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Post Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:56 am 
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Sorry this went away - I couldn't find this link again:

https://dba.com.au/download/test/

scroll to the applicable page (P186) and compare the GV specs for "B" -original height. Vitara/Sierra is 46mm, "SQ420" (this is an error and doesn't include the 2.0 litre Vitaras) is 29mm, and larger in diameter. Whilst Spokerider apparently has 1.6 brakes, I believe the "Vitara sport" sold in the North American market shared its brakes with the 2.0litre Vitaras which, as discussed, won't easily clear a 15" drop well rim.

Any progress Spokerider?

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Post Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:58 pm 
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A couple of things to note ...

In the US market SE & SV series vehicles were branded as Sidekicks, and the smaller SQ series (1.6 & 2.0) were branded as Vitaras - there's no 'Vitara Sport', but there was a Sidekick Sport (SV418). The Sidekick Sport does use a larger disk than the 1.6 engined Sidekicks, but it is not the same disk as used on the 2.0 Vitaras.

It should also be noted that in Australia a 2.0 litre Vitara is an SV420, whilst in the US a 2.0 litre Vitara is an SQ420, the SQ420 is known as a Grand Vitara in Australia, and also the US SQ420 and the Australian SQ420 do not use the same disks - the Australian SQ420 uses the same disks as the SQ625, and I believe the SQ625 uses the same disk regardless of the market it is sold into.

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Post Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:40 am 
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Ah yes sorry for the confusion about the Sidekick sport, and thanks for the clarification about the North American market.


I guess my point still stands that the 29mm rotor height will be causing the problem.

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Post Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:45 am 
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SQ625 and lwb sq420 rotors are larger diameter then the SQ420 swb. 310mm x 22mm thick vs 287mm x 17mm the swb ones are the same as a 1.6 but with the gv 29mm hat offset not the 49mm vit hat offset.

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:41 am 
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Any progress?

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:58 pm 
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With better weather here now [ working outside ], I'm onto doing the spua swap.

I usually post over on zuwharrie, so rather than repost everything, I'll provide the link for you to read please. Of course, I would like to keep this thread going too, with new / different chat on the the swap.

I've begun with the steering mods / reaming of parts needed to go spua, and hopefully achieving a flat DL angle doing so.
Once I get the axle housing cleaned up and the panhard bar mount removed from the frame, I'll install the axle again, SU, with just 2 yj leafs, and check articulation, and clearance issues between all of the components.
I've already determined that I'll have better tire clearance with suspension compression if I move the front axle back 1 inch. It's easy to do and worth the effort.
For the first suspension compression test, I'll be keeping the 31's on the 15 x 8" 2.5" backset wheels.......and see what happens.

https://bbs.zuwharrie.com/content?topic=136092.120

I have a question about re-arching yj, or similar leaf springs.
As now, my zuk sits 2" lower in the rear than the front.......because of the 2" lift yj's in the front. Duh. I would like to have the rear sit at the same level as the front, and since the rear, oem 5-pack yj's will be going SU too, this is the time to address it, and get it level.

So, yes, I can buy a set of 2" lift yj's to install in the rear.......my question is about re-arching what I have.
Anyone done this? I have a 20 ton press to re-arch them.
Is this an effective mod? I'm not taking the temper out, arching them, and re-tempering......just re-arching them cold, like the spring shop near me would do.
I would need an added amount of arch to get the 2" height / suspension at rest, whatever that amount may be.
I have Trail Tough Bone Shackles on the rear, have a good pinion angle [ no DS vibes ] and so don't want to change the pinon angle, as it is at oem zuk spec now.

Thots please?

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Post Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:41 am 
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Looks like it's progressing well. I'd definitely get the flatter pitman arm in there - don't be overly concerned about the angle on the drag link - it's not going to be excessive.

Yes, you can cold reset leaves, but why not wait until the front is finalised, and work out how low you can run the front? You might be able to reduce the height of the front, rather than raise the rear.

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Post Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:51 am 
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Thank you Steve for viewing my progress and your thots.

I'll try the flatter pitman out for size.

As mentioned in the other thread, I have 3 main foci of suspension compression interference between component.
1st, is the 31" tires / wheel well fender seam, front edge, just below the side marker lamps. When suspension is compressed in a LR and RF manner, this interference is the first to limit the compression. If I just lift one front tire off the ground, both rears flat on the ground, there is no interference here......still have 2" clearance.

The next two examples, both happen with about the same suspension compression, and happen well after there is direct tire / fender seam contact. Oil pan to axle housing contact and the Chev 1 ton drag link DRE touching the yj spring. Both happen when I bounce / cycle the front suspension by hand, both rears tires flat on the ground. When doing the "opposing tire" compression test, neither of these touch without me moving the suspension by hand to get more compression out of it.
At the end of the day........all 3 contacts are pretty close in the 2-3" of suspension compression range.

I will be modding the oil pan for more clearance, and installing the flatter pitman will net me another inch of clearance there. Not wanting to cut out the front fender wheel wells at this point. I need to get driving this rig.....even if it means dealing with tire rub on occasional sections of trail or ditch crossings. In time, I'll cut the fenders. I would prolly go to a 30" tire however, if that would make a noticeable difference in clearance here. ??

I'll address the rear spring height when the front is dialed in.

I do have some questions about OME yj springs, possible options for the rear, maybe you guys can help with please. So very little info available regarding their specs.

What are the differences, between;
CSO37R [ standard spring 2" lift, soft top ]
CSO36R [ heavy duty spring, 2" lift, hard top ]
CSO14F [ front spring, 2" lift ]

Again theses re all 45" long, yj application springs, front and rear are the same length.
Leaf count? Leaf thickness? Arc design....crescent vs parabola?

Thots?

Thank you.

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Post Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:00 am 
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If you want to remove the funky shackles, have you considered doing a small chassis extension, so you can run a desired shackle at the appropriate angle?

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Post Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:16 am 
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For the time being, I'm going to bolt the missing links closed. My front bumper mounting would have to be totally redesigned.

I've decided to go about this swap in stages. Mostly, because I don't know exactly *when* I'll be happy with the handling and at what stage of the mods will be needed to get me there. I have not driven an array of zuks with mods to have the experience to compare my oem zuk driving experience, or my spoa handling / driving experience to. So I'll do some mods, drive it, and re-assess.

Possible future mods..... trim the front fenders, make aluminum bumpers, make my own front yj shackle mounts.

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Post Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:18 am 
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Going to do a copy / paste from my other post.
Hoping you fellas have some insight to share on this topic please.

"More thots on lift and sketchy handling........

With some google research, I was / am trying to find a "name" or label, as to what exactly was happening with the suspension dynamics with my zuk, spoa, and why it just felt a little "sketchy" like it had a mind of it's own on corners and bumpy roads.

It appears that the effects of bumpsteer is only one facet of the equation, and another issue, prolly contributing more to the wonky handling than just bump steer is "roll steer".

In a nutshell, this very complex interplay between roll steer, roll axis, roll-oversteer and roll-understeer can be summed up by the greatly simplified analogy of how a skate board steers with body roll. When our tall, lifted zuk rolls to the outside of the curve in turn, essentially the front axle is being pushed forward [ on the outside wheel ] and the rear wheel is being pushed rear-ward [ on the outside wheel ] as the wheel lifts and the shackle closes. Now the zuk is steering itself to some degree, just like a skateboard, without any steering input from you / me. This is "roll over-steer". Thats what I have! A lifted skateboard.

Some links if you're interested;
https://www.aev-conversions.com/12-thin ... gineering/

https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/desert- ... front.html

https://landrumspring.com/technical/lea ... formation/

And it gets more complicated.......roll steer, roll axis, shackle length, shackle angle, spring arch, spring-eye placement height relative to each other, amount of suspension travel, vehicle COG, and more are all dynamically interconnected. Change one of those, and yer changing the others too.

It makes my head hurt [smiley=eek7.gif]

Supposedly, changing the caster angle [ to whatever it needs to be ] can help mitigate this roll-oversteer.

Which brings me back to spring arch / amount of lift.
How much suspension compression do I need or can I live with [ spring arch and lift ] vs too much roll-oversteer? By design, a leaf-sprung vehicle will always have *some*.

Experience, thots and opinions on this always welcome "

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Post Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:17 am 
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Here are some pics of yj spua that I just did. So far just the fronts have been done, I still have the rears to convert to sua.

I'm wondering IF i need to tweak the yj spring packs in the front.
As the packs are set up currently, with even one hand on the bumper bull bar, I can get the suspension cycling with say....3 or 4 good strokes and have the suspension compress to 2" to 3" with each arm pull. I was doing this to simulate suspension travel........2" to 3"......to assess for clearance issues.

Shocks are not installed.

Is this spring "rate" too soft?
Is the "load" rate to light?

I could live with this 2"-3" of suspension compression, considering that too much more up-travel ?will? potentiate roll-oversteer......unwanted sketchy-handling characteristics.
So yes, I do want a soft ride [ yj's with not too-high of a spring rate ] but don't want to blow through the full travel to bump stops with hitting moderate dips and humps in the pavement.

Do I........add another leaf and keep the free camber the same?
Re-arc the 4 pack leafs for more free camber? If so, how much more arch does one know to add? If I add more spring arch, will it make the rate just a little bit more progressive, thus increasing the spring rate enough in the last inch or so of up-travel?

I plan on using the lightly valved 170 / 60 Bilstien shocks.

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Post Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:11 pm 
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That shackle angle looks bad if that's the vehicle at rest. They are already close to the anti-inversion bar and you say you can compress the suspension 2-3" BY HAND? Would really appreciate a chassis extension to get that shackle angle right.

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Post Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:32 am 
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Ok, you say the front shackle angle is bad. What is wrong with the angle? Forgive me for asking, but I'm always open to thots and opinions and the rationale as to "why" it is so. I'm trying to understand the theory behind suspension kinematics.
Having the shackles at this angle "soften" the spring rate, as opposed to....... if they were perpendicular to the leafs, then the spring rate would be the full xxx / in lb that was designed into the leaf pack. Other than that, what changes?
The shackles have full range of movement to parallel orientation, with suspension compression, before the "anti inversion" bar comes into contact with them.

Those are the Trail Tough missing links, designed specifically for the Samurai with yj springs. In the pic, they are in the "closed" position, as they would be driving down the road. They were designed so that IF stock, oem Jeep Wrangler springs are used on a Samurai, the pinion angle, and thus the camber remain unchanged, from suzuki spec. That's the theory on them anyway. I'm not saying that they are correctly engineered, or the desired shackle angle, just that someone with much more knowledge than I on the subject designed them.
I know that shackle length, [ height of the leading spring eye relative to the rear eye ] is also a factor that can change the "roll center", as well as caster angle.

I plan on bolting the missing links closed, so they do not open up with suspension drop.


Before I began this spoa to sua conversion, I took note of how much suspension travel was used when driving at 40-80 kmh and hitting a bump and ensuing dip in the pavement. On these harder hits, the full suspension compression [ I had 2.5" or so ] was used, and I felt the bump stops. This has me thinking that I'd like the spring rate higher [ maybe more free camber in the springs ] or the load rate increased [ maybe add another leaf ]. I dunno which would suit my needs better just yet. Currently, I have the first two leafs from some unknown brand of yj "lift" springs and the lower two leafs are from oem flat yj pack. I configured these for spoa.
Please recall, I just completed this 10 year long build, and got the zuk on the road this last fall, so with breaking in a rebuilt engine, working out the bugs and all, I still have very few hours driving it [ spoa ]. It didn't take me long to determine however, that the spoa handling wasn't for me.

By laying on my side in front of the zuk, observing the springs compress, one arm on the bull bar, pulling / cycling the suspension, I could get 2-3" of movement going. That is the best example of the amount of effort needed for the suspension to compress that I can come up with with the zuk in my driveway. I have no idea as to how many inch-pounds that correlates to.

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Post Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:31 pm 
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I appreciate you're trying to get this right from the outset, but I'm going to suggest forgetting about the springs for now - right now you need to put the flat pitman arm on, drop the rear back to SPUA, fit some shocks, and start properly flexing the suspension to work your clearances out.

2-3" of flex pushing the car up and down on one side with no shocks in it doesn't prove anything, but it's a positive sign the suspension isn't too stiff.
using 3" of compression travel on road at 80km/h is surprising, but again, it's only an anecdotal number and not important. I'm sure you're going to have a few goes at springing the car before your happy with it, but that's no big deal, it's just playing with leaves you already own.

With your axle location and tire size you're going to have to do some work on the front guards. That's inevitable, and an insignificant job.

It doesn't matter what the spring rate is because it's user adjustable.

I can't see how you can achieve full compression on that front end with those anti inversion bars in place. As 303zuke points out, the shackle is almost in contact with them. I know you seen committed to retaining that junk, but to me the shackle hanger looks to be in the wrong position for the shackle length, main leaf length, and desired compression travel. Personally, I would have pulled it all off, tacked some 2X4" RHS in place as an extension, and reset the shackle hanger based on the compression travel, and leaf length you want to run, and an approriate shackle length.

Also consider you can't confirm tire/ guard clearance until your shocks are in place as they will determine the extent of droop travel. The amount of droop you have will determine how high the tire travels in the guard on flex with the bump stop (more or less) the fulcrum.

Steve.

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Post Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:27 am 
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When you say "front guards", is that the same as front wheel-wells, below the side marker lamps and below the head-lamps? Not familiar with your terminology.

The missing links.....when I compress the suspension, the shackle does move more horizontal, as is designed, but I get the 2-3" suspension compression [ and component interference ] before the shackle stops ever limit the shackle travel.
Yes, I could add tube frame extensions, and redesign the shackle location and shackle length. The truth is, I do not know what the optimum shackle location, shackle angle, or shackle length should be. I know the science / kinematics behind this is much more than it appears, to engineer it correctly. If I get it wrong, I'll just mess up the caster, and perhaps other dynamics of the suspension.
I need to research the correct way of going about this, so I have a positive end result to work towards.

Ok, about figuring out clearance issues for tire contact.........
I need to install shocks, as the shocks will limit the amount of axle drop on the low-side of the axle as the tire goes into a hole / ditch. Got it. Also that the bump stops also act as a fulcrum point for the axle to pivot upon. Got it.
I'll install some bump stops in the oem location where they should contact the top of the axle tube, on the flat surface of the Sky-brand spoa spring mounts, that I had installed for the spoa build. I'll hope for a gap of say....2.5-3" between the rubber stop and the spring perch flat. Then compress the suspension, and see if / where the compressed tire is hitting.

Is compressing the suspension to identify contact points, on opposing front / rear wheels, like I've done, the correct way to test this?

Any links, pics, and thots on how to design the correct shackles, hangers and lengths for my build would be greatly appreciated.
Again, thank you for your help guys.

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Post Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:48 am 
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Yes, (mud) guards = fenders=wheel wells .

I'm not convinced you have (or are currently able to) compress the suspension hard enough to prove the missing links aren't a problem. Your car is still sitting quite high by SPUA standards, and if you're limited to 2" of compression travel before component interference causes contact you, in reality, only have 1" of compression travel available. You want 1" of clear air between the axle and any other component at full compression. 2" is probably enough for general use, 1" is probably not.

You can't install bumpstops with 2.5"-3" of clearance and hope for the best if you only have 2-3" before contact with something solid under the car - you'll need to bumpstop so that you have 1" of clear air between the axle and whatever it touches when the bumpstops are forcefully deflected. evenly - not with the other tire drooped. tis is because bumpstops compress, but also, that the engine, (for example) and everything attached to it drops when the car hits an impact.

You can fully compress the suspension with a regular floor jack - put the jack under the front axle, and chain or strap the chassis of the jack to the chassis of the car. Then attempt to jack the car up. the axle will move up but the car won't.

The anti inversion bars on those missing links are there to prevent the whole thing inverting if it hits something when unfolded. If it's bolted shut they are irrelevant and unhelpful.

The optimium shackle angle, length and location is easy to determine.

Mock up the chassis extension.

determine intended ride height, strip the spring pack to the main leaf only.

Mock up a shackle at a similar length to what jeep use on a YJ

tack the shackle hanger in position with the shackle at what, by eye, appears to be a decent shackle angle at ride height.

Compress the suspension to 1/2 the hight of the bumpstop or the intended bumpstop. eyeball shackle angle. Is it close to inversion? has it inverted? if so, slide the shackle hanger back slightly towards the axle and repeat until the shackle is as flat as possible without inversion. Now fully droop the springs. is the shackle limiting droop? A shackle that's much too short or a hanger that's too far forward might have the shackle reach full rearwards angle without the spring fully drooped, which obviously limits available travel and risks shackle inversion. It's less of a problem than under compression, because you can limit droop with shock length.

Don't overthink caster. Samurai's don't have anywhere near enough from the factory (a legacy of manual steering) if you run the shortest feasible shackle and the flattest feasible shackle angle at ride height caster will be fine.

I don't have the answer for your combination - locally we have little to no experience with YJ springs (the YJ was never sold in our market) and we don't have your engine (and that conversion is almost unknown here)

Yes, the way you're attempting to identify wheel well contact points is valid, but you need to apply a LOT more force than you are. Jacking (or lifting) the left rear tire high enough the ground to get the right rear tire off the ground will work the front fairly hard. you can then check clearance for the right front tire. Remember this will only work to check clearance whilst flexed, not under full compression which is where your axle/oil pan/clutch cable bracket interference will be an issue.

Steve.

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Post Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:41 pm 
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Thank you Steve. More sound advice.
I'm working on the rear spring conversion to spua now.

Shocks for spua Suzuki's. .......... Can you guys please offer up suggestions as what are good shock options?
I can get Bilstien 5125's in 170/60 valving, and prolly ARB Nitrocharger shocks, and I'm sure other brands are obtainable too.
Just looking to see what others have used and your reviews on them.

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:37 am 
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ImageDSC04428 by broken zuk, on Flickr

ImageDSC04425 by broken zuk, on Flickr

ImageDSC04426 by broken zuk, on Flickr

ImageDSC04430 by broken zuk, on Flickr

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:48 am 
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Pics are of spua conversion completed.
There is 3.5" front / rear susp compression before hitting the bump stops.
No bump steer with the "new" drag link and tie rod. No interference with any steering component / frame / axle / etc....
Caster is 5.5 degrees.
Grand Vitara 16 x 7" wheels, 4" backset.
215 85 16 tires

Handles better than it is did spoa, but still have "slow to return" to center steering.

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:28 pm 
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Try taking the steering damper off (just undo it at one end) and see how the steering feels. Mine did similar, not wanting to re-center on it's own, and removing the damper fixed it (it was seized up). No ill effects to not running it (not even noticeable)

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:48 pm 
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I ran it without the [ new ] ome steering damper, and it was slow to return to center. I guess I could remove it again and see what happens.

At the time, I still had 15 x 8 x 2.5 back set wheels and 31" Pro Comp mudders. I have determined that for my off road excursions, that is just too much tire weight to get up the steep mountainous logging roads around here. Also thinking that the 10.5" width tire is playing into the slow to return steering?? Kinda like the tail wagging the dog, so to speak.

I have since installed GV wheels and 215 85 16 tires. Tall and skinny. This tire / wheel combo is 54 lbs vs 71 lbs for the Procomp's and steel wheels.
Will the 4" back set of these 7" width wheels make a difference in handling?? Dunno…….guess I'll find out when I test them.

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Post Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:18 am 
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I run 31x10.5 tyres and it re-centres very strongly. What is the condition of your steering box?? That could also be a culprit if its run dry?

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Post Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:57 am 
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Well I had to remove the GV wheels and 215 85 16's and put the 31's with 2.5" backset wheels back on. On full lock steering, the DRE was hitting the inner wheel lip, limiting full lock travel. Looks like I'd need a 3/4 or 1" spacer to make these wheels work on the front.

Yesterday, I removed the OME steering damper and backed all 16 knuckle seal bolts off, enough to allow for a 2mm gap between the oil seal retainer rings and the oil seal itself. These two mods made a real difference and I can live with the slight steering memory like this.
I'll try washers to space the oil ring retainer off the seal...….to achieve that gap on most of the seal surface. Or, maybe try doubling up on the felt seal to add "cushion" effect and thus less pressure on the seal itself.

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:54 am 
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Check the knuckle preload as per fsm.
The path you're taking seems like a road to crazy wobbles to fix something else in a super dodgy way.

Your poor return to centre may be a result of incorrect caster angle.

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Post Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:18 am 
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jdk81 wrote:
Check the knuckle preload as per fsm.
The path you're taking seems like a road to crazy wobbles to fix something else in a super dodgy way.

Your poor return to centre may be a result of incorrect caster angle.



King pin shim / knuckle preload was bang on correct when checked.
Caster angle is 5.5 degrees.
Have no steering death wobble, now or in the past.

Sometimes a "super dodgy" correction is required to fix a less-than-perfect aftermarket component.

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