[bristlenose2008]

some of you may have realised that I have bought a new engine (low KM import) and embarked on a journey to rebuild it.

IS KNIFE EDGING COUNTER PRODUCTIVE for a 4wd off road vehicle? I've heard that lightened flywheels are so , just wanting to double check before I consider knife edging also.

So far the bottom end is being bored out 40thou, and getting it decked a tiny bit. What ever the machinist says is safe.

Sooooo..... the questions is: Would knife edging be counter productive for an offroad vehicle?

Let me know guys, but only reply to the thread if you have the answers.

[royce]

I dont subscribe to teh whole you need weight to make it smooth down low and bigger flywheels produce more torque

In a suzuki you are either plodding along at light throttle not using any power so any roughness wont matter or you are into it trying to use all the power you can so it will help, also trying to get enough momentum up to tackle a ledge or whatever might be a help

though unless its an unlimited budget build there is likely better things to do to make power first

[ajsr]

knife edgeing a crank has downsides as well as benfits.
besides the reduced windage effect its all downsides in a 4wd IMO

they get very hard to impossible to balance the crank, and it is supposedily worse the less cyl the engine has.

its quite a popular mod with straight 6 guys trying to find a quick revving high horse motor and Ive driven a few of these now and although they rev amazingly quick in some cases the vibes are very noticable in mose cases.

I suspect that reducing the rotating mass in an engine like the 1.3 that has a small mass as it is would just destroy any urge to pull the motor ever had and you would likely find you'd have troble keeping revs, and momentum up between gear changes , but this is just a therory.

on the street this might be a great mod but I suspect not for a 4wd.

I'm interested to hear how you go though

[bristlenose2008]

royce wrote:

though unless its an unlimited budget build there is likely better things to do to make power first

Not a limitless budget but there is a bit to play with.
Bottom End
1) The block is being decked slightly more than just skimming it.
2) Going 40thou over bore with ACL pistons & rings
3) Knife Edging if it definitely isn't counter productive
Top End
1) 3 angle valve job
2) Cam regrind not sure which 1134C or 986A see link for more info (http://www.tighecams.com.au/cars.htm)
3) port & polish exhaust side
4) New Valve Guides & Valve stem seals

What can you suggest as a better way to make power over knife edging that isn't listed here so far.

The Cam I was looking at getting grinded to 260 specs but when I looked at Hawk Strictly Suzuki for ideas I realised that they include modified intake rockers with this sort of cam.

My Machinist (option1) and Tighe Cams (option2) don't offer modified intake cams. Tighe Cams simply state that ROCKER RATIO 1.4:1/1.5:1
To me this means nothing. Is my machinist supposed to be able to take care of the rocker ratio or rocker modifications? He is doing the valve clearances, I know that, but is that part of the same process?

[want33s]

Rocker ratio...
Think of a kids see-saw in a park... Both seats are the same distance from the pivot point(fulcrum) which means a ratio of 1:1 Although travel is in opposite directions they both move by the same distance.

A rocker with a 1.4:1 will lift 10mm at the cam for 14mm of push on the valve.

Hawk provide new rockers with their cam because you should never use 2nd hand rockers on a new camshaft. Some rockers are machineable to bring them back to a serviceable condition but replacement rockers are often more economical.

[royce]

talk to tighe, ask them if they are able to machine your rockers, if not buy new ones its that simple

Why are you decking the block and not machining the head? dont you want more compression? decking the block will do not a lot

I reckon dump the knife edging and spend the money on a proper head job, does your engine guy know something we dont about the heads to only do the exhaust?

[Teracis]

What kind of engine are we talking about here, I know I could probably do a search and try and find it but the info wouldn't hurt to be in this thread too right?

[bristlenose2008]

Teracis wrote:

What kind of engine are we talking about here, I know I could probably do a search and try and find it but the info wouldn't hurt to be in this thread too right?

for the purpose of identification we will just refer to this engine as G16B. It is in fact a Jap import G16A (16 Valve EFI)

royce wrote:

I reckon dump the knife edging and spend the money on a proper head job, does your engine guy know something we dont about the heads to only do the exhaust?

The reason that only the exhaust side is I decided to compromise and only do one or the other. Apparently doing it on the intake side is the less advantageous between the two.

I have been discouraged from building a very strong head without doing making the bottom strong. Any suggestions or disagreements on this matter?

[mnemonix]

bristlenose2008 wrote:

I have been discouraged from building a very strong head without doing making the bottom strong. Any suggestions or disagreements on this matter?

That is backwards in my opinion.
To achieve power out of a N/A engine, you want to focus on breathing mods on the head first and foremost.
Money spent on improving intake and exhaust flow/velocity will show directly as power at wheels.

Turn to your bottom end only once a solid package has been achieved and you need to focus on strength/compression.

[royce]

you do whatever you need to do to make the flow what you want, if your intake to exhaust flow ratio is wrong youll lose power, I dont know if anyone has every put any effort into flow testing or porting a 16 valve head to know where the problems are, likewise if your engine guy is jumping in blind without flow testing how will you know what improvements are made?

top end makes power, bottom end holds it together so your knife edging could make the crank weaker, I doubt youll run into any problems on an engine that handles a few psi of boost fine though

what will you use for engine management?

[bristlenose2008]

royce wrote:

what will you use for engine management?

Standard ECU, hence the reason I don't want the wrong Camshaft, that requires upgraded ECU.

In the event an ECU upgrade is required, there is a piggy back that I can use. A friend offered it to me, not sure of the brand but was used on a Swift GTI with larger injectors & Cam. ( I want to avoid the cost of having this installed and dyne tuned, as that costs from $150/hr and up. Especially if I need to buy new rockers, which I haven't even priced)

[royce]

If you arent interested in retuning it all to suit then dont waste your money, stick your cam in a stock port head thats been skimmed for some compression and a 3 angle valve job and put it back together

[shandy92]

bristlenose2008 wrote:

Not a limitless budget but there is a bit to play with.
Bottom End
1) The block is being decked slightly more than just skimming it.
2) Going 40thou over bore with ACL pistons & rings
3) Knife Edging if it definitely isn't counter productive
Top End
1) 3 angle valve job
2) Cam regrind not sure which 1134C or 986A see link for more info (http://www.tighecams.com.au/cars.htm)
3) port & polish exhaust side
4) New Valve Guides & Valve stem seals

why port and polish, i wouldnt be polishing just porting. when you polish the manifold you are reducing turbulence which in some cases is bad. you need to have turbulence to get an even burn over the piston. for example: some people use a small vortex thing(forgot name) which creates a swirly motion.....turbulence. but at the end of the day its ur choice and ur engine.
oh and i would be doing the intake side!
Mitch

[bristlenose2008]

hopefully something others can learn from also:

CRANK
I have dropped the dismantled motor off the machinist to get the work I wanted done.
It was at this point where I was told I did not bring in a few things which were required for the Crank Knife Edging & Balancing process.

I needed to bring the Crank pulley (harmonic balancer) with the centre bolt and the 5 little screws that surrounds the centre bolt. I needed the Flywheel & the associated bolts, which I had to purchase as my gearbox and things were in a different geographical location.

Unfortunately when I went to buy the Flywheel the bolts were not on it, and the wrecker did not have the right one. I only found out they sold me the incorrect bolts (wrong tensile grade) after my machinist looked at them. So I had to order it from Suzuki, which they only had at the main Suzuki Australia warehouse. This is 2days wait so won't have it till Monday morning. (2nd unexpected delay)
Then there was spigot bearing & a clutch kit that I had to also provide for this same Crank knife edging & balancing process. BUDGET INCREASE of $1382 was required to cater for all this.

LESSON
Soooo....anyone out there thinking of balancing your crank DO NOT DO IT, unless you have money & time to burn, or you simply have to, due to problems, but then you would be $ better $ off with a replacement crank.

CAM
I also did not bring with me the Cam Socket and bolt, which is required for the new Cam profile process.

Other unexpected costs:
Bought the incorrect gasket kit, and lost the receipts, unable to get refund - $90
Bought new ACL FULL gasket kit - $181
Suzuki Flywheel Screws - $18
Flywheel $55
New HD Clutch Kit - $262
Spigot bearing - $6
New Rocket Arms (to be sure) - $150
New Oil Pump (to be sure) - $105
New crank bearings i think (just in case) - $80
Porting on the intake side (can't recall costs under $250) - $
Valve Clearance Adjustment Fee (can't recall costs under $100) - $
Express delivery fees - $30

(I have since crossed the EXO Cage & Tyres off my list of things for 2011)

[JrZook]

Have to ask mate, how much research did you do before you went ahead with the whole balancing process?

When getting stuff balanced there's no point in just bringing the crank in as the whole rotational mass needs to be balanced up as a set, clutch to harmonic balancer/front pulley. Also if going this far why didnt you bring in the pistons and rods and get them weighed and matched as they also play a part in the dynamic balancing of the engine.

So is this whole exercise just to get the crank machined and rotational mass of the bottom end balanced or you doing a full rebuild on it as well?

[bristlenose2008]

JrZook wrote:

Have to ask mate, how much research did you do before you went ahead with the whole balancing process?

When getting stuff balanced there's no point in just bringing the crank in as the whole rotational mass needs to be balanced up as a set, clutch to harmonic balancer/front pulley. Also if going this far why didnt you bring in the pistons and rods and get them weighed and matched as they also play a part in the dynamic balancing of the engine.

So is this whole exercise just to get the crank machined and rotational mass of the bottom end balanced or you doing a full rebuild on it as well?

Hi JrZook,

I am doing a full rebuild, no expense spared.
I did take the pistons and con rods and all. They needed that for the overbore and bottom end assembly, and also as you have mentioned for the balancing process.

My attempt at getting to understand the process end-to-end was insufficient as I now realised, but I've read countless documents, seen pictures and videos, but non of them showed the clutch or the flywheels. There were plenty of videos and pictures demonstrating the drilling of the crank and filling with other materials. These were fully computerised machines, and perhaps the manual process involves other methods. I really don't know.

[skyman]

Please take the time to port both intake and exhaust.

Imagine at it as breathing through two snorkels, one snorkel is for breathing in,and the other for breathing out. Say you have a 1 inch snorkel for breathing in, but the snorkel tube you need to breath out through is only 1/2 an inch.

Now you are breathing in more air than you can breath out, and will end up with your lungs all full of bad air, and no way to get it out.

An engine is an air pump, that is why you have suction (vacuum) on one side, and pressure (exhaust) on the other. If they are imbalanced then the engine will choke.

The more air and fuel the engine can suck in, the more it needs to breath out, period.

Imagine if only the exhaust was ported, what good would that do if the intake runners are too small to allow enough air in to blow out the big ports on the other side? it;s wasted time, effort and money.

So have both ported, and while you are at it, have the intake manifold port matched to the head, so you don't have any flow disturbances or restrictions there as well.

There's lots of write up on port matching out there, it's a pretty easy DIY job i you have a dremel or die grinder.

[fordem]

JrZook wrote:

Have to ask mate, how much research did you do before you went ahead with the whole balancing process?

When getting stuff balanced there's no point in just bringing the crank in as the whole rotational mass needs to be balanced up as a set, clutch to harmonic balancer/front pulley. Also if going this far why didnt you bring in the pistons and rods and get them weighed and matched as they also play a part in the dynamic balancing of the engine.

So is this whole exercise just to get the crank machined and rotational mass of the bottom end balanced or you doing a full rebuild on it as well?

Think about this - how many folks change the parts you have mentioned individually, and do so without upsetting the balance of the entire rotating mass.

Do you seriously expect someone to teardown an engine & rebalance it because they need to replace the front pulley? How many folks here have swapped a clutch without rebalancing the remainder of the rotating mass

No my friend - each piece is balanced separately.

You are correct however on weight matching the rods & pistons and I suspect that by itself would have achieved a greater smoothness than the entire remainder of the exercise - assuming that that is the purpose of the exercise.

[want33s]

fordem wrote:

Think about this - how many folks change the parts you have mentioned individually, and do so without upsetting the balance of the entire rotating mass.

Do you seriously expect someone to teardown an engine & rebalance it because they need to replace the front pulley? How many folks here have swapped a clutch without rebalancing the remainder of the rotating mass

No my friend - each piece is balanced separately.

You are correct however on weight matching the rods & pistons and I suspect that by itself would have achieved a greater smoothness than the entire remainder of the exercise - assuming that that is the purpose of the exercise.

Therein lies the problem... Each piece may be balanced individually but only balanced to a factory (mass production) tolerance of plus/minus whatever amount.
A properly balanced engine is the WHOLE rotating mass balanced as one piece and done so to much finer tolerances than any manufacturers...

Yes, changing a clutch will affect this balance and while the engine won't suddenly self destruct it does have a detrimental effect.

[stocker]

ok. so this thread has only just caught my eye. i've noticed alot of talk about balancing the motor, Porting and Polishing and Knife Edging.

Im just curious but What do you seek to gain out of this motor. That should be the first and foremost question. Do you want more of a linear torque curve or are you aiming for straight up power figures???

Also i've noticed a few comments about Turboing it. is this going to be a N/A Motor or Forced induction???

[JrZook]

Inbox full?

Pm sent bristlenose

[bristlenose2008]

update...

BLOCK & externals
Saturday I have been advised that the acid dipping was completed but the rocker cover was not done, as the acid dipping was believed to have been too much for that. It will be cleaned by a different process, which I did not ask about.

CAMS & Internals
My machinist also sent the cam away to CAM TECH for a regrind to specs of about 258-262 degree which is really Stage 1. Their Web Site is http://www.camtechcams.com.au/
(beyond 262 the distributor setup would become more complex, so I am led to believe)
I have specified the power band to be in the 1000-4000RPM. It has to idle smoothly, but with better throttle response. Initially I wanted it to go to Tighe Cams but my machinist does not deal with them as they are not in NSW. http://www.tighecams.com.au/cars.htm

Apparently when the CAM comes back it will have paperwork with it detailing the specs.
The engine too will have this sort of details, on specs like comp ration, deck height....will also be provided on the engine build, so in case I need to do anything with it in the future, people providing expertise to me will know it's history.

INJECTORS
I decided to reuse the standard injectors. Don't think that there is a need to upgrade as the standard should cope fine. Dropped it off at my mates workplace (mechanic shop) and they will ultrasonic bath it, change a few things, and test for the spray pattern. I will have them back in 7 days (as it's a love job)


ENGINE PAINT
I have been all over the place for a simple 1 Step spray to paint the engine. I wanted either Red or White. I could only find Black or Orange. Not even blue was in stock anywhere I've been to.
The brand I wanted was Septone. Unfortunately 3M uses a 2 or 3 step process, which I am not too keen on.
1) RED - http://www.septone.com.au/detail.asp?it ... page_num=1
2) BLUE - http://www.septone.com.au/detail.asp?it ... page_num=1

The idea was that all parts associated with water would be blue. Such as water pump.
The sump would be using oil so that would be black.
Membranes would be white, as there I associate that with vacuum air.
Fuel perhaps orange, for flammable.

[want33s]

bristlenose2008 wrote:

The idea was that all parts associated with water would be blue. Such as water pump.
The sump would be using oil so that would be blue.
Membranes would be white, as there I associate that with air.
Fuel perhaps orange, for flammable.

It'll end up looking like a bowl of fruit loops....
The best thing about alloy parts is NO PAINT needed.

[JrZook]

want33s wrote:

bristlenose2008 wrote:

The idea was that all parts associated with water would be blue. Such as water pump.
The sump would be using oil so that would be blue.
Membranes would be white, as there I associate that with air.
Fuel perhaps orange, for flammable.

It'll end up looking like a bowl of fruit loops....
The best thing about alloy parts is NO PAINT needed.

Ill go against ya here Jas (unless your just comparing alloy to steel)! Alloy is really a bitch to keep clean and looking sweet i reckon, especially on a block that sees mud and dirt most of the time. I tend to paint most of my alloy stuff an alloy coloured heat/chem resistant paint.

Engine build sounds good bristlenoise! Be interesting to see how the end result performs! Not too keen on the colouring in scheme (I like to keep a neat factory look blacks,greys, alloy) but each to their own
Keep the updates coming! Very interested to see how the cam goes!

[mnemonix]

Going to be dissapointing after you spend all this money to get an engine that performs like a stocker g16 with a cam.

[JrZook]

mnemonix wrote:

Going to be dissapointing after you spend all this money to get an engine that performs like a stocker g16 with a cam.

Does a descent cam liven these things up at all or what?

[want33s]

JrZook wrote:

Ill go against ya here Jas (unless your just comparing alloy to steel)!

Well, yes I was.

JrZook wrote:

Alloy is really a bitch to keep clean and looking sweet i reckon, especially on a block that sees mud and dirt most of the time. I tend to paint most of my alloy stuff an alloy coloured heat/chem resistant paint.

It is a 4wd Dan.... Ever heard of a pressure washer???
You are the only person I know that has a spotlessly clean 4wd...

[JrZook]

want33s wrote:

It is a 4wd Dan.... Ever heard of a pressure washer???
You are the only person I know that has a spotlessly clean 4wd...

Haha cheers man! But she ain't only a mall cruiser, does get used and dirty! If you think mine is spotless you should see my dad's vehicles . Just can't stand dirty and working under crap!

[bristlenose2008]

.......update[b].........
It seems the GFC took no effect on CAM profilers & CRANK machinist. The cam & crank have not come back to my machinist, which is delaying the last bit of work to have the valve clearance adjustments done, before I can take it home to begin assembly. Got the paint, going with a purple, but I have the silver as backup.

The other delay is the fuel injectors have not come back yet, but I will have them by Wednesday.

Bit of a bummer, really wanted to assemble the motor this weekend, but assembly won't be till 28 May (next weekend).

[bristlenose2008]

.......update[b].........

apparently the crank finally got done last Friday the 27th May, but I haven't been able to check on it. Hoping to be able to pick up all parts Wednesday, then I would like to post some photos.

Here is a really funny VIDEO that people should check out

http://www.whoisthemonkey.com/videos/19 ... 4-recovery