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Post Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 7:14 am 
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heres a tip that i use:
standard paper type filters with a home made foam outer, i went to clark rubber, purchased filter foam cut it to shapoe and had a ring made up, joined it with the sowing machine and some material, now when i go bush and its dusty i just take the foam outer off and dust it out and put it back on. 99% of the time a standard filter is best in a 4x4 situation. keep the K&N's for the dyno runs or race application.

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Post Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 7:41 am 
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That seems like a pretty good idea eldo - then the oiling/cleanliness of the foam is much less important - the "baseline" protection of the engine is still equal to the manufacturer's specification.

A quick word about the Donaldson precleaners - I'm not 100% sure that a sierra flows enough air to make the 6" one with 3" outlet I posted the picture of work properly. I'll report back once we've fitted a hi-ace filter to the grey car I posted the photo of (at the moment it runs a 1.0 filter - a quick fix at the end of a long engine conversion)

Steve.

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Post Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 8:11 am 
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my 2 5/8 jobbie certainly works.
Image

a teaspoon's worth of crap in 6 days.
Image

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Post Posted: Fri May 28, 2010 12:06 am 
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Um micron, on a mac, option+m

There are some very good power gains from letting your engine breath in, and out, better.

Manufacturers only do as they feel they make the most return out of.

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:49 am 
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Gwagensteve wrote:
A quick word about the Donaldson precleaners - I'm not 100% sure that a sierra flows enough air to make the 6" one with 3" outlet I posted the picture of work properly.
Steve.


Ive done a bit of research
part numbers with outlet sizes.
h002042 1.75" and rated flow 80 cfm
h002040 2" and rated flow 90 cfm
h001823 2" and rated flow 110 cfm
h001250 2.25" and rated flow 130 cfm
hoo1251 2.5" and rated flow 150 cfm

Restriction on all of these at rated flow is 3" or 0.1 psi

1.3
RPM-----Vol Efficiency----CFM
2000--------0.80-----------37
2500--------0.75-----------43
3000--------0.75-----------52
3500--------0.70-----------56
4000--------0.70-----------64


1.6
RPM-----Vol Efficiency----CFM
2000--------0.80-----------45
2500--------0.75-----------53
3000--------0.75-----------64
3500--------0.70-----------69
4000--------0.70-----------79


So Steve is correct the 1.3 or 1.6 do not move enough air to make the 3" ones work as designed.
Other than that, I don't want to tell anyone they are wrong.
And I havent decided yet, what I plan to use.

EDIT: dyslexic spelling
EDIT: Included volumetric effiency into the calculations.
Rough Volumetric efficiency, but close enough for what we need.


Last edited by jdk81 on Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:07 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Post Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:15 am 
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mine is just over 2" and it separates pollen out of the air.

will measure it properly tomorrow but i think it is about 60mm

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:34 am 
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Undersizing, will cause excesive restriction at high rpm, but better air scrubbing.
(Remember dyson based his vacuum cleaners on air scrubbers like this which have been around for a long time)

Oversizing, less restriction, but poor scrubbing at low rpm.

For a 1.3 or a 1.6 I would probably choose either of the 2" cleaners, probably what ever was cheapest (Obvious I am a sierra owner).

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:50 pm 
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Nice work jdk81 Armsup

Obviously off-the-shelf snorkels use 3" piping so that's the conventional size to purchase.

I don't think I'd choose a pre cleaner that's rated flow was equal to a 1.3 at 4-5K. I think you would notice a very significant loss in engine performance once you exceeded rated flow.

I used to run a 3" on a non-turbo 2.8 diesel hilux and I could feel the restriction at high revs - it was very noticeable.

Remember too that these pre cleaners are generally used in industrial (diesel) applications where engine speed is effectively constant. Obviously, under those circumstances a pre cleaner can be picked very specifically. Our use is a lot more varied than that.

Steve.

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:36 pm 
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Here is a question to ask.

What do all the performance cars run, like bugatti veyron, Mcleran f1, ferrari, lambogini even to a lesser extend some locally made high performance cars like the HSV's and the high end fords???

I dont mean aftermarket but I mean off the factory floor where they are getting as much out of a car as they can, and price isnt an option???

I know suzuki's are not HIGH performance vehicles too.

Me I would stick with factory as I am a lazy fuck and oiling and shit doesnt interest me, and I destroyed a 2H diesel in about 50000kms with a K&N filter. I think it just didnt fit right and was just going over the top.

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:39 pm 
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Steve wat size would u recommend for a 1.6 vit and a 2.2l td mahindra pikup

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:58 pm 
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http://www.trutlands.com/tav_main.php?tav=430scud_15
http://www.trutlands.com/product_info.p ... ts_id=9372

ferrari 430 scuderia (parts breakdown)
and ferrari 360 (filter)

both filters are (guess what) paper
maybe ferrari are cost cutting ehh

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:06 pm 
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I have modified the above info including volumetric efficiency.

Found more information,

To further complicate things....
Manufacturers indicate that these dont work properly after 80 km/h due to the aerodynamics of the vehicle affecting the flow into the pre cleaner.


And 3" is signifantly too large for a 1.3/1.6. (rated flow is 320 cfm)

h000820 3" rated cfm is 320 (common one)
h001249 3" rated cfm is 170 (not the normal has smaller bowl)

FYI

Got bar work a 2.2l TD the cfm at rpms above are (124, 155, 186, 217, 249) #assume no intercooler

Steve 2.8L engine is (84, 105, 125, 147, 168) cfm

Notes on Diesel Vol. Efficiency
NA Diesel = 0.85
Turbo Diesel = 1.6
Turbo Diesel with Intercooler = 1.85

EDIT: corrections

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:13 pm 
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I think you're a little harsh on the oiled foam style filters when putting them in the same basket as a cotton gauze type Steve. Unifilter for example are designed for offroad conditions and my mechanic and I have data from oil analysis results to show that they are by far and beyond better than a K&N typre cotton filter. A K&N actually showed very similar results in particulates to the test vehicle when it had a major intake leak post filter.

Paper probably filters finer (if in good condition) than oiled foam, I'm not doubting that. But I would hardly think that a (in good condition) oiled foam filter would shorten the life span of engine otherwise treated properly. Things like cold start abuse and poor oil quality would have a much more negative effect on the life span of the engine than a working oiled foam filter.

But yes, it is always going to be some form of a trade off flow/filter quality and one that I am happy to live with. My offroad/daily driver Sierra runs a Unifilter and my low use, never offroad 500hp+ V8 still runs a K&N.

What you said about pipe flow, intake tract restriction and airbox size are all very true though. Too often people just throw a high flow element in the standard box and ignore the flow characteristics of the box itself and intake piping. Both of my cars have modified air boxes and intake piping for more flow.

So in short, I guess. "High flow filters, be aware and use at your own risk" is the moral of the story.

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:15 pm 
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The 'rating' I would assume refers to how much air they will pass before they start to become a restriction, is there information anywhere indicating what the minimum airflow required is to operate?

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:28 pm 
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They work best at rated flow, with the 3" of water drop in pressure (0.1psi restriction).

No indication of minimum flow. As they work on centrifugal force, the closer to rated is ideal.
At lower flow rate, the larger particles will still spin out, however the smaller dust will not scrub out until closer to the rated flow. Lower mass, so needs higher higher velocity to spin out of the air.

If really fine dust was a common occurence, I would probably undersize it a little.
If dust wasnt a day to day basis, I would over size it to minimise restriction.
If its somewhere inbetween obviously, I would go somewhere inbetween.
The result of these not filtering correctly is we get a bit more stuff in our air box, and maybe on the air filter.
Not such a big deal.

If we undersize it, we will lose a bit of top end power, unless dust is a major concern, I wouldnt want to lose too much.

Some pre cleaners on ebay (truck/tractor store) for $25... damn site cheaper than stock filters, let alone any "performance" foam filters.


Last edited by jdk81 on Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:44 pm 
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OIled foam are crap for dusty conditions. They clog up far too quickly and become very restrictive. When they are fresh and clean they are briliant but thats alot of effort to keep them clean.


I ran a weber with a snorkel for quite some time and everyone knows a weber hates restrictive intakes. well with an Oiled foam filter it would run ok for about 1000kms untill the filter clogged up. once it clogged up it would start to suck the dust around the filter.

The paper filter would last up to about 15,000kms before it would cause problems.
I found with the oiled filters, dust would stick to the oiled outer and block up. The inner foam cell would hardly get any dust.

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:49 pm 
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Built4thrashing wrote:
OIled foam are crap for dusty conditions. They clog up far too quickly and become very restrictive. When they are fresh and clean they are briliant but thats alot of effort to keep them clean.


I ran a weber with a snorkel for quite some time and everyone knows a weber hates restrictive intakes. well with an Oiled foam filter it would run ok for about 1000kms untill the filter clogged up. once it clogged up it would start to suck the dust around the filter.

The paper filter would last up to about 15,000kms before it would cause problems.
I found with the oiled filters, dust would stick to the oiled outer and block up. The inner foam cell would hardly get any dust.


If you spent 5 minutes reading any material on oiled filters you would realise they are supposed to hold all the dust on the outside, makes no difference to the flow at all

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:36 pm 
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royce wrote:
If you spent 5 minutes reading any material on oiled filters you would realise they are supposed to hold all the dust on the outside, makes no difference to the flow at all


Really? So all the dust that sticks to the filter makes no difference to flow? How do they manage that?

Steve.

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:58 pm 
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Gwagensteve wrote:
royce wrote:
If you spent 5 minutes reading any material on oiled filters you would realise they are supposed to hold all the dust on the outside, makes no difference to the flow at all


Really? So all the dust that sticks to the filter makes no difference to flow? How do they manage that?

Steve.


Dunno, I dont make em I am only going on what I read

you dont get any dirt inside the foam, its trapped on the outside as it makes contact with the oil, youll notice on a foam filter in a sierra that goes through a lot of dust that the section of filter right at the inlet to that airbox cops a hammering and eventually youll end up with clumps of oily dirt built up on the face of the filter and sliding off into the airbox

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Post Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:22 am 
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This might interest some.

I have a 1985 Peugeot 505 GTi. 2.2l petrol 4 cyl.

It has a centrifugal precleaner and the biggest air filter I have ever seen fitted to a car, all factory fitted under the bonnet. Paper filter of course.

The car has done over 600'000kms, original engine, never even had the head off (according to the one previous owner) and doesn't blow smoke or anything. Others on the various French car forums have over 800'000kms on the original engine.

I can't help but think that the epic mileage is vastly due to the brilliant air filtration.

Similarly, the African guys (where there's literally millions of 50Xs, they have different engines to mine too) reckon one fitted with a paper filter will get around 600'000kms where as one fitted with the oil bath fliter will get closer to 800'000kms.

What the cone thingy that Toyotas have on the top of their snorkels?

Thanks

Hayden

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Post Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:42 am 
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May I ask.

What if you are go get a bit of muddy water in your filter? And you aren't supposed to "disturb them". How are you to know.
I took my intake hose off yesterday and found fine dust particles throughout it. Filter is less then 5000km old.

How are we to know?

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Post Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:17 am 
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its coming in through the seal between the airbox and the afm, I had the same and just siliconed it in

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Post Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:03 am 
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Well i just checked my paper filter " disturbed it" ran my finger along it like you do to the fence railings and low and behold dirt and dust fell out. So in seeing this it says that dirt and dust still collects in the folds hence "blocking" flow.

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Post Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:00 pm 
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Ok so completely off everybodies rants and bickerings. I
Have a big cyclonic filter box sitting in my garage...


It runs a filter 3 times bigger than my oem one. If I whack it on the roof with a pre cleaner on top and just run some stainless pipe down to the T/B, delete
The original filter box. Will this be a better setup than the oem setup?

The cyclonic cleaner had a 3" outlet.

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Post Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:47 pm 
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stocker wrote:
Will this be a better setup than the oem setup?


In short, yes.
But it will be overkill.

Take to the stock air box with some selastic and seal it good.
Install a suitable donaldson typre pre cleaner and it will be more than sufficient.

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Post Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 6:56 pm 
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This is one for the engineers.

what about fitting a restrictor in the pipe at the top???? inside the pipe some sort of flow restrictor like dropping it down to a 2 inch pipe so it will change the airflow speed???

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Post Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:35 pm 
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will only be faster at that point, wont make it pull anymore air through the precleaner

I have one here doing nothing, I might see if I cant come up with something to try it at different airflow rates

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:56 am 
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Fire hazard wrote:
my 2 5/8 jobbie certainly works.


I ran a 2.5 inch pre cleaner before my standard 13a system , i noticed i had to be very close to WOT before the things started to spin in there.
in short it only really come into effect on the hwy as im conservative with my right foot in the bush.

mine shattered with a very minimal impact on an embankment. it was positioned like sheps. i would not run one in that position again.

For a small town girl like shep i think it would be a good investment but for a city boy like me , probs not.

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:42 am 
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86slowsierra wrote:
Fire hazard wrote:
my 2 5/8 jobbie certainly works.


I ran a 2.5 inch pre cleaner before my standard 13a system , i noticed i had to be very close to WOT before the things started to spin



real world experience confirming the calcs above.

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Post Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:08 am 
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I opened my air box last nght to change the dirty dust filled filter and found a huntsman curled up. I think wer both gave each other a fright.
Needless to say, ill be spider bombing the car tonight :D

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