Lockright front. Selectable rear.
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| Weld front diff ?? http://auszookers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=51678 |
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| Author: | andrew [ Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Weld front diff ?? |
Ive just got my first zook on the road.. and im thinking of welding the front diff. Its pretty well stock 2in suspension lift 215 75 15 muddies. Its not really a daily driver and mostly i do off road. I figured front would be better to weld than rear ?? |
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| Author: | Gwagensteve [ Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Weld front diff ?? |
No. Front welded brings the suck. |
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| Author: | ninjamoses [ Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Weld front diff ?? |
I concur. My autolocker in the front is playing up and has locked on at the moment. Makes the car a heap of shit to drive, steering locks solid as soon as you hit a grippy surface. Getting out to unlock a hub just to make it around a corner isn't my idea of fun. |
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| Author: | AckerDackerly [ Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Weld front diff ?? |
Let's look at welded diffs... (Pardon the detailed explanation as other readers not familiar with the technology might need help understanding the discussion...) A welded differential eliminates the differential effect that allows the wheels on the axle to turn at an independent rate. This is important as all four wheels actually rotate at different speeds during a turn to the left or the right through the magic of "open" differentials. A welded differential will make it necessary to use extra force to turn and hold the steering wheel when turning. On the other hand, if you are driving on slippery surfaces or you have one wheel off the ground, a welded differential will always transmit power to the other wheel on the axle that is in contact with the ground! A welded differential makes the vehicle hard to steer/control but easy (in a perverted way of thinking) to drive in 4wd mode through situations where a wheel loses traction. Welding the front axle sort of works when you have the ability to lock and unlock the wheel hubs. When the hubs are unlocked, you can drive the truck on the road normally in two-wheel drive. Locked hubs let you wrestle (!!!) the truck down the trail in four wheel drive. Driving on the road with locked hubs in 4wd is a dangerous idea on many levels! [EDITED FOR ACCURACY 01-16-16] A slightly better alternative is to buy and install a device that selectively locks/unlocks the differential under varying operational conditions. Known by their brand names like Lock-Rites, etc., these are cheap and popular devices that work better than a welded differential or it's manufactured cousin the "spool". Even better would be a Limited Slip Differential (LSD - hehe) which does a much smoother job of locking up the differential under varying operational conditions. Unfortunately, LSDs are hard to find for the Suzuki 4wd product line. [END EDIT] I have a Lock-Rite in the front axle of my Samurai (ie. "WT Sierra"). It is handy to have on the trail but makes steering in tight places with power applied a pain in the arse. In summation: To quote Gwagensteve- No. Front welded brings the suck. I hope that this helps! |
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| Author: | Gwagensteve [ Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Weld front diff ?? |
Lock rights/Spartan lockers/Detroit lockers do not selectively lock. They selectively unlock. They are also poor offroad in the front when descending or on slick surfaces, where there is insufficient torque from the over speeding wheel to unlock the mechanism. At which point they drive just as badly as a welded diff. My own car is spooled (same as welded) rear and air locked front. With my front locker in my car is almost undrivable even with power steering. |
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| Author: | DC3PTIKON [ Thu Jan 07, 2016 2:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Weld front diff ?? |
Auto lockers are unlocked at rest or coast conditions. They only lock when the cross pin is under load, whether it be acceleration or deceleration using engine braking. |
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| Author: | alien [ Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Weld front diff ?? |
I agree on front locker... when mine's locked, steering and low speed is hard work, turning circle is greatly reduced and you get understeer and skid steer when the wheels spin, which can put you on some really spooky side angles when the whole front end slides sideways on a climb! |
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| Author: | henno [ Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Weld front diff ?? |
I'd take a welded rear and air locked front every day of the week over the reverse. |
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| Author: | fordem [ Fri Jan 08, 2016 7:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Weld front diff ?? |
DC3PTIKON wrote: Auto lockers are unlocked at rest or coast conditions. They only lock when the cross pin is under load, whether it be acceleration or deceleration using engine braking. I have in front of me, the Lockright owner's & installation manuals - I can post the exploded diagram if you're not familiar with it - in the rest position the bias springs push the couplers outward forcing them to engage with the drivers/side gears. The test procedure from the installation manual reads as follows. 2. Put the transmission and transfer case in gear to lock the drive shaft. 3. Rotate one of the tires in the forward direction with your hand until it stops, then hold it. That side of the LOCK-RIGHT is now locked. The vehicle is at rest with the engine off, the cross pin is not loaded - if the locker was "unlocked" the wheel would not stop, it would continue to turn freely - it turns just far enough for the dogs on the face of the coupler and the driver to engage and then stops - the bias spring is pushing the coupler outward forcing it to engage with the driver/side gear. Yes - when you apply torque the cross pin forces the coupler to engage the driver/side gear and the vehicle moves, but even when there is no torque applied, the coupler is still forced to engage the driver/side gear, just with a lot less pressure so that if sufficient force is applied by the wheel it can overcome the force of the bias spring, disengage the coupler and ratchet past it. |
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| Author: | Gwagensteve [ Fri Jan 08, 2016 7:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Weld front diff ?? |
That was my understanding Fordem. One of my problems with ratcheting (un)lockers is that on very slick surfaces and with a light car, the overspeeding tyre can't provide enough torque to unlock the locker. This might be partially due to setup, but it's been my experience nonetheless. |
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| Author: | DC3PTIKON [ Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Weld front diff ?? |
fordem wrote: DC3PTIKON wrote: Auto lockers are unlocked at rest or coast conditions. They only lock when the cross pin is under load, whether it be acceleration or deceleration using engine braking. I have in front of me, the Lockright owner's & installation manuals - I can post the exploded diagram if you're not familiar with it - in the rest position the bias springs push the couplers outward forcing them to engage with the drivers/side gears. The test procedure from the installation manual reads as follows. 2. Put the transmission and transfer case in gear to lock the drive shaft. 3. Rotate one of the tires in the forward direction with your hand until it stops, then hold it. That side of the LOCK-RIGHT is now locked. The vehicle is at rest with the engine off, the cross pin is not loaded - if the locker was "unlocked" the wheel would not stop, it would continue to turn freely - it turns just far enough for the dogs on the face of the coupler and the driver to engage and then stops - the bias spring is pushing the coupler outward forcing it to engage with the driver/side gear. Yes - when you apply torque the cross pin forces the coupler to engage the driver/side gear and the vehicle moves, but even when there is no torque applied, the coupler is still forced to engage the driver/side gear, just with a lot less pressure so that if sufficient force is applied by the wheel it can overcome the force of the bias spring, disengage the coupler and ratchet past it. Look at the instructions and what you just wrote in contradicting itself, the crosspin IS loaded even with the engine off. '2. Put the transmission and transfer case in gear to lock the drive shaft.' What you are doing here is causing the pinion to 'Yes' load the crosspin as the transmission locking the pinion so is wont turn, therefore simulating acceleration or engine braking deceleration which will lock the LOCK-RIGHT. So as I said, unless the crosspin is loaded auto lockers are 'unlocked' until drive or resistance (locked transmission, deceleration) is applied. If you jack both rear wheels, put the car in neutral and have two people turn the rear wheels in opposite directions, yes the LOCK-RIGHT will ratchet and operate as an open diff, and without load in a rest position, be unlocked. |
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| Author: | Gwagensteve [ Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Weld front diff ?? |
Sorry mate you're off track with this. The lockers default position is locked. Only the application of torque from an overspeeding wheel unlocks it. Steve. |
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| Author: | DC3PTIKON [ Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Weld front diff ?? |
Gwagensteve wrote: Sorry mate you're off track with this. The lockers default position is locked. Only the application of torque from an overspeeding wheel unlocks it. Steve. Not at all Mate. Do some research. Cheers |
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| Author: | Gwagensteve [ Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Weld front diff ?? |
If you're correct then the negative behaviour of the locker on slick surfaces wouldn't exist. |
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| Author: | DC3PTIKON [ Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Weld front diff ?? |
Sorry, at work at the moment. But until I can reply properly I just found a good video on auto locker operation for you Steve. Watch from around 2:50. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kL0hPEOStGk Cheers |
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| Author: | Gwagensteve [ Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Weld front diff ?? |
Yes, that's exactly how it works. The springs keep the locker engaged until the overspeeding wheel drives the coupler. |
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| Author: | DC3PTIKON [ Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Weld front diff ?? |
Gwagensteve wrote: Yes, that's exactly how it works. The springs keep the locker engaged until the overspeeding wheel drives the coupler. The springs are to stop the teeth from just floating around during normal/open differential action etc, not to provide locking. Did you watch and listen to the video? You can overcome those little springs and chamfered teeth easily by hand as I described earlier. Actual locking is only provided once the crosspin is loaded. |
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| Author: | fordem [ Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Weld front diff ?? |
DC3PTIKON wrote: the crosspin IS loaded even with the engine off. ' Where does the torque to load the crosspin come from with the engine off? Quote: 2. Put the transmission and transfer case in gear to lock the drive shaft.' What you are doing here is causing the pinion to 'Yes' load the crosspin as the transmission locking the pinion so is wont turn, No - what I'm doing is preventing the crosspin from turning - what this does is allow the driver to turn the coupler and that loads the cross pin - the torque for this comes from the wheel which is being manually rotated - the point you're not grasping is that for the driver to turn the coupler, it has to be engaged - or in other words - locked. Because of the bias springs the default state is for the couplers to engage the drivers. |
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| Author: | DC3PTIKON [ Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Weld front diff ?? |
Hey Fordem, The torque is provided by you manually turning the wheel, this inturn energises the crosspin. Like I said, putting it in gear and turning the wheel by hand simulates over run or engine braking which will also load the crosspin. The crosspin resists turning as the vehicle is in gear, therefore causing the coupler to ramp up the crosspin and apply the force needed to hold the teeth engaged and not allow them to come apart/slip. If these auto lockers were always locked as you say, you wouldn't be able to turn the wheel easily by hand when out of gear which is the case, even with one wheel on the ground. It will happily ratchet. The coupler is not engaged when no load is applied, it is at rest. Those little springs are merely holding the coupler in place the stop any chatter and couplers floating. But as soon as you apply the manual rotation and the vehicle is in gear, it only take a couple of mm of rotation for the coupler to ramp up the crosspin and engage, hence why it may feel like it's always locked. |
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| Author: | andrew [ Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Weld front diff ?? |
So mini spool rear air lock front seems to be the go.. ill start with rear as its probably cheaper... Thanks heaps guys this forum has been worth its weight in gold.. now by cars going ill post a pic thanks heaps for every step along the way in helping me get my first 4by done. |
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| Author: | alien [ Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Weld front diff ?? |
If you can afford to airlock the rear that's the best option, as you can run a totally open diff on the road without worrying about every single roundabout in winter... oh and when you're in a concrete carpark with the rear locked it sounds like you're ripping the biggest burnout just turning into a bay =) hahaha |
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| Author: | SierraDan [ Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Weld front diff ?? |
Lockright front. Selectable rear.
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| Author: | missmyljdaze [ Sun Jan 17, 2016 6:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Weld front diff ?? |
Sorry for interupting [well - I'm not really sorry, just pretending to be polite]  What has happened regarding the new type of locking differential that one of our crew invented? Last I heard it was being tested by someone - any further info? stephen |
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| Author: | Scrawny [ Sun Jan 17, 2016 6:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Weld front diff ?? |
Let's just say it's life was a VERY short one! |
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| Author: | Kor3y101 [ Sun Jan 17, 2016 8:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Weld front diff ?? |
Greenzook was testing it, it failed miserably with less then hours use on it. |
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| Author: | Reubs [ Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Weld front diff ?? |
missmyljdaze wrote: Sorry for interupting [well - I'm not really sorry, just pretending to be polite] What has happened regarding the new type of locking differential that one of our crew invented? Can I hijack this thread some more? Kor3y101 wrote: Greenzook was testing it, it failed miserably with less then hours use on it. Scrawn wrote: Let's just say it's life was a VERY short one! Does anyone know what became of the other dozen or so prototypes? Were the fitted? Used? Are they broken too? Pics of said locker? Threads love pics! 
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| Author: | Red89 [ Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Weld front diff ?? |
Didn't Kenn field test it for 12 months prior to release ? |
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| Author: | alien [ Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Weld front diff ?? |
The fact we've heard nothing of it would tend to point to failure as an option though =) |
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| Author: | greenzook89 [ Mon Jan 18, 2016 11:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Weld front diff ?? |
Yeah I was testing one. Can't really say too much as it needs to go back to Joe and get an autopsy done. But i beleive mine has an issue with the locking mechanism. Kenn was running one and so was another fellow down Victoria. I know 2 have been sold before even being fitted and there are about 3 more i know that arent fitted. |
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| Author: | jdk81 [ Tue Jan 19, 2016 6:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Weld front diff ?? |
Have a look at the cap locker site http://www.caplocker.com/ |
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