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Auto vs Manual
http://auszookers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=47609		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Che [ Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Auto vs Manual
Anyone want to lend their thoughts out there?

Own a Sierra, very much got my eye on upgrading to a Jimny. The used car scene has an equal supply of autos and manuals. The only car i've ever owned that was an auto was my first (HQ Holden w/ trimatic), every car since has been manual, so my inclination would be to stick with the stick. And historically (well, according to my hazy recollection) autos have been shite when paired with small engines.

But auto's have come a long way over the last 20 years, and all my pre-conceived notions might well need an overhaul. I'm well aware of the auto advantage when off-roading bigger vehicles, but not sure how that translates when you're dealing with small, light, nimble cars.

Should I give an auto Jimny a look in or manual all the way?
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Auto vs Manual
As a road car, my preference would be manual. As an off road car, my preference would be auto.

Manuals need a line lock and about twice the numerical gear reduction of a comparable auto to approach the drivability of an auto off road.

Steve.
Author:  monley [ Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Auto vs Manual
Me personally I'd go manual. A jimny already lacks get up go as a manual on road let alone as a auto. Small engined autos always bug me to drive (m15a swift auto is useless in traffic due to how gut less it is) Might be a different story with a m18a in front of it tho
Author:  pezz [ Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Auto vs Manual
Id get a auto...
I dong beat on my cars on or off road, so gutlessness isnt a issue for me
Author:  striker99 [ Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Auto vs Manual
After buying an auto and having it for a year... I'd go with a manual next time... much stronger for towing
Author:  Dan85 [ Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Auto vs Manual
Ive got an auto jimny and tow with it and im happy with it. offroad its fantastic. you just get to spend a bit more time observing the scenery with the auto.
Author:  Che [ Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Auto vs Manual
Has anyone done a 1.5 conversion with an auto?
Author:  zukenutter [ Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Auto vs Manual
Don't know about 1.5 but docka did a 1.8 swap in an auto.

I'll go manual when I no longer have enough strength in my left leg to push the clutch ;)

Something that hasn't been mentioned in making this choice is engine braking. I guess it depends on individual off-road driving techniques though. In a manual, the clutch should be used very differently when off-road compared to on road. Stall recovery seems to be a technique that is pretty much forgotten these days so I see why many noob off-roaders would find an auto easier. I guess this has come about from people mostly choosing to not join a club or do any driver training.

Of course those experienced off roaders who prefer auto would have different reasons for auto preference.
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Auto vs Manual
I don't believe an auto is any easier to drive offroad- a number of special techniques need to be learned, auto or manual, it's just an auto adds another level of control off road once you learn the tricks.
Author:  striker99 [ Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Auto vs Manual
I personally find the auto to be annoying on the beach... not that i have driven a manual...

It is restricted to first, second and third gear in low range which is a max speed of ~ 30km/h... By having the manual you could atleast use fourth if need be... I find myself constantly stopping to change in and out of high-low on inland beach tracks... having to stop and cahnge back into low for any soft sections of track as a result
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Auto vs Manual
Vitara 4speed autos are the same. On a vitara the fix is to unplug the low range light switch from the transfer, but my guess is its a bit more complicated on a 2013 jimny.

Steve
Author:  Dan85 [ Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Auto vs Manual
Striker- for soft sand couldn't you leave it in 4H but lock it into 1st or 2nd with the shifter to keep the revs up then kick it into 3rd when your back on something harder? I don't do a lot of soft sand driving so don't really know but generally on a beach I leave it in 4H but around where I've been the sand has been petty firm.
Author:  atari4x4 [ Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Auto vs Manual
i can go 5 days in the dunes & not use hi range in my auto. :?

auto v manual









































AUTO FTMFW Armsup
Author:  pete_79 [ Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Auto vs Manual
Yet to see a manual cooked on the beach, but have seen 3 autos fried on the soft sand...
They where 3 totally different cars so not model or type specific, but old mate in his brand new diesel hilux was not happy being stuck on the beach with a toasted auto.

For this and some other reasons I've always had manuals, but I guess a Trans cooler, temp gauge and a bit of sympathy will all help though.
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Mon Sep 01, 2014 6:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Auto vs Manual
seen any clutches fail? I've seen more clutches wrecked than autos cooked.
Author:  zukenutter [ Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Auto vs Manual
Gwagensteve wrote:
seen any clutches fail? I've seen more clutches wrecked than autos cooked.


Definitely! But that's usually user error, my wife can vouch for that :rofl:
Author:  Jezza86 [ Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Auto vs Manual
sounds like mr new hilux didnt let the tyres down and relied on revs too heavily.

i love manuals, but for going super slow, rock crawling, dificult hill climbs and things like that i prefer auto.

even with 30% reduction i find i still stall occasionally on technical terrain where im trying to avoid wheel spin but need the revs/ torque to get up a obstacle.

the other side of the coin is i can do donughts in 2nd in a manual, and driving sensabilly i can get back down to 9.4l/100k. need to practice for testing the cap locker.
Author:  pete_79 [ Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Auto vs Manual
Yep, a decent drive on the beach will quickly finish off a clutch that's been abused.
And Mr new Hilux was not the brightest spark, so that could have been the case.


I just prefer a manual and only like autos in stop/start city traffic.
Author:  striker99 [ Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Auto vs Manual
Dan85 wrote:
Striker- for soft sand couldn't you leave it in 4H but lock it into 1st or 2nd with the shifter to keep the revs up then kick it into 3rd when your back on something harder? I don't do a lot of soft sand driving so don't really know but generally on a beach I leave it in 4H but around where I've been the sand has been petty firm.


For compacted sand this works fairly well, but even with letting tyres down, really soft spots will find the power just sucked from a Jimny even in low range at times.. with tyres between 12-15psi...








pete_79 wrote:
Yet to see a manual cooked on the beach, but have seen 3 autos fried on the soft sand...
They where 3 totally different cars so not model or type specific, but old mate in his brand new diesel hilux was not happy being stuck on the beach with a toasted auto.

For this and some other reasons I've always had manuals, but I guess a Trans cooler, temp gauge and a bit of sympathy will all help though.



If you drive in really soft sand you tend to need to use low.. not so much for on the beach but the back tracks..

Particularly the ones up at bribie island they can be shocking at times.. in which case if you use high range it will die often end up back in first or second low for some spots haha....

The auto also gets very hot when working it hard in first or second in soft sand... on that note... I ordered a transmission cooler last night :p
Author:  got_bar_work [ Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Auto vs Manual
12-15 psi is the problem
Sould be down around 5-10 in a zook
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Auto vs Manual
So it's a problem with the auto if the driver doesn't air down and smashes around in high range until they melt it, but its driver error if you abuse the clutch and it fails. I see the difference there. :?:

12-15 psi is almost road pressure for a Jimny with LT tyres on it, so that's far too much air for sand.

I'm not sure how much sand you've driven with a manual, but I reckon sand is about 345973495478X easier to drive with an auto. Being able to change gear without loosing all your momentum is pretty handy.

Steve.
Author:  monley [ Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Auto vs Manual
Gwagensteve wrote:
So it's a problem with the auto if the driver doesn't air down and smashes around in high range until they melt it, but its driver error if you abuse the clutch and it fails. I see the difference there. :?:

12-15 psi is almost road pressure for a Jimny with LT tyres on it, so that's far too much air for sand.

I'm not sure how much sand you've driven with a manual, but I reckon sand is about 345973495478X easier to drive with an auto. Being able to change gear without loosing all your momentum is pretty handy.

Steve.


I agree that auto works well in the sand when they have the power in front of them like a v6 vit but every time I use to wheel with a auto jimny in the dunes it just never had the power to use the auto to its advantage. Maybe a different story as a 1.8/auto combo though
Author:  zukenutter [ Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Auto vs Manual
Gwagensteve wrote:
So it's a problem with the auto if the driver doesn't air down and smashes around in high range until they melt it, but its driver error if you abuse the clutch and it fails. I see the difference there. :?:

I assume this isn't aimed at me because I hadn't even mentioned tyre pressure. But yeah definitely driver error if a clutch gets fried, without doubt

12-15 psi is almost road pressure for a Jimny with LT tyres on it, so that's far too much air for SOFT sand.

I agree with the second part with my small edit in bold. First part will see a noob who takes that as gospel and roll a tyre on a bend, not a good comment I think as it'll be misinterpreted.

I'm not sure how much sand you've driven with a manual, but I reckon sand is about 345973495478X easier to drive with an auto. Being able to change gear without loosing all your momentum is pretty handy.

Soft sand is time for low range and 10psi in a Jimny so this point really has no relevance. Bolded bit of your comment I'll assume you're aiming at others

Steve.
Author:  GeckoXL7 [ Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Auto vs Manual
I had both back in 99-2002 as work cars, i ended up with the auto as for me and driving it all day everyday ended up better.

Between the two not much difference, the Auto had plenty of up and go and drove around in the hills a fair bit, but liked sitting in high RPMS going up hills.

From my experiance the auto used a fair bit more fuel too.

Beach wise i liked the manual, but it was only easy beach driving nothing overly soft for to long. For Auto i just selected the gear instead of having it in drive, the auto wasnt overly quick in changing gears so if did have it in D it would bog down pretty quick, From memory the RPM drop between gear changes where quite high for the auto? just seemed to work a bit harder than the manual did.

Been a very long time since driving one, but between the two i went with the auto, if use offroad alot would be the manual. Cant recall what motors they had in them. Pretty sure they where the base models.
Author:  Sookie [ Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Auto vs Manual
I love the auto for wheeling round my local spots, rocky step climbs sandy and mud, it has got me up some things I don't think I'll drive if I had a manual!. And till late auto has been the best thing,
But as of late I have not been doing much wheeling and more camping and towing the bikes soft Basic wheeling id like a manual for doing what I have been doing lately
Author:  pete_79 [ Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Auto vs Manual
Gwagensteve wrote:
So it's a problem with the auto if the driver doesn't air down and smashes around in high range until they melt it, but its driver error if you abuse the clutch and it fails. I see the difference there. :?:

12-15 psi is almost road pressure for a Jimny with LT tyres on it, so that's far too much air for sand.

I'm not sure how much sand you've driven with a manual, but I reckon sand is about 345973495478X easier to drive with an auto. Being able to change gear without loosing all your momentum is pretty handy.

Steve.

Yes, it's driver error for both of those failures as you have put them. Run identical cars with correct tyre pressures , one with a standard good condition auto and the other a standard good condition manual in really soft sand for a long time and tell me which one will fail first. My money says the clutch will be fine.

Yes, 12-15 psi is too high even for standard Jimny highway tyres (never mind LT tyres). I found 8-10 is a good starting point for standard Jimny tyres.

Yes, you are right, the auto does make for smooth gear changes and helps keep momentum to stay on top of the soft stuff. I have driven bigger autos before, but not yet had a go with an auto Jimny on the sand. I think Monley's point about the low power Jimny not getting the most of the autos advantage is going to be prettywell right.



I don't pretend to have half the technical driving experience that you or a lot of the other guys on here have.
I've always owned manual 4wds and grew up on the beach where nearly every arvo after work I'd drive my old cruiser 7ks up the beach to the mouth of a creek to go and flick a lure for a few hours, so I would say I'm a fairly competent beach driver and I feel more then comfortable driving a manual on the sand.

BUT, big rocks and really technical stuff is another story, that's all new to me and I still have lots to learn there..... :oops:
Based on the little bit of technical driving that I have done over the last few years I can see that an auto would be an advantage in some situations, just the same as I've been glad I had a manual in other situations.
Author:  Jezza86 [ Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Auto vs Manual
IMO its not the auto that valuable, its the torque converter/ cooler setup.
its the 'gearing' it provides by allowing higher revs at lower speed and the shock absorption/ delay in transferring engine torque to the wheels. those stop you diging holes in the sand when you try and launch when its soft.
really good clutch technique can limit the ware and tare of slipping and still provide traction for such a launch, but bottom line a torque converter and cooler will last much longer.
a locking torque converter can be just as good as a clutch on the highway/ general wheeling.
is one available on the Suzukis but?
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Auto vs Manual
The Jimny auto and AW-4 use a lockup converter in 4th gear.

If you mean a manual lock that you can apply regardless of gear, I don't understand why people want this. In my opinion, it's strictly a modification for patrol owners who don't have enough low range gearing. I very rarely use 1st low in my car to descend ANYTHING - it's just too slow. (AW-4/6.4/5.12 35" tyres)

I general, I'd say the AW-4 and Jimny autos are fairly tight in the converter and don't need a lock other than on the highway. There was a lockup version of the trimatic used in TBI Vitaras (TH-180C) and with the loose converter in a trimatic I could see a point for a lock in some situations. Apparently though, the lock solenoid generally dies.

Pete, I'd say correctly driven and with the correct tyre pressures, there's nothing in it for reliability auto vs manual. It's not people who are driving correctly that melt autos or kill clutches.

Steve.
Author:  kenn [ Mon Sep 01, 2014 6:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Auto vs Manual
Autos rule !
Author:  OFF-CHOPS [ Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Auto vs Manual
manuals all the way up here not much sand!

plus we love to rip a few skids! in the zooks not in ya pants! :-P
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