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To flex or not to flex?
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Author:  mr.green [ Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:31 am ]
Post subject:  To flex or not to flex?
general question..... how much flex is a good thing?

i'm getting close to having the front suspension done in the zook for the second time :? and its useless. it consist of pajero rear radius arms, kings vit rear coils and a panhard.


the rear on the other hand moves well. it is A-framed with extended 80 series ( bit over a meter from memory) lowers. the rear end flexes until the bushes run out of room in the mounts which is also where the shocks run out so that's fine.

when the car was set up on zook diffs, ruff with 33x10 on -28 wheels and NT spring spacings it was fairly well balanced front to rear.
since then i have gone down the lux bundy path with 315 75 16s on 0 offset rims. the rear suspension has been swapped over but decided on the radius arm front :blink:


so question is, if i make the front flex like the back( copy rear setup into front) will i end up with a floppy pooka that walks all around the road and flops all over the tracks or is there any merit in leaving the front with heaps of roll stiffness for side angle stability and let the rear flex just to aid the traction?

ive thought flex is cool but some of the stuff appsie can drive because of the side angles he can pick is thought provoking
Author:  royce [ Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: To flex or not to flex?
flex is overated

how often you you see a buggy or winch truck or whatever absolutely going for it with a wheel dangling in the middle of nowhere? good drivers are always aiming for a pretty level footing
Author:  Ben_Sierra [ Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: To flex or not to flex?
The way I see it, big flex is for posing on ramps, not for off road...

Once that wheel has drooped a certain distance there's gonna be bugger all load on it, so it won't have much grip. Lockers are the way, even if one wheel does end up in the air due to limited flex, its gonna keep moving...
Author:  mr.green [ Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: To flex or not to flex?
this is where i'm up to. the rear has the left hand wheel tucked up into the gaurd and the right is a fair way from anywhere, i intend to fit a sway bar which will help a bit.

as you can see the front has only moved about 4 or 5 inches. just not sure if its too little. the ride should be fine as the vit rears are lighter than standard vit fronts its just the binding of the radius arms stopping the diff from rotating.

by the way, i have never driven this car so i have no idea how it would drive as is... i guess i should have a go and get it driving and go from there :?

Image
Author:  BUZOOKA [ Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: To flex or not to flex?
pretty much what royce said pic teh flatest line and u will most of the time be laughing ;) that what i find a major advantage or learing in ifs trucks and that is.. it benifits ur driving skill in any form of 4wd (obviously urs isnt ifs .. but was just putting it across as a simple sorta point )
Author:  tanshi [ Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: To flex or not to flex?
i agree that there is such a thing as too much flex.

but its not pointless.

its not all ways possible to keep the car level and wheels on the ground.

as long as flex is controlled and not exxeccive, then its all good
Author:  Fatzook [ Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: To flex or not to flex?
IMO balance is more important than overall travel. I'd be doing more to get the front flexing. You can always limit the rear flex later on if need be.
Author:  royce [ Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: To flex or not to flex?
how does it flex lifting a rear up?

how does it flex with no springs in?

I think your real problem is your rear is too sloppy in droop, a swaybar would be great here, or limit its travel, will force the front a bit
Author:  CairnsZook [ Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: To flex or not to flex?
Why don't you try lifting up the rear left wheel as well? That might give you a better idea of how the whole vehicle is balanced while flexing.

I don't have nay experience with springs, but my leafy flexes better than that on the front...
Author:  mr.green [ Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: To flex or not to flex?
royce wrote:
how does it flex lifting a rear up?

how does it flex with no springs in?

I think your real problem is your rear is too sloppy in droop, a swaybar would be great here, or limit its travel, will force the front a bit


lifting a rear does exactly the same thing. the rear does everything and the body sits almost level. i have tried it with no front springs and the results where the same, even with a rope around the rear to limit it a bit.
it does force the front a bit but it must be putting a lot of pressure on the bushes and radius arm brackets.

Fatzook wrote:
IMO balance is more important than overall travel. I'd be doing more to get the front flexing. You can always limit the rear flex later on if need be.


this is what i'm thinking. flex might be over rated to a degree but this is a bit much. maybe if i bought it all done i would live with it but being that it is still in the build stage ( and probably forevermore) i can change it now.
Author:  ajsr [ Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: To flex or not to flex?
that rhf spring doesnt look even close to full compression, is it stitting on a bumpstop on the drivers side???
maybe the spring rate is too high in the front
Author:  mr.green [ Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: To flex or not to flex?
CairnsZook wrote:
I don't have nay experience with springs, but my leafy flexes better than that on the front...

this was back in the day with the zook diffs but same rear suspension. you can see the front ruf springs are doing more than the coils are now :(

Image
ajsr wrote:
that rhf spring doesnt look even close to full compression, is it stitting on a bumpstop on the drivers side???
maybe the spring rate is too high in the front


no, there is nothing stopping that spring from compresing besides the binding. those springs compress 70mm with just the weight of the car on them on flat ground.
Author:  ajsr [ Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: To flex or not to flex?
maybe the radius arm to diff mount is the bind up
Author:  Taylor74 [ Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: To flex or not to flex?
Id finish the body off before going too far. The more weight you add to it in different places will change the way it flexes.
The rear looks pritty impressive and id say the front is a tad stiff.
Would like to know what it flexes like once a fuel tank and the rest goes in.
You may need to stiffen the rear once the weight is applied as it will compress more and lighten the front to counteract this changing everything
Author:  SuziBlu [ Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: To flex or not to flex?
I love articulation, it makes for much softer riding in harsh country, and as you can hit things a lot harder/faster, you can go further.

Have a look at this, it is a very well set up zook, biggest mobs of flex, im jealous.

When you get airborn, long travel makes for lovely soft landings, no need for kidney belts.
Author:  mr.green [ Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: To flex or not to flex?
ajsr wrote:
maybe the radius arm to diff mount is the bind up
:youdaman:

yeh i know that is where its binding. i guess i was just after a general consensus as to whether i need to change it or not. it would seem yes,

ahh well back to the drawing board......... or shes floor with chalk as it is :?
Author:  mr.green [ Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: To flex or not to flex?
SuziBlu wrote:
Have a look at this, it is a very well set up zook, biggest mobs of flex, im jealous.


funny i was just looking at that. seems like there is drama from having the top link off centre? could work all right for me and i could inboard my coils a bit too with the radius arms gone for a bit more leverage.
thanks auszookers. more shed time but hopefully i can come up with a better result. and after 3 1/2 years, whats another couple, hey? :blink:
Author:  BlueSuzy [ Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: To flex or not to flex?
Looks neat Jas! 1st pics i've seen!

If you have a look at pootrol and cruisers, They only flex in the front when reversed up stuff. All the weight is on the front to make it move.

Another thing could be the size of the bushes and what weight they are designed for.

I have 2 paj arms here if you need a radius arm 4 link :lol:

Your in the same boat as me, trying to work things out half way though with no weight...
Author:  mr.green [ Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: To flex or not to flex?
BlueSuzy wrote:
Looks neat Jas! 1st pics i've seen!


first pics on the net so don't show anyone :)

BlueSuzy wrote:
I have 2 paj arms here if you need a radius arm 4 link :lol:

haha, yeh thanks Tim, very helpful :lol:

those top coil mounts are tacked on rubbish. have had to move them up and down the chassis as ive tried different springs :x
Author:  BlueSuzy [ Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: To flex or not to flex?
Its all a big puzzle! You will get there.
Author:  Fatzook [ Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: To flex or not to flex?
SuziBlu wrote:
I love articulation, it makes for much softer riding in harsh country, and as you can hit things a lot harder/faster, you can go further.

Have a look at this, it is a very well set up zook, biggest mobs of flex, im jealous.

When you get airborn, long travel makes for lovely soft landings, no need for kidney belts.


Some of your comments are a little misguided.

For example, articulation does not = softer ride. Spring rate and shock valving does. Ofcoarse in alot of cases they do go hand in hand, as the common approach is to fit soft ass coils that are shit at speed and on road, just to jet uncontrolled droop.

Articulation does not mean you " can hit things a lot harder/faster " either. Once again it is spring rate and shock valving/damping that makes suspension compliant at speed.

And lastly, long travel does not necessarily = soft landings. Other MAJOR contributing factors to a vehicles suspension being able to handle jumps is valving and spring rates. For example a vehicle with long travel and super flexy coils will most likely have a low coil rate, making it far easier for the vehicles weight to fully compress the coils before arresting the falling vehicle, meaning a hard bump strike will occur. = not soft.

I don't for one minute pretend to know all about suspension setup. I am still learning myself. But one thing I do know is that every mod is a compromise. You want huge flex? You will most likely lose onroad manners via excessive body roll. You want compliant suspension for fast driving offroad? You may lose some flex.......

JMO
Peter
Author:  SuziBlu [ Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: To flex or not to flex?
Peter, ok, yes articulation is the wrong word here, wheel travel is what I like.

A vehicle that has say 15" of travel, with good springs and shock valving will land a lot softer than one with 7" of travel, good spring rates and shock valving. Simply because the travel allows for slower stops.

By taking things on faster, dirt roads, horrendous corrugations, lumps bumps, pot holes, a vehicle with long travel will tend to get up and float over this where one with less travel will bounce. Smash down hard.

I can go faster than most where I play, and so, get further, simply because i have longer, softer travel, and, because of speed, am able to get where others cannot. Other who try and keep up, get the shit shaken out of them and very quickly drop off speed, and then have to back off altogether.

Some rocks you need speed, a long travel set up can hit a rock at 3ks, walking speed, and a short travel is reduced to 1k or it will smash its front right off the ground and lose steering and traction, the long travel will "travel" over it. Also figure the harshness of the short travel and breakages.


My lil girl is fine at around 80-90k on road, after that she is a real hand full to keep her from wandering. I can do this off road where others way down on that.

I really want YJ suspension so that I can have even longer wheel travel.
Author:  BlueSuzy [ Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: To flex or not to flex?
Yeah the rates etc are definately going to have to be last minute. :wink:


Armsup
Author:  mr.green [ Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: To flex or not to flex?
SuziBlu wrote:
My lil girl is fine at around 80-90k on road, after that she is a real hand full to keep her from wandering. .


This is not an option for me.i want to be able to cruise the freeway and worry about where i can find an ice cream or talk to the kids, not 100% concentrating on where the car is pointing at the time...... arrrggghhh. as you said Pete its all a compromise
Author:  alien [ Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: To flex or not to flex?
my front has twice the flex of the rear... i'd like more flex in the rear but at the same time i have a locker in the back, so rear flex is irrelevant. My zuk is also VERY stable on and offroad so i'm loathed to change it in case its for the worst.

but - given i've seen a few jimnys driving with double the rear flex to front flex and struggle on obstacles i've driven fine i do question the balance of front to rear flex.
Author:  Fatzook [ Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: To flex or not to flex?
SuziBlu wrote:
Peter, ok, yes articulation is the wrong word here, wheel travel is what I like.

A vehicle that has say 15" of travel, with good springs and shock valving will land a lot softer than one with 7" of travel, good spring rates and shock valving. Simply because the travel allows for slower stops.

By taking things on faster, dirt roads, horrendous corrugations, lumps bumps, pot holes, a vehicle with long travel will tend to get up and float over this where one with less travel will bounce. Smash down hard.

I can go faster than most where I play, and so, get further, simply because i have longer, softer travel, and, because of speed, am able to get where others cannot. Other who try and keep up, get the shit shaken out of them and very quickly drop off speed, and then have to back off altogether.

Some rocks you need speed, a long travel set up can hit a rock at 3ks, walking speed, and a short travel is reduced to 1k or it will smash its front right off the ground and lose steering and traction, the long travel will "travel" over it. Also figure the harshness of the short travel and breakages.


My lil girl is fine at around 80-90k on road, after that she is a real hand full to keep her from wandering. I can do this off road where others way down on that.

I really want YJ suspension so that I can have even longer wheel travel.


Thats all good. I wasn't having a go at your comprehension, just eluding to the fact that there is more contributing to a vehicles handling under the above mentioned conditions than just how much travel the vehicle has.
Author:  bakerboy [ Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: To flex or not to flex?
flex looks good :D
Author:  mr.green [ Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: To flex or not to flex?
bakerboy wrote:
flex looks good :D


you think so?

Image
Author:  Fatzook [ Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: To flex or not to flex?
mr.green wrote:
bakerboy wrote:
flex looks good :D


you think so?

Image


Chick you picked up at the local? 8O
Author:  atari4x4 [ Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: To flex or not to flex?
I wouldn't even fark that with Buzzy's weiner.
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