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Jimny stud pattern independent rear end
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Author:  KYPHONII [ Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Jimny stud pattern independent rear end
I'm interested in possible suspensions options for an aluminium light weight trailer PROJECT
As it appears the heaviest component will be the suspension.

What independent rear end vehicle has Jimny stud pattern ?

Cheers
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Sun Sep 29, 2019 7:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny stud pattern independent rear end
Ford f100 front, Lada nice front. Nothing with rear Independent suspension I can think of, and you don’t need it- you don’t need a driven hub.
Author:  KYPHONII [ Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny stud pattern independent rear end
Gwagensteve wrote:
Ford f100 front, Lada nice front. Nothing with rear Independent suspension I can think of, and you don’t need it- you don’t need a driven hub.

Hoping for a aluminium swing arm
With the hud and brake.



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Author:  Gwagensteve [ Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny stud pattern independent rear end
Nope. You’ll have no joy there.

I don’t even think the M151 MUTT built by Ford was 5 on 5.5.
Author:  ZUZUKI [ Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny stud pattern independent rear end
Trailer places will have, or can get hubs in 5 stud F100 pattern (that's what most will call it).
If it is a light trailer, either standard / common Holden or Ford bearing options will be fine.
Won't need brakes if gross trailer weight is under 750kg, although Suzuki might want a braked trailer at less than that.
Some of the high end camper trailers might use cast alloy swing arms, but likely to be exxy.
I looked at doing this sort of thing years ago, & the best I could come up with was Mecerdes-Benz 116 & 126 S Class sedan swing arms, with Sierra 'Sunrasia' steel wheels, re-drilled to suit the M-B stud pattern.
Never went ahead with it though.
Rgs, Michael
Author:  Bobsan [ Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny stud pattern independent rear end
Purchased my F100 hubs to suit Suzuki pattern from Holroyd https://www.utowpia.com.au/hubs
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny stud pattern independent rear end
Hubs are easy. OP was specifically asking about a swingarm with a 5 on 5.5 PCD.
Author:  jonfromhamilton [ Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny stud pattern independent rear end
aluminium will stress over time and you will need more of it to get the same strength. not worth it imo for the small weight saving
Author:  KYPHONII [ Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny stud pattern independent rear end
jonfromhamilton wrote:
aluminium will stress over time and you will need more of it to get the same strength. not worth it imo for the small weight saving

All performances suspension components are aluminium.
Rear motorcycle swing arm hang pretty well.
The old wives tail about aluminium fatiguing is as valid as steel fatigue when poorly engineered.


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Author:  Gwagensteve [ Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny stud pattern independent rear end
By all means pursue aluminium, but it's not an old wives tale that aluminium is prone to fatigue - it absolutely is. Very intelligent part design, heat treatment and engineering can overcome these issues, but lets not forget that most commercial airliners are flying around with fatigue cracks all over them. They're well understood and managed, but that doesn't mean fatigue is "an old wives tale" - aluminium is very sensitive to cyclic load, much more so than steel.

I work in the metallurgy/engineering field. I've seen some very interesting problems due to aluminium fatigue cracking.


Not "all performances suspension components are aluminium" - I'd suggest you have a look under a top level offroad race car- they deal with about the highest loads in motorsport. You won't find much aluminium. Some class 1 uprights and the occasional upper A arm. In fact the more I think about it, the less aluminium I recall seeing in motorsport suspension - Just did a quick and dirty search on WRC suspension thinking it would be full of aluminium, but no, steel ( I assume CroMo) tubular arms and aluminium uprights.

Repurposing a trailing arm from some other vehicle to fit to your trailer wouldn't be a case of good engineering, it would be a case of "suck it and see" - exactly the applications where aluminium's weaknesses are most evident. There's nothing wrong with an experiment at all, but claiming on the one hand that it takes good engineering to prevent fatigue in aluminium and then looking for some random part from another application to try under a trailer seem a little contradictory.

A trailer axle doesn't need to deal with drive loads, and each wheel is only going to see 300kg or so, considering the maximum tow capacity of a Jimny. It doesn't require a very complex solution. If you're aiming to save weight over a conventional beam axle/slipper spring suspension, you might be surprised.
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny stud pattern independent rear end
For reference, the M151 MUTT does appear to have a 5 on 5.5 PCD, a small drum brake, and is a simple swingarm.

I think that's as close as you're going to get.

Arm is steel, and the general arrangement is pretty similar to what many camper trailer manufacturers use.
Interesting the M151 had a terrible reputation for handling, mostly due to roll oversteer caused by the swingarm, but that's not relevant for your application.

I have no idea how the bearing/hub arrangement is assembled, so I don't know if the stub axles can be removed without having the wheel fall off.


Image
Author:  KYPHONII [ Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny stud pattern independent rear end
I've been playing with aluminium for 40 years.
I haven't had a fatigue failure to date with any of my fabrications.
I've repaired plenty of steel failures over 40 years, problem with steel's is that to keep weight down they push the material to its limits.
I've offers wondered on the cyclic stresses of high performance internal engine parts and there durability. Million of cycles under heat, vibration and load.
A couple of aluminium piston and or rods propelling a few tonne around for a few hundred thousand kilometres and what percentage of them fail.

Trailer suspension components seem like a black art to me.
There are a lot of contradictions in some of the setup running around.

Ive installed independent (landcruiser wheel) systems on 3500kg trailers and the independent suspension is still a big question mark to me . Why the love. I will be building my own 3500kg trailer soon and at this stage it will be roller rock springs.
Author:  KYPHONII [ Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny stud pattern independent rear end
Flexiride looks to be the best option at the moment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEwBhVyP4Io
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny stud pattern independent rear end
There's another way of looking at the point you make about steel vs aluminium - aluminium fabrication on vehicles isn't weight conscious at all - because it's lighter than steel, so everything is made out of material so thick it's relatively unstressed. Take a relatively light aluminium part like a dropside tray floor, expose it to impact and vibration, and it falls apart pretty readily. We still see very little aluminium used structurally in the aftermarket. I know Currie Enterprises have done some work with aluminium knuckles and centres but they aren't recommended for the heaviest duty use.

Engine parts are easy - they work within a very specific design window where stress and temperature limits are governed and well understood. However, take an aluminium engine part beyond it's design parameters and it will fail readily. (G16B head, anyone?) another excellent example is the Rover K series engines being used in Lotus Elise's in the 90's - the tuned versions of these engines had a terrible reputation for failure and (in short) the cause ended up being due to vibration outside of the engineered limits.

Much of the trailer suspension "design" is about marketing. I don't think there's much design involved in many of the products out there - customers want coils and brightly coloured stuff under there. If you want a reference for a properly engineered trailer suspension have a look at the Track trailers MC2 suspension, it's a very clever design in it and it could all be readily replicated with Rover parts.

For a tandem trailer though, anything that doesn't load share is pointless so roller rock springs are perfect for the application.
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny stud pattern independent rear end
KYPHONII wrote:
Flexiride looks to be the best option at the moment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEwBhVyP4Io


ALKO have offered that product for many many years.

Not sold on the idea at all. They don't seem to "ride" in the conventional sense and I've seen then taking on some interesting camber/toe angles when laden.
Author:  KYPHONII [ Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny stud pattern independent rear end
Gwagensteve wrote:
KYPHONII wrote:
Flexiride looks to be the best option at the moment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEwBhVyP4Io


ALKO have offered that product for many many years.

Not sold on the idea at all. They don't seem to "ride" in the conventional sense and I've seen then taking on some interesting camber/toe angles when laden.




The ALKO does not impress me.

The FLEXIRIDE is a British origin and just has engineering evident all over it compared to the ALKO.

I have been involved in ALKO installs and when spec close to there limits they appear to be at there limits. Not inspiring.

The FLEXIRIDE offer a lot more in specification and the solid rubber block appears to negate the dodgy camber caster issue with the ALKO rubber idea.
I don't see an issue with a 750kg light duty trailer. The suspension unit weight and the trailer structure needed to carry the units are very efficient weight wise.
Author:  shakes [ Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny stud pattern independent rear end
Gwagensteve wrote:
Much of the trailer suspension "design" is about marketing. I don't think there's much design involved in many of the products out there.


From a mate of mine that was in the industry as an engineer, the process goes a little something like this....

Marketing : What do we need to do to sell more, and have a point of difference over the competitors.
Engineers : We can kind of make it work, but it wont be ideal.
Marketing : Great, I'll start selling.
Author:  303zuke [ Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny stud pattern independent rear end
Gwagensteve wrote:
If you want a reference for a properly engineered trailer suspension have a look at the Track trailers MC2 suspension, it's a very clever design in it and it could all be readily replicated with Rover parts.

For a tandem trailer though, anything that doesn't load share is pointless so roller rock springs are perfect for the application.

Track's MC2 is brilliant for a single axle trailer, but for Tandem applications SIMPLICITY AXLES are far superior to a roller rocker design. I have two trailers with this set up, and they are simply awesome.

Unlike a roller-rocker design, they don't transfer jolts or shock loads to either the trailer chassis or the load on the trailer. Designed as a module in a variety of wheelbase, track and capacity configurations, they mount to the trailer chassis across a much broader contact area, reducing concentrated stress points. If you've ever done any outback touring, there are an absolutely astounding number of trailers and campers that you find damaged and abandoned in the most out of the way areas. In almost every case, the irreparale failure iseither too light a hub/bearing choice (or poor maintenance of), or of failure of spring mount welds. And these trailers are often the cheapest types, sourced from a large asian country to our north. Never seen a broken-down Track, Bushtracker or Ultimate with a properly designed suspension.
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