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Gwagensteve
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:30 pm Posts: 12754 Location: Melbourne
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:15 pm |
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I've had a few discussions with people about building a full floating rear axle over the last few months. Rather than PM everyone individually, I just thought I'd put the build process up here. I won't start this off with a detailed analysis of the pros and cons of full float conversion - if you want one, you know why. This is a build based on a WT sierra WMS finished width. That's what my jig was built for. It's not a for sale thread. I do have adapter plates available at cost. if you are interested, and I can hook you up with axle lengths based on this cut. I'm not advertising my services as someone who will do this for you. Here's the start - A regular width Vitara rear axle housing with the coil seats and control arm/shock mounts removed. I remove the control arm/shock mount assembly with a plasma cutter. I cut the coil seats off with a 1mm cutting disc as they get re used and I like to keep some on hand. Here's the next step. Cut the bearing block off the SHORT side of the Vitara housing. This is the LEFT HAND SIDE with the diff up the same way it was in the vitara. Check this more than once before you fire up the grinder. Cut the weld out running straight down the bearing block edge. don't cut right through, just take the weld out. You'll want to measure accurately off of the existing axle tube end. There is no need to clean up the axletube on this side - it's getting cut down. Knock the bearing block off of the axle tube. Mark the tube 164mm back from the end of the existing tube. And cut the tube. It needs to be accurate, but not insanely accurate - the bearing block is a very tight fit so it would be almost impossible to put back on out of square. You'll need to polish the tube down a little to get the bearing block started when you tap it back on. Now you can knock in the seal adapter. This sits where the old wheelbearing used to go. I heated the bearing block and put the seal adapter in the freezer to install them. This is a blurry pic (sorry) but you can also see where I've ground off the old lip that used to locate the backing plate. It's not required. Do this carefully - you don't want to dig into the bearing block or the adapter plate won't go on flat. Here's a sharper photo of the other end before the seal adapter was pressed in. The spindle adapter can then be bolted to the bearing block using 8mm bolts. Torque these up to spec and polish the ends down so they are flush with the spindle adapter. This is when I set the housing up in my jig. I think it's possible to do this job without a jig, but you'd have to do LOTS Of measuring. Here's the adapter bolted to the bearing block and installed in the jig for welding. And the axlehousing sitting in the jig The bearing block welded to the axle tube. I weld the heads of the bolts down, just so they can't fall out and it looks all neat once it's been buffed up. You'll note this is the "long" side that hasn't been cut - that's the original axletube to bearing block weld. Then the adapter plate can be welded to the bearing block. Then the adapter plate can be welded to the bearing block. Whilst the axle is in the jig there's quite a bit more work to do though...
Last edited by Gwagensteve on Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Gwagensteve
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:30 pm Posts: 12754 Location: Melbourne
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:27 pm |
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In order for the offset to be to the driver's side to suit a sierra, the diff needs to be flipped upside down. The third member swaps without an issue, but the crownwheel will hit the diff cover. As a result, the cover has to be cut off and flipped over. Here's the cover removed, with the third member installed. This is why it makes sense to shave the diff at the same time - it's nearly completely apart. I fit a junk third member into the housing to keep it square. I also tack the pumpkin to the jig to help the axle stay true once the shave commences. I learnt to do this the hard way now the housing can be marked for cutting. And a piece of plate welded in over the cut. I used 5mm plate. Once the plate has been welded down on the outside, the third can be pulled and the plate welded on the inside. Now it's time to re install the cover. It's marked here to continue the shave. I try and pull the shave as high up the cover as practical so when you're reversing back off an obstacle with the diff on the ground it presents a smooth ramp to slide on. I actually cut this housing a bit too far, so I relieved the plate to clear the crownwheel and doubled it up. This is all 5mm plate. And with the closeout plate in place prior to welding We're not done yet though...
Last edited by Gwagensteve on Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Gwagensteve
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:30 pm Posts: 12754 Location: Melbourne
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:40 pm |
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So there's a couple of jobs left to do. Obviously the third member needs to come back out to allow welding the inside. It's also necessary to replace the oil baffles inside the housing, as the housing is now upside down. The existing baffles can stay in place - they'll do no harm. I just cut some thin material - 2mm or so and weld it in. Next on the agenda is to swap the breather and drain plug. Some people eliminate the drain plug when they shave, which is fine on a sierra where the third bolts in, but on a vitara where the third sits on studs, it won't drain. I cut the drain plug off with a cutting disc and reweld it beside the shave. It will leave 10mm of oil or so in the bottom of the housing, but it's better than leaving it full, and better than having the drain sitting on the flat bottom of the diff. A view from the inside. The last step is to fit a breather. I weld a scrap hole saw inner into where the drain was, and drill and tap it for a 1/4 BSP fitting. With a lick of paint, the axle is ready for fit up. [img]https://photos.smugmug.com/Floater/i-Ct5KtW7/0/5e42634c/X2/DSC_6365-X2.jpg/img] It will need brake line brackets to be installed and spring pads. I haven't done this on this housing as the car it's going into isn't complete. I hope this gives anyone who is interested an idea of whats ahead of them if they want to build one of these axles. I'm happy to answer any questions. Steve.
Last edited by Gwagensteve on Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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atari4x4
az supporter
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:30 pm Posts: 34843 Location: East Radelayed
Vehicle: SV420+SV620 Vitara's
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:46 pm |
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you had me at hello
_________________ You're just hating because you don't understand
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Joshyboy26
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:48 pm Posts: 814 Location: kinglake, VIC
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:52 pm |
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hells yeah! I guess the next question is what are the axles worth and are they hard to get.
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Gwagensteve
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:30 pm Posts: 12754 Location: Melbourne
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:58 pm |
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Us$550 a pair +freight for 300M from Performance Cryo in California.
Delivery is about a month plus freight time.
There's no stronger axle material than 300M.
Steve.
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tanshi
az supporter
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:30 pm Posts: 7719 Location: Brisbane
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Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:26 am |
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almost exactly what im doing. except im getting adapters at the ends made for CJ7 spindles
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SierraDan
az supporter
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:55 pm Posts: 9347 Location: Newcastle
Vehicle: G13BB Jimny
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Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:44 pm |
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Awesome. Cant wait.
_________________ mlm
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Gwagensteve
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:30 pm Posts: 12754 Location: Melbourne
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Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:19 pm |
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After Gregc broke an EN-26 floater shaft, we did lots of research based on the feasibility of upping the spline count.
I understand you're using 28 spline, which requires spindles with a larger bore than sierra spindles.
Because we were already starting with a complete floating axle housing, a spline upgrade was going to be very expensive. Stepping up to 31 spline based on our housings looked like a 2K exercise all up - shafts, custom spool, new spindle adapters, unit bearings, caliper mounts - and if we did all that and used anything less than 300M, we weren't really even gaining any shaft strength over 26 spline 300M and using everything else we had. Seemed crazy.
I agree there are good reasons to go to a larger bearing, bigger bore spindle if you were starting from scratch, but for us, we think the solution we have now should be adequate for our use.
Steve.
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tanshi
az supporter
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:30 pm Posts: 7719 Location: Brisbane
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Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:26 pm |
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i figure a $400 set of arb gears. a set of CJ7 hubs with drive flanges adapters are gonna cost me about $50 home made calaper mounts = steel and cutting wheels i'll end up with 28 splines into the diff at 30.5mm and 27 spline 29.5mm at the drive flange. If i can get the shafts cut from 300m it should be a nice strength increase.
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Joshyboy26
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:48 pm Posts: 814 Location: kinglake, VIC
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Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:16 am |
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how strong are vitara diffs? would they handle a bigger motor than the 1.6 or is that their upper limit much like the sierra diffs once running big tyres. why do you choose vitara diffs over say lux diffs. is it because they are lighter? surely hilux would be much stronger/ easier to get just throwing ideas out there
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Fatzook
az supporter
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:30 pm Posts: 14977 Location: The Hills
Vehicle: Vitara, NGV
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Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:05 am |
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The vitara rear is so close to hilux size, the difference is barely noticable.
_________________ 2013 GV 1998 SV420 ute
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Gwagensteve
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:30 pm Posts: 12754 Location: Melbourne
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Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:38 am |
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Joshyboy26 wrote: how strong are vitara diffs? would they handle a bigger motor than the 1.6 or is that their upper limit much like the sierra diffs once running big tyres. I'm not really sure what you're asking. In a GV they are handling twice the power of a G16B, but that's on small tyres and with very little gearing reduction. It's torque that destroys diffs, and that's achieved with gears. It's possible to break anything if you have enough torque at the wheels and drive accordingly, but these seem pretty durable. My car runs as much gearing as pretty much anything out there, it's very heavy for a sierra, and runs big tyres - my diff has been fine. Quote: why do you choose vitara diffs over say lux diffs. is it because they are lighter? I think Hilux diffs are the worst possible axle to put under a sierra. They have a poor strength to weight ratio (stock) semifloating rear axles, heavy rear drums, incorrect rear offset, and it's almost impossible to run them SPUA with NT spring spacing. I also don't want the added width, because it makes the car less capable - it just falls into the bottom of everyone else's ruts. I can also keep a WT front diff with a 5.12 ratio along with a vitara floater rear. I cant do that with Hilux, I'd be committed to running hilux front and rear, so that's lockers, wheels, gears, A bundera rear housing, steering arms, drag link, modified driveshafts, and what would I gain? More weight, more width, and less axle strength unless I spend up on Cromo's for a hilux. We have had absolutely no front end strength problems - we've running DT's and 35's for years. As we can't exceed 35" at the height we want to run, or with full headlights/grille, there's no point upgrading beyond a WT front diff. it's the sierra rear diff that becomes the weak link. Also, having the same bearings and brakes all round is nice from a serviceability point of view. Quote: surely hilux would be much stronger/ easier to get There's plenty of demand for hilux diffs, but zero demand for vitara rears. Every wrecker I've ever been to has had vitaras sitting there with complete rear diffs in them. They've generally never been off road, they're nearly always 5.12 ratio, and they've never had a hard life. That's not generally the case for hilux, especially 4.88 geared ones which are quite old now. I don't believe a hilux rear diff/axles is any stronger than the vitara rear as we build them now. I know this setup looks lots harder than throwing something bigger under the car, but we have our reasons Steve.
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jonfromhamilton
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:11 pm Posts: 411 Location: Pakenham
Vehicle: SJ51T
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Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:36 pm |
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As much info as I have soaked up from you in the past year Steve, I still have an ocean more to absorb.
kapai!
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madmacca
az supporter
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 8:46 am Posts: 928 Location: Lesmurdie W.A.
Vehicle: X-90 + Lwb Sierra + DeVitt +++
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Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:20 am |
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Nice job ,
what sort of $$ for the adaptor plate ?
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Maltese
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:06 am Posts: 1
Vehicle: suzuki samurai
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Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:37 am |
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Gwagensteve
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:30 pm Posts: 12754 Location: Melbourne
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Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:44 am |
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Around $70 for 2X seals, 2X seal adapters and 2X spindle adapter plates - just need to check pricing on seals.
Steve.
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madmacca
az supporter
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 8:46 am Posts: 928 Location: Lesmurdie W.A.
Vehicle: X-90 + Lwb Sierra + DeVitt +++
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Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:35 pm |
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Joshyboy26
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:48 pm Posts: 814 Location: kinglake, VIC
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Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:34 pm |
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thats cool, I wasnt dissing you at all just asking questions. thanks.
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Gwagensteve
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:30 pm Posts: 12754 Location: Melbourne
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:49 am |
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I didn't take as a diss at all josh, they're all good questions. If you were starting from scratch it might be worth looking at other axle options, but it doesn't make sense for us.
Steve.
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sierrajim
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:30 pm Posts: 345 Location: Hugging Royce behind the shelter shed
Vehicle: Suzuki Sierra
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:11 am |
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Never realized you had concrete on the floor of your shed Steve. Seems you might be lacking on numbers of projects taking up space.
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Gwagensteve
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:30 pm Posts: 12754 Location: Melbourne
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:13 am |
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They're all behind/around the shed Jim just not in it, for a change. Steve.
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tanshi
az supporter
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:30 pm Posts: 7719 Location: Brisbane
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:17 am |
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How did you go about contacting the guys in the US to make your shafts Steve?
I will need to get some made with different splines etc and people who work in 300M seem to be few and far between here.
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sideways
az supporter
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:53 pm Posts: 5886 Location: Northcliffe, W.A.
Vehicle: LJs, Sierra, Jimny, Swift.
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:27 pm |
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Gwagensteve
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:30 pm Posts: 12754 Location: Melbourne
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:26 pm |
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tanshi wrote: How did you go about contacting the guys in the US to make your shafts Steve?
I will need to get some made with different splines etc and people who work in 300M seem to be few and far between here. This is who made our axles. http://www.kickassoffroad.com/index.htmlhttp://www.performancecryogenics.com/contact.htmlDean Reed is the contact. He Is good to deal with. He makes truckloads of stuff in 300M. I don't know if he's worked in 28 spline before but you can only ask. I got onto him through Pirate 4X4 - a long time ago he made some 300M shafts for someone with a Spidertrax Sidewinder. Pricing compares so favourably with locally made axles that there's no reason IMHO not to go to 300M from Dean - It seems pointless to pay more for inferior material. I enquired widely about 300M when I started this process years ago and I found it too hard to source/get anyone to work it. I even tried Hollinger and Albins. The guy who made our axles reckoned he couldn't get anyone to heat treat it without bending it. Here's the shafts: They look a bit dirty - I'd had my greasy mitts all over them by this stage and they spent quite a while in transit due to the Christmas/new year break. Note the "wave" spline he uses on the diff end to spread out the stress raiser. I'll post some "finished" photos of the -ready-to-install axle (maybe) on the weekend so people can see the final assembly. Steve.
Last edited by Gwagensteve on Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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tanshi
az supporter
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:30 pm Posts: 7719 Location: Brisbane
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:41 pm |
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awesome thanks so much!!!
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tanshi
az supporter
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:30 pm Posts: 7719 Location: Brisbane
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Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:19 am |
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can any one find confirmation of the spline pressure angle of the 28 spline gm 7.5/7.6 diff?
all i can find is the gm8.5 diff at 45 degrees.
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tanshi
az supporter
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:30 pm Posts: 7719 Location: Brisbane
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Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:53 am |
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Gwagensteve
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:30 pm Posts: 12754 Location: Melbourne
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Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:40 pm |
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There's some interesting data in there Tanshi - some of which I've read before, but it was a looong time ago.
It supports why I don't like hilux axles. It also supports my theory that because we already have completed axles, it's hard to justify the complexity of a spline upgrade.
OK, maximum torque of a stock hilux shaft:
6248 ft/lb
Maximum torque of a 28 spline floater in 300M
8668ft/lb
Maximum torque of a 26 spline floater in 300M
8046 ft/lb
So, my rear axles are 30% stronger than stock hilux, and Tanshi, yours will be almost 40%
However, that's not the whole story, not by a long shot. A Hilux is a semifloating axle, so the more you load it from bending force (like from a bounce) the weaker it gets to twisting force. I've seen it written many times that converting to a full floating axle of the same size adds 40% in strength over a semifloating axle of the same spline. That might be optimistic, but lets assume it's true.
Lets also assume you put 4340 axles in your hilux rear end. They're $300 from TG + shipping.
4340 is 1.9 times stronger than stock material.
So, a toyota rear axle in 4340 should fail at 11871 ft/lb, which is super impressive. However, this is where it gets complicated. These figures are for failure in a jig, which doesn't bend the axle, it just breaks it clean, and it's why there's no distinction made in that data between semi and full float.
so, I'm going to assume that a semifloat axle looses up to 40% of its strength if its bent hard whilst being driven, like you're landing a bounce under power. I've broken stock sierra axles like this, and it's how Gregc broke his EN-26 rear floater.
So that drops the 11871 back to 7123 ft/lb
Compare the weight, and ultimate cost of a hilux rear axle with discs, gears, locker and 4340 axles, and it's why I think that a vitara based floater is a very good option.
The provisos are that if you're running a buggy like Ethan's or Appsies, you're not going to get away with suzuki stuff - 37-40" stickies and rock are going to exceed 8000 ft/lb, not to mention the front which is some way under 8K ft/lb, even with DT's, but you might not get away with hilux axles either, and need to look at a toyota full float axle like a 60 series, which I think are superior for suuzki buggy use.
A word on comparitive front end strength. The best DT's are 4340, and 26 spline throughout. That takes the inner axles up to 6794 Ft/lb. Stock hilux inner axles fail at 5000 ft/lb on Bobby Long's (RIP) axle breaking machine. Once again, you need to go to Cromo hilux axles to beat a 4340 DT suzuki front for axle, and possibly even CV strength.
How cool are hilux axles now for your 35" tyred, trail car? No thanks.
Steve.
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tanshi
az supporter
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:30 pm Posts: 7719 Location: Brisbane
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Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:56 pm |
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i only got 5328 for 26 spline 300M shafts, but i guess thats relative to what material you say stock zook axles are. i made my calcs based on them being 1541H as the tensile strength of 181000 psi, comes closest to the lock it up off road ft/lbs rating.
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