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Post Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:15 am 
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atari4x4 wrote:
:goodtech:


Lol dont get me started i could write so much more on the subject. Sorta like breathing for me in my line of work.

Glad there isnt any PCB work on zooks otherwise id be here for a while longer yabbering away :lol:

seriously though if you want more info i could dig some more info, aus standards, and pics if the interest was there.

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Post Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:53 am 
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what kind of $$ are the solder sleeve's? and are they worth it?

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Post Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:20 am 
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jonno_racing wrote:
what kind of $$ are the solder sleeve's? and are they worth it?


around 15 bucks for 25 i think.

are they worth it? entirely up to you at the end of the day... whats worth it to me might not be to you, ive spent a lot of money on things ppl dont think are worthwhile, but i obviously thought they were.

like i said last post i havent tried them yet so cannot evaluate compared to what i have used in the past. best off trying and see for yourself, then tell us all here :helloo:

if i werent on shift atm id go down right now and test for you all to see, can it wait a week n a half till i get home?

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:31 am 
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i do a fair few efi looms so might get a bit costly when splicing that many wires.. but i am defiantly interested in trying them.. i will get some Monday.

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:38 am 
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I've used the sleeves heaps over the years. Have only used Narva ones which are decent quality. Never had an issue melting insulation and always had good coverage of solder over the join. I only use a small gas weller with the heat gun attachment or blow torch attachment. This is what I carry around with me and is sufficient for most jobs using small conductors. The bands either end seal off the join completely too. I say for small jobs like stereo wiring and hooking up a uhf they are perfect.

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Post Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:03 pm 
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i did my headlight relay upgrade using supercheap brand crimps, and 50amp wire. theres about 4 crimps in the whole circuit, with 3M of wire, and theres (practically) no voltage drop. as for strength, i tested each crimp i did by trying to pull it off the wire. if it came undone it was unacceptable to me anyway... 6 months down the track, after lots of mud, a few deep water crossings & plenty of beach work, im yet to have any even start coming loose.

i'm not going to argue that its better than soldering, im only saying that IMO crimping isnt a problem if done properly.

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Post Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:18 pm 
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i agree, the info i am raising is from my training and they require a VERY high standard of wiring, so its really up to the individual.

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Post Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:01 pm 
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Just to throw in my 2c, I also come from an industrial electrical background, where soldering is pretty uncommon. In fact most industrial electricians wouldn't even bother to keep a soldering iron in their kit.

If a crimp is properly made, ie the right crimp lug is used on the right sized wire and using the right crimping tool, it will be every much as good and arguably better than a soldered connection. Different industries will have different standards depending on their own requirements, aviation has theirs where it sounds like soldering is preferred. The boating industry has pretty much banned solder joints. The automotive industry is pretty unregulated so it is no surprise to see a mix.

In mass production crimping is generally used for two main reasons - 1. it is far quicker and 2. it is easy to QA. With soldering you are relying on the skill of the person making the joint, which can be highly variable. Whereas with crimps you can control the tool, the lug, and the wire size and pretty much get the exact same result each time.

As to what you use in a vehicle really comes down to preference. I personally use crimps for any termination work, but for splices I would solder for small wire sizes (<6 sq mm) and crimp for anything bigger. It is worth mentioning here that I use quality mains rated crimps (not the cheap automotive grade ones) and ratchet crimpers for the small stuff and the larger crimps are done with my hex crimper.

All splices and non-insulated terminations are covered with glue lined heatshrink, so accidental shorting and corrosion are not a problem.

Some good reading about the boating standard here - http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/wire_termination
And a very long discussion about it here - http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-main ... ering.html
And of course my 101 if you haven't read it already here - http://myswag.org/forum/index.php?topic=2236.0

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:18 pm 
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Speaking of crimpers etc, where is a good place to get tubular cable lugs from? I'm talking the big ones for battery cables etc.

I have a crimping tool, i'm just after some lugs to suit 25mm^2 cable.

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:26 pm 
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Damo wrote:
Speaking of crimpers etc, where is a good place to get tubular cable lugs from? I'm talking the big ones for battery cables etc.

I have a crimping tool, i'm just after some lugs to suit 25mm^2 cable.


How many do you want? Hole size? I'll send you some :wink:

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:34 pm 
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Rusho wrote:
How many do you want? Hole size? I'll send you some :wink:


PM'd :D

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:53 pm 
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may as well put in my 2c
I'm from a refrigeration background, when it comes to terminations we always crimp as compressors "kick" on start up and with any kind of added head or solid joins in the cable will fatigue and cause major dramas. where as with crimps as long as its good quality it will last. plus its heaps quicker!

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Post Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:01 pm 
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Scales wrote:
coming from an aviation sparkys background i can say that crimps are ok in some situations, but they need to be environmentally shielded correctly (and of course applied correctly) in order to be a reliable connection. That is, generally speaking in the automotive world... heatshrink. This ensures minimal corrosion impact on the crimps themselves. there are a heap of other guidelines that make crimps ok to use (i wont go into, there are literally books and books of wiring standards that i had to adhere to) but needless to say, most of these are NOT adhered to in the automotive world, and I would not use them on my car as the ones available to the public are pretty piss weak in my eyes, and most people dont have the knowledge or training to do the job to a high standard. (anyone can do a dodgy crimp though)

Crimps are in my opinion an electrically dodgy way of completing a circuit. there is an inherent voltage drop over a crimp that is accumulative with the more crimps you use on a circuit (one of the reasons the suzuki's require the headlight harness upgrade). They also damage the wire each time they are used which effects the overall performance of the circuit. and the crimps available to most people will fall apart far easier than a solder join. I also think they look messy also compared to a PROPERLY soldered join (which WONT corrode if soldered/cleaned correctly) and protected with the correct coloured heatshrink.


So long story short, i think crimps have theyre place for bush mechanic style repairs. but I think you should learn to solder correctly... take the time to tin your wires and do the necessary prep work to make the join seamless. and protect it well with good quality heatshrink, no supercheap crap. In some cases I use a glue heatshrink that has a sort of hot glue on the inside of the heatshrink that totally seals the solder join from the atmosphere, so no corrosion and supports the wire so well its almost like the join wasnt even there. It may take an extra 5 mins to do each connection but the end product is SOOO much better looking and will last a lifetime. having half a dozen crimps hanging out of the loom is pretty unattractive.

One more point, in both cases the job is pointless unless the harness/loom is routed in a manner that protects your work. IE. no hard radius bends, properly supported harness with clamps/straps/zipties/whatever. Avoid sharp edges and use spi-wrap if you cannot avoid these edges, its amazing how quick and edge can slice your wires with vibration.


FYI im talking crimps as in in-line crimps for splicing in wires etc. I still use lug crimps and plug crimps for end-terminations for earth points etc. Occasionally i will solder these depending on the situation.

one more thing. hypothetically, would you think electricity would prefer 2 pieces of conductor welded together? or just riveted? and whats stronger out of the 2?? food for thought....


x2

I was an auto elec and couldn't agree with Scales more.

I spent weeks and weeks learning to solder properly as crimps were out of the question.

I know alot of you will say "how do I hook up a relay without crimp terminals"....... buy a relay plug, thats what they are for and they do the job alot better.

Crimps will always be the lazy way to join wires. I am forever fixing mates cars with elec problems form crappy connecting crimp terminals. Over time corrosion on the terminals eliminates any metal to metal contact and causes a disconection. especially if the terminals are getting wet, muddy etc.

Plus they look shiate!

You still need to use crimps for end-terminations for earth points etc, but I always solder these to ensure a solid connection that will not fail over time.

A properly soldered joint inside a heatshrink sheath will not corrode or break unless there is some other external factors involved

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Post Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:51 am 
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so you never have problems with excessive vibration causing metal fatigue in the solder joints?

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Post Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:08 am 
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I soldered and crimped hundreds of leads to medical specs and the choice was always determined by the purpose and lead diameter.

Thin cables I always soldered by making a fish hook type bend on each lead, hooking them together, twisting, soldered and heatshrink. The best form of pull/bend strain relief which I have yet to see fail.

Thicker cables would be quick bulky using this hook and twist procedure so generally I just tightly twisted them together, soldered and heatshink.

Crimping thin cables doesn't provide as much strain relief and can fail over time (i.e. thin audio cables in your car)

Thicker cables again (i.e. automotive power cables) I would use heavy duty crimps, quality ratchet tool and heatshrink. It takes too much heat to solder which can damage the insulation unless you are prepared to spend quite a lot on high quality cable.

What I am trying to say is crimping or soldering is never better for everything, which is used depends on what is being used and where it is being used.

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Post Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:56 am 
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rustyzook wrote:
so you never have problems with excessive vibration causing metal fatigue in the solder joints?


I have not had any problems yet.

I have even owned / raced a few rally cars and had no problems with all the joints being soldered. I made the wiring harnesses from scratch and I even soldered the wires to the ignition switches and covered the terminals with heatshrink.

I think that those vehicles would have been exposed to a lot of vibration but I never found any faults.

In saying that, if your solder joint is dry, then you will have problems every time.

This is just my preference / opinion, I'm not trying to tell anyone that they are wrong.

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Post Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:57 pm 
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Ok.

Yep That is some Great Tech above. about soldering, perhaps you could include a few steps on the preparation of the soldered joint that might help people understand the lengths that some people go to for the perfect joint (no pun intended), so that people can Appreciate, and perhaps better their own technique.


On the other hand, i don't feel the need to take the absolute ump-teenth to make the perfect joint in my zookie, at the end of the day, we are only using non-weather proof plugs on our vehicles looms anyway.

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Post Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:20 pm 
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Gus....what happened to the soldering 101 thread??

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Post Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:33 pm 
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it's in good tech where it belongs :wink:

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=15301

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Post Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:08 pm 
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I used to work for a special vehicle manufacturer, both crimping and soldering were used as in an OEM loom. All the little white plugs throughout all auto looms are really just a neat way of holding together a bunch of uninsulated crimps. Both methods have their place if done correctly.

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:26 pm 
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Thought I'd throw this in the mix as I just made a new loom and used these throughout all the join points that weren't soldered.
Sick of dealing with shite crimps I ordered these, took a bit to arrive but well worth the wait - awesome piece of kit!

http://www.vintageconnections.com/

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:30 pm 
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tmb99 wrote:
Thought I'd throw this in the mix as I just made a new loom and used these throughout all the join points that weren't soldered.
Sick of dealing with shite crimps I ordered these, took a bit to arrive but well worth the wait - awesome piece of kit!

http://www.vintageconnections.com/


How are they any different to normal crimps???

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Post Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:09 am 
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Over here solder sleeves aren't allowed for military wiring because its pretty much impossible to check for a good joint.

Good link that one, I don't see exactly which connectors you're referring to but I do have an SL175 to restore -)

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Post Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:28 am 
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In my experience most people who say crimps are "better" and "more reliable" generally really dont know how to solder properly. plenty of my mates have no idea how to properly solder, and the joints fail, so they get crimps with those crappy super cheap auto crimping tooles (not the ratchet ones) which also fail!

Also they use shit soldering irons, that take hours to warm up, don't hold their heat, and dont have a quality tip on them. DO NOT EVER BUY A $10 SOLDERING IRON.

Once you get a proper iron you dont go back. Mine was only $100 and its fantastic.

My dad is a marine electrician, and he will solder things that can be soldered, if he is joining wires and there is room to put it, he will put in a terminal block that has the little screws and then the clips to hold the wire still (and a little cover to protect it all, both dirt and also protection of the joint so it doesnt electrocute anyone). And then generally on the back of all the instruments he uses (guages, switches etc) its crimped femal spade connections onto the "male" spade on the back of the instrument, but these must be protected from the weather. He has basically taught me how to wire things up so most of my knowledge comes from him.

For soldering, you really have to get both bits of wire, twist the strands lightly to keep it together, apply solder to each bit of wire ensuring that the wire has solder all the way through it, then once you have gotten both wires saturated with solder (for the ~10mm or so of wire you are joining) you bring them together parellel and melt them together forming a nice joint.

If the solder hasnt penetrated both bits of wire, then you risk the wire splitting appart once its soldered, and if you dont melt the two bits of saturated wire together properly its easy to get a "dry joint", where it is stuck together, but the solder hasnt melted together.

A bit of heatstrink over the top and then tie down the wire to something so it doesnt flap about.

I think the best bit of advice is to minimise joints at all, especially between old and new wire, and also different sizes and typres of wire. I find standard oem wire doensnt seem solder very nicely anyway, compared with new stuff.

As for crimps, they have their place too, i do like to add a bit of solder after i have crimped it on, not sure why, but i usually have the soldering iron out when im crimping so might as well...

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Post Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:40 pm 
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Rusho wrote:
How are they any different to normal crimps???
Brass open barrel bullet terminals with a soft gel insulator. With the specific crimping tool they worked great. They look like the OEM fittings and take up less room. When pressed together they 'click' into place and the soft gel insulator helps to lock them together - to the point they're quite hard to pull apart. The insulator also weather proofs them to a certain point. Plus the addition of good double and triple connectors my loom came out looking great.

I'm not sure what 'normal' is to you, but it's a hell of lot better than what I find in auto shops like narva or the crappy supercheap SCA brand I once made the mistake of buying. If you or anyone else has advice on where to get good crimps locally that would be handy for us average punters.

ImageImageImage

Rhinoman wrote:
I don't see exactly which connectors you're referring to but I do have an SL175 to restore -)
As I did the whole loom on a 75 xs650 I went with the CK-2 kit on their kits page. All I have left is a few bullets and lots of eyelet terminals.

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