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65-80km crazy death wobble on the jimny
http://auszookers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=47059		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  dawoode [ Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:38 pm ]
Post subject:  65-80km crazy death wobble on the jimny
Hi Zookers...

My 2010 jimny just had a 2 inch lift and 2degree front castor corrected bushes in the radius arms (ironman brand).. All is well with the stock rims and rubber..

Just added 15x7 king wheels with 215/75 Federal AT's and around 65-80km comes the wobble. When it comes on while Im slowing down it continues till I stop.. and it is a real bad wobble... Feels like the rims are about to come off... The whole front end shakes left to right... Happens on accelerating through that range aswell but dissappears once you hit 80km...

I have tried swapping out the front wheels for the rear with no luck... It's too dangerous to drive like this so was wondering if their is a sure way to fix this and if fixed, can I put the stockies back on and drive with no problem....?
Author:  jason_sgt [ Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 65-80km crazy death wobble on the jimny
Describe the wobble, is it like a shudder in the steering wheel, or do you feel it in the seat? Check the wheels to make sure they haven't lost wheel weights off them. Those thicker AT's can have anywhere up to 100 grams of weight on each side of the wheel.

(path of least resistance, simple fix first)

Otherwise your bushes are all new and or in good condition?
Author:  dawoode [ Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 65-80km crazy death wobble on the jimny
The front end of the car actually feels like it's moving left to right, kind of like the wheels are being held on by one nut... So do you think I should start with a wheel balance?
Author:  dawoode [ Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 65-80km crazy death wobble on the jimny
While the front moves left to right, the steering wheel is doing the same thing...
Author:  watermouse [ Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 65-80km crazy death wobble on the jimny
There are a million threads on this. :roll:

Start with the kingpin preload. Remove a square shim from under the top and bottom kingpin flange/plates if it has them. Otherwise you need to install round shims on the end of the kingpin where it bears on the bearing.
This causes some extra drag, called preload, on the kingpin bearings in the knuckle which can dampen the wobbles. It is a part that wears so the problem will probably come back with time.

Failing that, check all steering linkages and bushes, Check that the castor correction bushes are in the right way i.e rolls the bottom of the diff forward.
Last resort, install a steering dampener.

I believe it is a design flaw in the Jimny with the mass balancing of the steering system. Bigger tyres and different castor cause the problem to appear if it wasn't there before. Although it can happen to stock jimnys too.

I haven't seen it done but I suspect that adding a corrector weight of certain mass to the steering link OR tie rod may also alleviate the issue. (cue considered debate) I wouldn't recommend you try this though.
Author:  jason_sgt [ Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 65-80km crazy death wobble on the jimny
As per watermouse there is a history of this with the Jimnys means there is lots of fixes, from the description it defiantly isn't a simple balance (which would be more of a shudder.)

From memory i'd be looking for a thread called death wobble.

Best of luck :)
Author:  Jezza86 [ Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 65-80km crazy death wobble on the jimny
left to right diff movement with crazy steeling feedback is panhard. check your bushes, and tighten the bolts up.
another quick way to test this is to drive at the same speed, but with continuous steering input.

so swerve. swerve left and right reasonably quickly while accelerating up to 80.
if your panhards done the tie rod will take the slop out and prevent the harmonisation that causes the wobble.

edit: swerving can be avoided if you have a local road with a lot of camber where you can do your 80kph.
Author:  Jezza86 [ Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 65-80km crazy death wobble on the jimny
then if its not the pan hard ignore what watermouse said about removing square shims, jimnys dont have them.
Image
jimnys have round shims that fit over the pin on the king pin. they sit between the kingpin and the king pin bearings. we need to add shims to increase preeload.

the preload should be less then the maximum 4.5kg. you dont have to pull the whole hub apart like the bigjimny guide sugests. but its a good idea if your king pins have never ever been serviced.
add enough shims to the top king pins to rais the load (as measured in pic below) to 4-4.5kg with the scraper seals on and you should have a lot less trouble.
Image

i know the pic says 4.6kg max, but IMO this leads to crushed bearings on corrugated roads
Author:  Mike57 [ Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 65-80km crazy death wobble on the jimny
Read all the pages in this thread and you will know everything we know about this problem. Its all here.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15499&hilit=death+wobble

Mike
Author:  watermouse [ Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 65-80km crazy death wobble on the jimny
Quote:
then if its not the pan hard ignore what watermouse said about removing square shims, jimnys dont have them.


My 98 Jimny had these shims from the factory.
Image

from my thread years ago when I was asking the questions and getting good advice.

http://www.auszookers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19943

They were 0.4mm thick

IF your car has these then removing them has the same effect as placing a 0.4mm round shim at the end of the king pin. I don't know how thick the aftermarket shims are. I never bought any. I removed one of these shims from each upper and lower kingpin and it stopped the wobbles but I did this as part of a full front end maintenance, bearings, seals, wipers etc.

If your car doesn't have them you can ignore that part of my advice. :wink:
Author:  Mike57 [ Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 65-80km crazy death wobble on the jimny
Dawoode and watermouse

The 2009 model does not have these square shims. There must have been a design change since 1998. You need to add the circular shims to add tension to the bearing on later models. The aftermarket shims come in a variety of sizes 0.2, 0.5 and 1.0 mm http://www.jimnybits.co.uk/shop/jimny/s ... _1090.html so you can test which thickness gives you the right starting tension.

Mike
Author:  zukenutter [ Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 65-80km crazy death wobble on the jimny
Watermouse, did you buy your jimny new or used?
Author:  Jezza86 [ Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 65-80km crazy death wobble on the jimny
i have 0.4mm on the top, and it was shimmed to 4kg, but since its done a lot of work. I'm looking at putting these in next time to see how they go.

Image
Author:  watermouse [ Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 65-80km crazy death wobble on the jimny
It was used, I bought it in 2007.

It is entirely possible that Suzuki improved their kingpin tolerances and did away with them altogether on later models as this seems to be the case with a lot of people. It also could be possible that they add these OR the round end type ones when assembling the car to get the preload correct (as per the SM that Jezza posted up). There isn't any other way to load and unload the kingpin bearings to get the correct preload unless Suzuki had complete faith in their own repeatable machining tolerances. Early models might have been subject to slacker tolerances until production issues were ironed out.
Author:  zukenutter [ Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 65-80km crazy death wobble on the jimny
Or the previous owner read somewhere about adding shims but didn't do enough research, went to a dealer, asked for shims, and they sold him a set of Sierra KP shims thinking that was what he wanted. I've never heard of the Sierra style shims being used on a Jimny and it's not mentioned in my workshop manual.
Author:  watermouse [ Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 65-80km crazy death wobble on the jimny
So the hairdresser I bought it off, in all her mechanical experience ignored the slipping clutch, leaking main seal and tx seals, took some bad advice by installing square kingpin shims. :?
Not only that but 1.6mm of shims each side 8O .

That would have made the hypothetical problem so much worse that I would have noticed it when I bought it.

The wobbles appeared on my car with the usual lift and bigger tyres and some spirited offroading 2 years later.

I refer back to my original reply to the OP.
Quote:
Remove a square shim from under the top and bottom kingpin flange/plates if it has them


I am not trying score points on anyone here. I am only sharing some advice based on my experience. Take it or leave it, but to make a blanket statement that
Quote:
jimnys dont have them

is, in my experience, incorrect.

YMMV
Author:  zukenutter [ Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 65-80km crazy death wobble on the jimny
No argument.

zukenutter wrote:
I've never heard of the Sierra style shims being used on a Jimny and it's not mentioned in my workshop manual but possibly may be there.


^^ fixed

Of course being that you're the first to ever come across this I'm sure you'd agree that it had to be pointed out that it's not usual.
Author:  watermouse [ Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 65-80km crazy death wobble on the jimny
Agreed. It seems it is unusual and I certainly wasn't expecting them.

I didn't know I was the first though. :woohoo: (perhaps the first on this forum or the first to mention it, who knows)

It would be good to hear from other early Jimny owners who have done this, to see what they found.
Author:  dawoode [ Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 65-80km crazy death wobble on the jimny
So after doing the shims, bushes/panhard and hopefully getting rid of the problem will it have any effect if I run the original tyres and rims on the jimny... I'd like to change them over when im not in the scrub?
Author:  Jezza86 [ Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 65-80km crazy death wobble on the jimny
origional wheels will be fine
it might just look funny if you trim the guards to stop scrubbage down the track.
Author:  Mike57 [ Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 65-80km crazy death wobble on the jimny
If you went back to original tyres and rims now the problem will probably disappear. It is caused IMO by the extra weight on the end of the axles. So no, there will be no issue going back to original tyres and rims. I have kept my originals for fault finding and especially looking for any noises now that the MTs are wearing and becoming a little noisier.

Also in support of what Mr ZN says it is pretty odd to see the square shims on a Jimny. If removing them pay attention to the start up loading otherwise you can wear out the bearing pretty quickly. I think Mr ZN also pioneered that move.
Author:  zukenutter [ Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 65-80km crazy death wobble on the jimny
I was far from the pioneer but certainly an early DIY'er in Au. Stekky put me onto it and BigJimny backed it up.
Author:  dawoode [ Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 65-80km crazy death wobble on the jimny
Would 215/75/15's fit onto original rims and possibly not have the same problem.. Im thinking it might be the better option in keeping the extra weight off the corners?
Author:  Jezza86 [ Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 65-80km crazy death wobble on the jimny
215's fit stock rims and look legal. also keeps the fuel economy on this planet.
Author:  dawoode [ Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 65-80km crazy death wobble on the jimny
Thanks jezza... will take that option and see how the wobble goes
Author:  Jezza86 [ Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 65-80km crazy death wobble on the jimny
bfg km2's come in a 215, are reasonably quitet for a muddy. insert zukenutter here
Author:  dawoode [ Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 65-80km crazy death wobble on the jimny
Do you think the wobble will be a prob with km2's on stock rims.. so far i have a 2inch lift with 2degree castor correction radius arm bushes...?
Author:  zukenutter [ Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 65-80km crazy death wobble on the jimny
The more aggressive the tyre, the greater the chance of wobbles. If they're wearing evenly and are rotated regularly it could be a non issue.
No guarantees can be given when it comes to the wobbles. My wobble is creeping back after a long run of non-wobble life, time for some new panhard bushes, hopefully that's all it is.
Author:  dawoode [ Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 65-80km crazy death wobble on the jimny
Just ordered some superpro panhard bushes for the front end. Will add these then re-post if i get a result. Will change my at's onto the stockies aswell..
Author:  Mike57 [ Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 65-80km crazy death wobble on the jimny
I have 215/75 MTs and I only had a wobble issue when I added the weight of manual hubs. I also have heavier rims. Fixing the shims is not a really big job and worth the effort.

Mr ZN; I meant you pioneered the wearing out of bearings by adding too much tension - was that you?
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