It is currently Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:07 pm
Board index » Talking About Stuff » Suzuki Talk



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 138 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 05, 2014 12:20 pm
Posts: 919
Vehicle: Vitara 1994

Post Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:51 pm 
Reply with quote Top  
I own a new Jimny and have just put 20,000kms on it. Although its basically stock I do drive it very hard off-road (not so much on road).

So the book says every 40,000kms for the trans and filter to be changed. And that's what Suzuki will do.

But I am thinking of changing the Trans oil every 20,000 and the filter every 40,000 at the due time.I am quite hard on the trans and I am just thinking an extra oil change in between will help the trans survive as I often drive the car offroad, often in deep sand in hi and low range, in hot weather which is particularly hard on the trans.


What would you do? add an extra trans oil change in between? Or just let Suzuki take car of it at their regular intervals?

 Profile  

Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:00 am
Posts: 1992
Location: Georgetown, Guyana
Vehicle: 98 5 dr SQ420, 05 5dr JB420

Post Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 12:50 am 
Reply with quote Top  
What does the book say for "harsh environment" service?

Most service manuals have several different service schedules, and whilst I've never looked at the Jimny manual, I suspect it will do the same, and you may find that the recommended service interval is quite a bit shorter than that for normal usage.

It might also be a good idea to fit a transmission temperature gauge (if you don't already have one) and keep an eye on the temperatures, because that plays a major part in fluid & transmission life - it will also give you some indication as to whether a transmission cooler should be added.

 Profile  

Online
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:00 am
Posts: 14152
Location: Here there everywhere
Vehicle: A manly awesome man jimny

Post Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:17 am 
Reply with quote Top  
I would add a cooler. My family car has done 35000km with at least 10000km towing 1500kg trailer @ 130kph, it has two big coolers and the fluid still looks like new.

_________________
WANTED LJ20 or LJ50 in good original condition

 Profile  

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:00 pm
Posts: 10555
Location: Melbourne

Post Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:53 am 
Reply with quote Top  
Use the trans temperature gauge, and change fluid based on the amount of time the transmission has spent hot. There are very good tables of transmission fluid change frequency based on peak fluid temperature starting at "forever" and ending at "immediately" based on how hot the trans got. Completely disregard the factory frequency and change based only on peak temperature.

Deep sand in high range will heat the auto incredibly quickly. The hottest my AW-4 runs is in H2 on winding dirt roads - long periods of large throttle openings, lots of time with the gearbox in 2nd-4th but without the converter locking. My trans will brush 100˚C under those circumstances. This sort of use will see a Jimny auto at 120˚C+ - on the verge of requiring fluid replacement intervals near every 5000km.


Steve.

 Profile  

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2014 3:46 pm
Posts: 149
Vehicle: Vitara SV420

Post Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 11:35 am 
Reply with quote Top  
Every 5000km. Seems like huge overkill there!

 Profile  

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:00 pm
Posts: 10555
Location: Melbourne

Post Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 12:23 pm 
Reply with quote Top  
It could be every 1000km if the trans is getting hot enough. It's not a mystery.

Image

For reference:

175˚F=80˚C
195˚F=90˚C
220˚F=104˚C
240˚F=115˚C
260˚F=126˚C
295˚F=146˚C
315˚F=157˚C

I've seen a Jimny auto trans in a well geared sierra run over 125˚C on a hot day. Car runs a 250X250mm bar and plate cooler Properly installed in front of the radiator. At least the driver knew it was getting that hot and cooled it down. Apparently though, you don't want to "overcool" your auto because bad things can happen, according to the internet experts, yet my auto shifts fine when it's stone cold.

 Profile  

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2014 3:46 pm
Posts: 149
Vehicle: Vitara SV420

Post Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 1:03 pm 
Reply with quote Top  
Ah the old table made by Auto Fluid Companies and Service Centres, that you got off the.............internet. Still seems very excessive. I've worked on and overhauled all types of autos, from FWD to RWD to 4WD over the last 18 years, and seen some really abused ones at that. Some with original fluid in them at 100,000+ kms, black as and still shifting ok. AT fluids have come a long way since 1965, so changing auto fluid every 5000kms does seem to be a bit excessive.

I guess all those auto Jimnys I see on the road with jerry cans on the back must have ATF in them.


Last edited by DC3PTIKON on Tue Dec 29, 2015 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 Profile  

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 05, 2014 12:20 pm
Posts: 919
Vehicle: Vitara 1994

Post Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 2:10 pm 
Reply with quote Top  
DC3PTIKON wrote:
Every 5000km. Seems like huge overkill there!

Every 20,000 is what I am wanting to do, half of what Suzuki recommends. I have done 22,000 already and don't want to wait till 40,000 till Suzuki do it.

 Profile  

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:00 pm
Posts: 10555
Location: Melbourne

Post Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 2:17 pm 
Reply with quote Top  
Well, that table comes from TCI, who know a thing or two about building heavy duty transmissions. Yes, they do sell fluid too. It's 100% in their interests to tell their customers their autos are really durable, yes? But heat kills autos, and when TCI sell an auto they sell it with a massive cooler to go with their fluid and they'll warranty an auto handling very high power so long as you use their cooler and fluid. I'm sure TCI fluid exceeds the specifications of Dexron II. Does stock Suzuki fluid? Does it need to if the trans isn't being cooked?

Yes, I'm fully aware that many autos can last and shift well with black fluid in them - an example might be the TH180 or even the AW-4 used in the Vitara, where the auto is running at something less than half it's designed maximum torque. They won't be fussy because they're never working that hard. My AW-4 has 250,000km on it and I don't think it had ever had the fluid changed in it when I pulled it out of the donor vitara. Having said that, in a vitara they run stone cold.

However, the auto in the Jimny is right on its torque handling limit in a completely standard Jimny. I've driven a Jimny auto equipped car with correct gearing and 26" tyres and the speed the auto heats up to over 100˚C on the highway once the converter unlocks is alarming. Even on a cold night and with the aforementioned very large cooler.

Experience has shown me that running like for like, the Jimny auto runs up to 50˚C hotter than an AW-4. Which one is going to need the fluid changed sooner?

Considering:
The cost of replacement Jimny autos (Over $8500 new from suzuki)
The limited source for rebuild parts
A complete lack of upgrade parts
The reluctance for Suzuki to warranty any vehicle that looks like it's been off road
The known heat problems these autos suffer from
The fact they are on the edge of their design envelope
And the low cost of a transmission temperature gauge and ATF,

I'm suggesting that very conservative trans fluid changes, and careful monitoring of transmission temperature. What are you suggesting DC3PTIKON?

Steve.

 Profile  

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2014 3:46 pm
Posts: 149
Vehicle: Vitara SV420

Post Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:00 pm 
Reply with quote Top  
A heavy duty trans is one thing, a Jimny trans is another. Same, but different. And of course they sell you a massive cooler and their fluid, then say you're now covered by warranty. It's good business $$$
Yes I agree with a conservative fluid change, a good external cooler and monitoring fluid temps. If this is done the fluid will remain in good condition for quite a while. But I think the 5000km interval is a bit short. Half the recommended interval should be more than enough in my humble opinion.

 Profile  

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 05, 2014 12:20 pm
Posts: 919
Vehicle: Vitara 1994

Post Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:22 pm 
Reply with quote Top  
Thanks for the reply guys.

I have looked around at common problems with the jims here. Generally they are considered bullet proof reliable. 99.9% are stock and running close to stock tyres due to the need for power in the dunes so you never hear of driveline diff issues. If you see a broken one it's generally the auto trans. And it's not really surprising as most would go offroad. And running in deep sand hi or low range for hours straight in near 50deg temps would kill just about any trans.

I haven't got a gauge or after market cooker on there, but if I put one on it will void the warranty. Is there a stock sensor I can tap into with a obd2 dongle? I also think the ًgcc spec cars come with a cooler. Will double check. If they don't maybe I will say screw the warranty and install a cooler and gauge.

 Profile  

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:00 pm
Posts: 10555
Location: Melbourne

Post Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:33 pm 
Reply with quote Top  
D3CEPTEKON, I never, ever claimed that vet 180 change his fluid at 5000km intervals.

What I did say was if the trans has been exceeding around 120˚C, which, if you had a Jimny auto, you'd know, because you'd have fitted an uprated cooler and gauge, you'd be doing changes every 5000km.

However, I'm concerned that apparently vet 180 seems to have stock cooling and no gauge, and has been heavily loading the auto.

I'd be doing a change, and whilst the fluid is out of the auto, fitting a gauge and the biggest cooler money can buy. Then he'd be informed as to when to change fluid based on the temperatures he's been seeing rather than some generic distance. 40,000km is probably based on an average speed of 40km/h, or 1000hrs. But at lower speeds and higher loads, that 1000hrs might be 20,000km, it might be way less.

vet 180 - you've already voided the warranty by use. If you lunch the auto and the fluid is cooked, there's no warranty based on "abuse" - sadly that's the reality and something we see here in Australia all the time - if there's any evidence the car has been used off road, warranty is denied. You're only covered for fair wear and tear.

No, you won't have driveline or diff issues in sand. It's all down to heat in the auto. It's an auto designed for the 660cc JDM cars which are lighter and more deeply geared, so they can't load the auto up as hard. With the taller gearing of the 1.3 and the added weight, they're undersized.

Steve.

 Profile  

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 05, 2014 12:20 pm
Posts: 919
Vehicle: Vitara 1994

Post Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:39 pm 
Reply with quote Top  
In the deeper sand plenty of cars have diff issues. Xj jeeps, jk's jeeps on 35's etc

Interesting about te warranty. I have been considering forgetting the warranty and getting it serviced outside but maintained well as the Suzuki services will be more.

 Profile  

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 9:00 pm
Posts: 2202
Location: Brisbane
Vehicle: SQ625

Post Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 11:19 am 
Reply with quote Top  
Get suzuki to fit the guage and cooler then it should not void the warranty


Last edited by got_bar_work on Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
 Profile  

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:12 pm
Posts: 414
Location: Maryfarms
Vehicle: '87 LWB

Post Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 6:33 pm 
Reply with quote Top  
What exactly is off-road use....how can Suzuki know the difference between road and off=road use ?

bye

 Profile  

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 05, 2014 12:20 pm
Posts: 919
Vehicle: Vitara 1994

Post Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 6:50 pm 
Reply with quote Top  
got_bar_work wrote:
Get suzuki to fit the guage and cooler then it should void the warranty

Will look into it

 Profile  

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:00 pm
Posts: 10555
Location: Melbourne

Post Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:10 pm 
Reply with quote Top  
Standard trick is to pull the door trims. Dirt inside the doors= bye warranty.

Happened to a Pajero owner who tried for warranty after thrashing the car down the canning stock route. Car was presented to Mitsubishi spotless. They pulled the door trims- outback dust saw to the warranty.

 Profile  

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:00 pm
Posts: 10555
Location: Melbourne

Post Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:20 pm 
Reply with quote Top  
There's obviously a little more to the story than that, but a dead transmission and loads of sand in all he nooks and crannies, evidence the axles have been making heavy contact with the bumpstops - the manufacturer can get out of it if they want to. (Depending on local laws)

 Profile  

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:00 pm
Posts: 10555
Location: Melbourne

Post Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:25 pm 
Reply with quote Top  
Also consider what locally fitting a gauge and cooler implies- that the factory car is inadequately engineered. No importer would be willing to make that call- it would jeopardise the relationship with the manufacturer and move liability for repair from the manufacturer to the importer.
I know I'm sounding melodramatic, but nobody wants to pay out for warranty to 50% of the cars wholesale value. They'll do anything to avoid it.

 Profile  

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 05, 2014 12:20 pm
Posts: 919
Vehicle: Vitara 1994

Post Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 10:53 pm 
Reply with quote Top  
Gwagensteve wrote:
Standard trick is to pull the door trims. Dirt inside the doors= bye warranty.

Happened to a Pajero owner who tried for warranty after thrashing the car down the canning stock route. Car was presented to Mitsubishi spotless. They pulled the door trims- outback dust saw to the warranty.


Car would have crap loads of dust, but all cars do here. Even ones that haven't been offroad

 Profile  

Online
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:00 am
Posts: 14152
Location: Here there everywhere
Vehicle: A manly awesome man jimny

Post Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 4:01 am 
Reply with quote Top  
vet 180 wrote:
Gwagensteve wrote:
Standard trick is to pull the door trims. Dirt inside the doors= bye warranty.

Happened to a Pajero owner who tried for warranty after thrashing the car down the canning stock route. Car was presented to Mitsubishi spotless. They pulled the door trims- outback dust saw to the warranty.


Car would have crap loads of dust, but all cars do here. Even ones that haven't been offroad


Same where I live. Sounds like either a urban myth or a issue with city dealers. I have never heard of a warrenty claim
being knocked back because of off road driving. A dealer would go broke trying that on where I live

_________________
WANTED LJ20 or LJ50 in good original condition

 Profile  

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 9:00 pm
Posts: 2202
Location: Brisbane
Vehicle: SQ625

Post Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:39 am 
Reply with quote Top  
Warranty dosnt matter in aus just go to consumer affairs and they will make the dealer fix it . Its a 4wd so its ment to be able to handle it .
Do suzuki have any ads with it on the sand. If so then they would have to fix it if u fried it in the dunes

 Profile  

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:00 pm
Posts: 10555
Location: Melbourne

Post Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:32 am 
Reply with quote Top  
Not a myth Shep - I spoke to some of the people involved. It's a long story, but I can assure you it's true.

There are enough stories on here of Suzuki denying warranty due to offroad use. I believe that dealers are under extreme pressure from head office to deny warranty, because warranty claims have to be recorded and they result in poorer JD power statistics, pushing down the reputation of the brand.

Those guys with jeeps certainly haven't had much luck getting consumer affairs to fix their jeeps, which is why I mentioned "subject to local laws" in my post. The OP might have better protections locally than we have in Australia.

You know how they put "closed course professional driver" on the ads - there's the out if you break your car trying to do the same thing. Ad agencies frequently break cars in the process of making ads.

 Profile  

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 05, 2014 12:20 pm
Posts: 919
Vehicle: Vitara 1994

Post Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 3:28 pm 
Reply with quote Top  
got_bar_work wrote:
Warranty dosnt matter in aus just go to consumer affairs and they will make the dealer fix it . Its a 4wd so its ment to be able to handle it .
Do suzuki have any ads with it on the sand. If so then they would have to fix it if u fried it in the dunes


Advertising laws seem different here.

I.E. Billboards of ft86's drifting on public roads, nismo's y62's getting smashed through the desert, even crossover mercs rock crawling in terrain they could never get to and my very favorite the 2016 land cruiser ad that almost bottoms out the front bar just braking at the end of the ad because of its ridiculously low overhanging front bumper:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR9XTgENDBQ

We even get cars with beadlocks as standard equipment so laws are a little different I guess:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3bvjUZoARQ

Drifting on public roads in an ad:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwEenKzyCxY

 Profile  

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:00 pm
Posts: 10555
Location: Melbourne

Post Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 4:09 pm 
Reply with quote Top  
Oh no, all sorts of nonsense is perpetuated in advertising here too, but you're going to struggle to get a warranty claim paid "because you saw it on an ad"

 Profile  

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2014 3:46 pm
Posts: 149
Vehicle: Vitara SV420

Post Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 4:16 pm 
Reply with quote Top  
I think the disclaimer in ads is more to say 'Dont drive like a d1ck on public roads because you saw us do it in our commercial' than about warranty.

 Profile  

Offline
az supporter
az supporter
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:37 pm
Posts: 332
Location: Brizzy
Vehicle: Suzuki Jimny Sierra 2015

Post Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:15 pm 
Reply with quote Top  
The service guy here in Brisbane told me if I install a cooler warranty will be void for the auto but that if it died without being bashed on a rock or such then it wouldn't be a problem. Maybe I should get that in writing :)

Still haven't gotten a temp gauge but have been very mild in 4H 4L and only for no more that 30 minutes at a time. This subject worries me as I don't want to do much other than see the great out doors and not so much drive hard lines ect.

 Profile  

Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:00 pm
Posts: 10555
Location: Melbourne

Post Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2016 10:45 am 
Reply with quote Top  
If fitting a cooler negates warranty, then fitting a gauge will also negate warranty, because either requires modification of a "factory system"

You won't get anything in writing that you're covered for transmission failure other than impact damage, because you're not. "Service guy" was telling you what you want to hear. Frankly, It's not his call, warranty claims are the responsibility of Suzuki Australia, not the dealer service guy. You can try and get a letter absolving you of responsibility for driving the car appropriately (which is effectively what you're asking for) but good luck with that. In the case of warrantied transmission failure, Suzuki will do a LOT of investigation into the use of the car because of the cost of the repair. Burnt fluid is going to be a bit of a tell tale.

It's your call. You can trust that you're covered regardless of how you use the transmission and drive the car, or you can fit a cooler and gauge and be informed about how to prevent damage. The biggest problem is that without a gauge you won't know when to cool it down.

 Profile  

Offline
az supporter
az supporter
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:37 pm
Posts: 332
Location: Brizzy
Vehicle: Suzuki Jimny Sierra 2015

Post Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 2:23 pm 
Reply with quote Top  
Gwagensteve wrote:
If fitting a cooler negates warranty, then fitting a gauge will also negate warranty, because either requires modification of a "factory system"

You won't get anything in writing that you're covered for transmission failure other than impact damage, because you're not. "Service guy" was telling you what you want to hear. Frankly, It's not his call, warranty claims are the responsibility of Suzuki Australia, not the dealer service guy. You can try and get a letter absolving you of responsibility for driving the car appropriately (which is effectively what you're asking for) but good luck with that. In the case of warrantied transmission failure, Suzuki will do a LOT of investigation into the use of the car because of the cost of the repair. Burnt fluid is going to be a bit of a tell tale.

It's your call. You can trust that you're covered regardless of how you use the transmission and drive the car, or you can fit a cooler and gauge and be informed about how to prevent damage. The biggest problem is that without a gauge you won't know when to cool it down.


Hadn't thought about it like that!

Cheers!

PS: Sorry Vet but had to chuck my 2 cents in as we are in the same boat! ;)

 Profile  

Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2015 11:32 pm
Posts: 251
Vehicle: Vitara 1.6

Post Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 7:11 am 
Reply with quote Top  
You could get a case temp monitor and just put the sensor washer under a bolt on the tranny. There are some on ebay that monitor the engine and tranny that way.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

 Profile  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 138 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Jump to:  


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 7 guests

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum
Untitled Document


Untitled Document


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group :: Style based on FI Subice by phpBBservice.nl :: All times are UTC + 10 hours