[karlmarkiewicz]

Hello, i have a 1995 LWB Suzuki Vitara, V6 2L.

I was out 4x4ing today when I accidently drove into a crevice/ditch, in attempt to get out of the ditch i was reversing for ages and ages (Foot to floor reversing in 4WD Low), then i heard a very low bang (in the front) continued by loud clunking, the faster the wheels span the faster the clunking. I knew it was a diff/axle problem, but the wheels were still spinning. I continued to reverse out because it was 8pm at this time and i wanted to go home. After a while of reversing (still clunking) i got out. I drove out of the track (2 mins) and parked on the side of the road. I inspected the car (was dark so not in-depth) and i found a hole about the size of a 50 cent coin at the bottom of my diff housing. (See the attached photo, I will post more photos when i get some daylight)

I have a few question regarding this, so i will number them:
1. Does this mean my internal diff gearing it screwed considering it was able to blow a hole in my diff?
2. What would of happened do you think, e.g. did the gears just strip, if so how?
3. I found a front diff for a 1994 model vitara, could this diff just replace my old one without having to cut/weld anything, or without having to replace CV's and drive shafts?

Thank you very much.

Note: I am not a noob with 4x4ing, however i am quite new to differentials and axles (never worked with them), so i might not know the lingo.

[want33s]

1, Most likely, YES.
2, The housing is alloy as is the carrier and when stressed they flex to a point of cracking/exploding.
3, If the 94 diff is same ratio it'll fit and work fine.

I'd suggest you look around for a GV steel housing to help prevent this happening everytime you go offroad.

[karlmarkiewicz]

want33s wrote:

I'd suggest you look around for a GV steel housing to help prevent this happening everytime you go offroad.

Although, since this was internal, couldn't the GV steely just do the same thing? I though the only benefit of a stronger diff housing was it provide better external protection?

Also, Is there anyway i could drive the car in its current state. I left it out by the side of the road over night and was planning to get it towed today, but i figured if im swapping the whole lot, can i just drive it home in 2WD (bout 15 mins)?

[royce]

yeah stick it in 2wd and unlock the hubs and youll be fine to go as far as you want, none of that turns

the reason steel is better is there is less chance of the gears flexing the housing and then breaking the gears, its pretty common for the pinion to flex the housing till it breaks all the way around the bearings

[karlmarkiewicz]

royce wrote:

yeah stick it in 2wd and unlock the hubs and youll be fine to go as far as you want, none of that turns

the reason steel is better is there is less chance of the gears flexing the housing and then breaking the gears, its pretty common for the pinion to flex the housing till it breaks all the way around the bearings

Ohh okay. Well yeah, ill look around for a GV steel one. Would you know if there are any GV steel diffs that could bolt straight in, or would i need to get the internals from a vitara and put it in the steel housing?

I drove it a little while in 2WD (about 2 mins) and there was constant clunking, should i just disregard this? I DO NOT want to damage my car more and pay more than i have to, but i also would like to avoid the $80 towing fee.

[VonDecoy]

Nice Diff hole. I think all the alloy Vitara diffs are compatible. So you should be able to swap it over.
Just make sure you check the ratio. Auto diffs had a different ratio to the manual diffs.

Regarding driving it. It should be fine, in 2wd only of course. I'd maybe jam a clean rag into the diff hole to stop any road gunk getting in if you're planning to reuse the gears.

As Want33s mentioned a Steel housing from a GV will help prevent this next time. But they are expensive. If you can find one.

:edit: Oh look, Royce has said stuff too. Yup, agreed.

[atari4x4]

diff ratio's differ for the SV's & you'll need a 26 spline centre

[karlmarkiewicz]

Yeah, i should have mentioned, my car has AUTO locking hubs. So would that mean i need to find a diff that had auto hubs?? If so how would i know, the diff isn't connected to the hubs.

Also, here is the link to the diff i found on gumtree: http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/brisbane ... 018499270#

[VonDecoy]

Not sure about the hubs. I don't think they make any difference. It's mainly the diff ratio and spline count.
Hopefully someone else will pop on with definite answers.

[atari4x4]

manual or auto trans?

4.8:1 = auto, 4.6:1 = manual

that 1.6l vitara diff on gumtree will be 5.1:1 & most likely 22 spline, you'll require a 26 spline 3rd member to suit which ever trans you have, the other option is it's a good opportunity to bung in a front & rear set of 5.12's out of the 1.6l if you want to correct the gearing after fitting larger tyres.

hubs, can be swapped to manual ones if you want. the auto ones are horrible to use off road as they tend to lock & unlock when rocking back & forth as they can take upto a few feet to engage.

steel diff is a must if you don't want to keep replacing broken bits in the front end, i'd suggest throwing a locker & 5.12's at if if you plan to keep it.


oh yeah, you could have put it in 2wd on the transfer & driven it home from where you left it, fuck leaving my junk trackside... i would have slept in it.

[karlmarkiewicz]

atari4x4 wrote:

that 1.6l vitara diff on gumtree will be 5.1:1 & most likely 22 spline, you'll require a 26 spline 3rd member to suit which ever trans you have, the other option is it's a good opportunity to bung in a front & rear set of 5.12's out of the 1.6l if you want to correct the gearing after fitting larger tyres.

hubs, can be swapped to manual ones if you want. the auto ones are horrible to use off road as they tend to lock & unlock when rocking back & forth as they can take upto a few feet to engage.

steel diff is a must if you don't want to keep replacing broken bits in the front end, i'd suggest throwing a locker & 5.12's at if if you plan to keep it.:

It is an Automatic

Would fitting my diff with the 5.12 ratio be worse on fuel as it would be revving out more? Already, it only gets 250 kilometers to the 70L tank which is terrible, i don't want to make it worse.

I think i will look into swapping the hubs over, they keep unlocking anytime i reverse which is a pain.

I do want a steel diff, but it there anyway of keeping my gear ratio the same if i go to a steely? Hahah, this is my first car and im still at UNI, so ill be saving up for a while before getting a locker, definitely will consider it later.

I drove it home today, no clunking noise and it drove fine. Haha yeah, i was tempting to sleep in it, but i know the area well and it was okay.

[christover1]

Having correct gearing makes engine work closer to it's designed rev range,
this usually improves fuel economy, as engine is not so strained.

Km on speedo is not accurate, worse if have bigger tyres, you may be getting more real k's out of a tank than you think

[karlmarkiewicz]

christover1 wrote:

Having correct gearing makes engine work closer to it's designed rev range,
this usually improves fuel economy, as engine is not so strained.

Km on speedo is not accurate, worse if have bigger tyres, you may be getting more real k's out of a tank than you think

Oh, yeah. Never though of that. At the moment i am running 30inch muddies, so you are saying jumping from a diff ratio of 4.8 to 5.12 it would fix my speedo and potentially save fuel?

[christover1]

It would help both, yes.

30" over original 26" tyres is 30/26 = 1.15
So 100 on speedo is about 115 real kph

Your 250Km a tank is roughly 288Km.

4.8 / 5.12 = .93 so 100 on speedo would be roughly 108

A more tech person should critique my sums

[jdk81]

karlmarkiewicz wrote:

Oh, yeah. Never though of that. At the moment i am running 30inch muddies, so you are saying jumping from a diff ratio of 4.8 to 5.12 it would fix my speedo and potentially save fuel?

providing your 4.8 diffs are 4.875
(5.12-4.875)/4.875*100%= 5%
It will correct for 5%

It will help, but not much.
Stock tyres are 26" *1.05 = 27.3" tyre.
With 30" tyres 100 km/h on the speedo is 115km/h
with diff gears done, and 30" tyres
30/27.3= 1.1
So roughly 100 km/h indicated, will be 110 km/h

[karlmarkiewicz]

Ohh okay. Hahah, good job on the maths skills.

Well i will look around for the higher ratio diffs, although that means i need to find a new rear too.

I made a thread asking if people have any, hopefully i get some hits soon.

Thank you heaps!

[karlmarkiewicz]

Oh! One more question.

If i do change my gearing, would i have to install a whole new rear diff from say a 1.6L vitara, or could i open up the 1.6L's rear diff take the insides out and plonk it into my diff housing? Does it work like that? As i mentioned at teh top, im not to savvy with working on diffs.

[christover1]

Yes all the vitara diff ratios are interchangeable as far as I know.
Ring and pinions must be from same diff,
they are matched pairs.
Rng is larger gear, pinion is the smaller

[karlmarkiewicz]

christover1 wrote:

Yes all the vitara diff ratios are interchangeable as far as I know.
Ring and pinions must be from same diff,
they are matched pairs.
Rng is larger gear, pinion is the smaller

Oh okay. So as long as i get all the internals from the one diff, and put them into my housing, i should be fine?

[royce]

jdk81 wrote:

karlmarkiewicz wrote:

Oh, yeah. Never though of that. At the moment i am running 30inch muddies, so you are saying jumping from a diff ratio of 4.8 to 5.12 it would fix my speedo and potentially save fuel?

providing your 4.8 diffs are 4.875
(5.12-4.875)/4.875*100%= 5%
It will correct for 5%

It will help, but not much.
Stock tyres are 26" *1.05 = 27.3" tyre.
With 30" tyres 100 km/h on the speedo is 115km/h
with diff gears done, and 30" tyres
30/27.3= 1.1
So roughly 100 km/h indicated, will be 110 km/h

Stock tyres arent 26" though, they aren't even 205/70r15

Dunno what the actual stock size is though, 5.12 would likely go a long way to 100% correction.

[atari4x4]

SV's run 215/65r16's eg 27's stock


EDIT:

you want a rear "3rd member", remove axles, remove complete diff centre (3rd member) & replace with the 5.12:1 smash the axles back in & you're done.

complete rear 3rd member/diff centre looks like this.


for the front i reckon is going to be a bit of a challenge to find a alloy 5.12 26 spline, think they were only from 96-97 on the 1.6 vits, you might get lucky and be able to reuse the spider gears & carrier from the munched one & build one up using the ring & pinion from a 22 spline 5.12.

i'd be hunting down a GV steel diff, more & more GV's are getting wrecked these days.

[karlmarkiewicz]

royce wrote:

Dunno what the actual stock size is though, 5.12 would likely go a long way to 100% correction.

Yeah the stocks were 27inches.

atari4x4 wrote:

for the front i reckon is going to be a bit of a challenge to find a alloy 5.12 26 spline, think they were only from 96-97 on the 1.6 vits, you might get lucky and be able to reuse the spider gears & carrier from the munched one & build one up using the ring & pinion from a 22 spline 5.12.

i'd be hunting down a GV steel diff, more & more GV's are getting wrecked these days.

At the moment, i just want the quickest and easiest sort of fix. So i don't wanna do much else than just replacing the whole front diff and the 3rd member on the rear.

Is there some sort of chart, or a website that will tell me the spline count of each Vitara, so i know which vitaras/GV's i should look for?

Also, do you know where i could locate a list of the GV's and their diff ratios, so i know what GVs im looking for. I will be heading to a bunch of wreckers tomorrow, so it would be awesome to know befor ei go.

Thanks again

[jdk81]

With stocks being 27" and true 30" tyre
(30-27)/27 = 11%
With a 5% correction on the 1st instance, id be better than what you are used to. But possibly still a smidge annoying

it tyre is an undersized 30" and closer to a true 29"
(29-27)/27 = 7.4%
As royce said, it would go a long way to correct it.
2.4% out would be hard to notice.

As atari stated
The rear diff is easy
Front diff.... you have some decisions to make, based on how lucky you are.

Being cheap, isn't always the cheapest option.
If you spend a fair bit of coin on it, and it fractures later... it will probably cost you more in the long run.

Vit diff ratios
http://auszookers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=6614

[karlmarkiewicz]

jdk81 wrote:

As royce said, it would go a long way to correct it.
2.4% out would be hard to notice.

The only thing im worried about if i put in a 5.12 ratio is that it's going to be revving out more than it already is. At the moment, going 100 km/h it's revving close to 3000 rpm, which just chews my fuel. 5.12 Ratio would have to be worse wouldn't it?

jdk81 wrote:

Vit diff ratios
http://auszookers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=6614

I found a thread with a heap of ratios for all suzukis (http://forum.difflock.com/viewtopic.php ... c633951646) although they don't say the year of the car.
I need to know the year and model of the car because im not too sure how to find the ratio otherwise?

Also, people say some GVs have alloy front diffs (guy in the link above says that), what models have steel diffs and do they come in 5.12 ratio?

[Gwagensteve]

It's not going to be revving out "more" - it's going to be revving within 2.4% of what the factory designed the car to be doing at 100km/h. That's 72rpm at 3000rpm. I think you'd struggle to notice that.

In any case, my quick maths indicates 5.12's near enough put your gearing back to stock. think yourself lucky you can do this - Vitara owners with 5.12 diff gears have no option but to live with poor drivability as they cant fit any shorter diff gears to compensate.

With larger than standard tyres and standard gearing, the car is revving lower than the factory intended at any given speed and this normally results in increased fuel consumption and reduced performance.

[karlmarkiewicz]

Gwagensteve wrote:

It's not going to be revving out "more" - it's going to be revving within 2.4% of what the factory designed the car to be doing at 100km/h. That's 72rpm at 3000rpm. I think you'd struggle to notice that.

In any case, my quick maths indicates 5.12's near enough put your gearing back to stock. think yourself lucky you can do this - Vitara owners with 5.12 diff gears have no option but to live with poor drivability as they cant fit any shorter diff gears to compensate.

With larger than standard tyres and standard gearing, the car is revving lower than the factory intended at any given speed and this normally results in increased fuel consumption and reduced performance.

Although it was revving at 3000 rpm at 100 km/h with the muddies on. So stock would be high rpms than that. I just don't understand how lower rpm could mean more fuel. Bit confused.
Sorry, and thank you.

[atari4x4]

an engine that is operating out side of it's sweet spot will use more fuel

[royce]

karlmarkiewicz wrote:

Gwagensteve wrote:

It's not going to be revving out "more" - it's going to be revving within 2.4% of what the factory designed the car to be doing at 100km/h. That's 72rpm at 3000rpm. I think you'd struggle to notice that.

In any case, my quick maths indicates 5.12's near enough put your gearing back to stock. think yourself lucky you can do this - Vitara owners with 5.12 diff gears have no option but to live with poor drivability as they cant fit any shorter diff gears to compensate.

With larger than standard tyres and standard gearing, the car is revving lower than the factory intended at any given speed and this normally results in increased fuel consumption and reduced performance.

Although it was revving at 3000 rpm at 100 km/h with the muddies on. So stock would be high rpms than that. I just don't understand how lower rpm could mean more fuel. Bit confused.
Sorry, and thank you.

Fuel use has nothing to do with revs and everything to do with how far open the throttle is.
If the engine is operating outside its optimum rev range then you need to give more throttle to get the power needed to do what it has to do, which then wastes fuel.

The bigger gain is in taking off, you use heaps more fuel to get to speed than you do to maintain it, thats where gearing helps (hence why we have gearboxes to begin with)



As to the steel thing, you cant get a 5.12 GV diff and you cant really just bung a complete steel diff into a vitara, the GV has an actuator thing inside you need to get rid of as well so the sgopping list is more like, get a steel GV housing and carrier, and the gears and hemisphere from a Vitara and mix it all together and fit that.

You can get 4.8 (I think) but you still need to swap hemispheres inside.

There is no easy way out in order to make the front stronger, mods cost money

[karlmarkiewicz]

atari4x4 wrote:

an engine that is operating out side of it's sweet spot will use more fuel

royce wrote:

If the engine is operating outside its optimum rev range then you need to give more throttle to get the power needed to do what it has to do, which then wastes fuel.

The bigger gain is in taking off, you use heaps more fuel to get to speed than you do to maintain it, thats where gearing helps (hence why we have gearboxes to begin with)

That makes perfect sense to me. Okay, thanks heaps for that. I called some wreckers and it looks like getting my hands on a steely diff is going to be hard. However, one wreckers said they could extract and give me a Front Alloy Diff and a Rear Diff, both at a 5.1 ratio, for $550. He also said he could give me my Stock (alloy, 4.8) diff for $275.

Good deal? or should i keep looking. i've called 5 places and seems like that was the only place who gave me a straight answer.

thanks.

[karlmarkiewicz]

BTW Atari, i was looking through your 'Just Another Zook' thread. Both/either of those zooks is exactly what i dream for haha. What diff ratio are you running in the LWB? You may have mentioned it but there was 113 pages, i might not have got up to that part.