[Damo]

[royce]

Are the AFR target tables a table that you are telling it at this load point (worked from revs, manifold, tps etc) aim for this mixture, then it alters the injector duty cycle itself based on readings from teh o2 sensor?

[JrZook]

royce wrote:

Are the AFR target tables a table that you are telling it at this load point (worked from revs, manifold, tps etc) aim for this mixture, then it alters the injector duty cycle itself based on readings from teh o2 sensor?

Yes

[royce]

JrZook wrote:

royce wrote:

Are the AFR target tables a table that you are telling it at this load point (worked from revs, manifold, tps etc) aim for this mixture, then it alters the injector duty cycle itself based on readings from teh o2 sensor?

Yes

thats what I had been reffering to as self learning, IE if you were to go and change a bunch of stuff that altered the breathing a lot it would still get to your programmed mixture and not be way off like most ECU's are, assuming it is available at high load points and its not jsut a cruise thing

[Damo]

royce wrote:

JrZook wrote:

royce wrote:

Are the AFR target tables a table that you are telling it at this load point (worked from revs, manifold, tps etc) aim for this mixture, then it alters the injector duty cycle itself based on readings from teh o2 sensor?

Yes

thats what I had been reffering to as self learning, IE if you were to go and change a bunch of stuff that altered the breathing a lot it would still get to your programmed mixture and not be way off like most ECU's are, assuming it is available at high load points and its not jsut a cruise thing

The self learning bit is slightly different. AFR target tables make a temporary adjustment to fuelling, self learning makes that adjustment a permanent part of the VE table by writing it to the EPROM each time it determines that a change needs to be made.

Strictly speaking if your VE table is tuned properly you shouldn't need a AFR target table.

[JrZook]

royce wrote:

JrZook wrote:

royce wrote:

Are the AFR target tables a table that you are telling it at this load point (worked from revs, manifold, tps etc) aim for this mixture, then it alters the injector duty cycle itself based on readings from teh o2 sensor?

Yes

thats what I had been reffering to as self learning, IE if you were to go and change a bunch of stuff that altered the breathing a lot it would still get to your programmed mixture and not be way off like most ECU's are, assuming it is available at high load points and its not jsut a cruise thing

If you run MAP or MAF based EFI systems they will be able to compensate fairly well to mild changes in engine airflow dynamics. These systems actually meter the incoming air and hence dynamically calculate the fuel requirements. Yes the volumetric efficiency tables will be slightly out but the calculation will include the extra air coming in so it wont be that far off. Where you will find major issues once you have chanced the breathing characteristics of the engine is through non-metered EFI systems such as TPS vs RPM (alpha-n). This is not much more than a basic fuel map plotted against engine speed and load.

Dan

[JrZook]

Damo wrote:

Strictly speaking if your VE table is tuned properly you shouldn't need a AFR target table.

Will never get a 100% perfect VE table all the time with the super simple models used. It will slightly change due to other engine/environment conditions. The AFR feedback loop is therefore implemented to monitor the combustion conditions.

[Damo]

JrZook wrote:

Damo wrote:

Strictly speaking if your VE table is tuned properly you shouldn't need a AFR target table.

Will never get a 100% perfect VE table all the time with the super simple models used. It will slightly change due to other engine/environment conditions. The AFR feedback loop is therefore implemented to monitor the combustion conditions.

On a normal everyday engine it wouldn't make much/any difference. On something like a highly tuned turbo engine it would help keep it blowing up due to something unforseen happening.

[JrZook]

Damo wrote:

JrZook wrote:

Damo wrote:

Strictly speaking if your VE table is tuned properly you shouldn't need a AFR target table.

Will never get a 100% perfect VE table all the time with the super simple models used. It will slightly change due to other engine/environment conditions. The AFR feedback loop is therefore implemented to monitor the combustion conditions.

On a normal everyday engine it wouldn't make much/any difference. On something like a highly tuned turbo engine it would help keep it blowing up due to something unforseen happening.

Very true!

[royce]

JrZook wrote:

royce wrote:

JrZook wrote:

royce wrote:

Are the AFR target tables a table that you are telling it at this load point (worked from revs, manifold, tps etc) aim for this mixture, then it alters the injector duty cycle itself based on readings from teh o2 sensor?

Yes

thats what I had been reffering to as self learning, IE if you were to go and change a bunch of stuff that altered the breathing a lot it would still get to your programmed mixture and not be way off like most ECU's are, assuming it is available at high load points and its not jsut a cruise thing

If you run MAP or MAF based EFI systems they will be able to compensate fairly well to mild changes in engine airflow dynamics. These systems actually meter the incoming air and hence dynamically calculate the fuel requirements. Yes the volumetric efficiency tables will be slightly out but the calculation will include the extra air coming in so it wont be that far off. Where you will find major issues once you have chanced the breathing characteristics of the engine is through non-metered EFI systems such as TPS vs RPM (alpha-n). This is not much more than a basic fuel map plotted against engine speed and load.

Dan

Its only metering the fuel as an injector opening time though, its not checking its results to see how far off the mark it is, so you could also lose any benifit in running a so called denser fuel in the traditional open loop modes

The E85 thing looks good too, I was reading about how the sensors work the other day and while its not something that gets monitored on the go it would still be an interesting thing to setup

[Damo]

royce wrote:

The E85 thing looks good too, I was reading about how the sensors work the other day and while its not something that gets monitored on the go it would still be an interesting thing to setup

I was looking at the sensors too, they actually detect the fuel composition as well as the temperature. Also, as part of the composition detection it will also tell the ECU if the fuel is contaminated above a certain threshold.

[Hybrid]

What is the E85 thing you're talking about? Is E85 the standard pump ethanol mix? If so I've run it with my MS and 02 sensor without any problems.

[royce]

nah E85 is 85% ethanol, its what teh V8 taxis use now and will be available through Caltex soon, Holden is releasing a Commodore that will run it or normal fuel

supposed to be able to make good power on it, higher octane but like all alcohols you need to run a lot richer to make power, the sensor detects the ethanol level in the fuel then I assume switches to different tables to suit

[Damo]

royce wrote:

nah E85 is 85% ethanol, its what teh V8 taxis use now and will be available through Caltex soon, Holden is releasing a Commodore that will run it or normal fuel

supposed to be able to make good power on it, higher octane but like all alcohols you need to run a lot richer to make power, the sensor detects the ethanol level in the fuel then I assume switches to different tables to suit

MS doesnt do table switching with the E85 sensor. The sensor is constantly supplying fuel composition data to the ECU and the injector pulsewidth is changed on the fly to correct the mixture accordingly.

You could use 2 fuel maps and not worry about the sensor, but you'd have to empty the tank, fill with e85 and switch the table over. The sensor allows use of a mixture of e85 and whatever else and is still able to maintain proper AFRs. Pretty nifty.

[MrRocky]

sorry to junk up your thread but would and item such as this below simplify things for us rockapes who struggle with the technical part of the managment side of things.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MEGASQUI ... ccessories

[Damo]

MrRocky wrote:

sorry to junk up your thread but would and item such as this below simplify things for us rockapes who struggle with the technical part of the managment side of things.

I'm not sure what you mean by simplify things. That one is assembled and the vendor I fave used before and never had any problems with. You'll still need to do some wiring and configuring the ECU but it would be a good place to start.

[royce]

So say I have a G16B 16 valve and wanted to do away with the MAF but keep all the other factory bits working like the idle control and idle up for AC and power steer, what am I looking at to get going?

Is it a case of getting and ECU, finding a standard program out there somewhere and wiring it in where the factory ecu is? or will other sensors need changing or modding?

[Damo]

royce wrote:

So say I have a G16B 16 valve and wanted to do away with the MAF but keep all the other factory bits working like the idle control and idle up for AC and power steer, what am I looking at to get going?

Is it a case of getting and ECU, finding a standard program out there somewhere and wiring it in where the factory ecu is? or will other sensors need changing or modding?

That's exactly what I am doing at the moment.

The only additional sensor i'm using is a inlet air temp sensor from a V6 Commodore. You could do without it, but it's not hard or expensive to add.

I am pretty sure the idle control valve is PWN controlled. I have setup my Megasquirt for this and will try it out once I have it running. Megasquirt can control an idle valve in closed loop, so will be able to keep an idle with AC or power steer etc etc.

Megasquirt will need to have the firmware modified to suit the voltage vs. resistance curve of the Suzuki sensor. This is not hard to do though, i'll post up the info for that at some stage.

Pretty much the only thing that is difficult to do is the physical interface between the sensors and the Megasquirt. If you are using the stock wiring loom you'll need to do soemthing like the adapter loom i'm using. You could also do a loom from scratch which is pretty straight forward as all the info you need is freely available.

[dezook]

So where in aus can you purchase megasquirt products? Or do you have to order from the US?

[Damo]

dezook wrote:

So where in aus can you purchase megasquirt products? Or do you have to order from the US?

I use DIY Autotune clicky

Here is a link to the purchasing information section of the main Megasquirt site clicky

[royce]

Damo wrote:

royce wrote:

So say I have a G16B 16 valve and wanted to do away with the MAF but keep all the other factory bits working like the idle control and idle up for AC and power steer, what am I looking at to get going?

Is it a case of getting and ECU, finding a standard program out there somewhere and wiring it in where the factory ecu is? or will other sensors need changing or modding?

That's exactly what I am doing at the moment.

The only additional sensor i'm using is a inlet air temp sensor from a V6 Commodore. You could do without it, but it's not hard or expensive to add.

I am pretty sure the idle control valve is PWN controlled. I have setup my Megasquirt for this and will try it out once I have it running. Megasquirt can control an idle valve in closed loop, so will be able to keep an idle with AC or power steer etc etc.

Megasquirt will need to have the firmware modified to suit the voltage vs. resistance curve of the Suzuki sensor. This is not hard to do though, i'll post up the info for that at some stage.

Pretty much the only thing that is difficult to do is the physical interface between the sensors and the Megasquirt. If you are using the stock wiring loom you'll need to do soemthing like the adapter loom i'm using. You could also do a loom from scratch which is pretty straight forward as all the info you need is freely available.

Are you likely to have a working firmware/tune soon my MAF is likely buggered so it might be worth going the whole hog now, wiring it in isnt a drama but I would rather have something thats going to work close enough straight up so I dont have to ride to work

[Damo]

royce wrote:

Damo wrote:

royce wrote:

So say I have a G16B 16 valve and wanted to do away with the MAF but keep all the other factory bits working like the idle control and idle up for AC and power steer, what am I looking at to get going?

Is it a case of getting and ECU, finding a standard program out there somewhere and wiring it in where the factory ecu is? or will other sensors need changing or modding?

That's exactly what I am doing at the moment.

The only additional sensor i'm using is a inlet air temp sensor from a V6 Commodore. You could do without it, but it's not hard or expensive to add.

I am pretty sure the idle control valve is PWN controlled. I have setup my Megasquirt for this and will try it out once I have it running. Megasquirt can control an idle valve in closed loop, so will be able to keep an idle with AC or power steer etc etc.

Megasquirt will need to have the firmware modified to suit the voltage vs. resistance curve of the Suzuki sensor. This is not hard to do though, i'll post up the info for that at some stage.

Pretty much the only thing that is difficult to do is the physical interface between the sensors and the Megasquirt. If you are using the stock wiring loom you'll need to do soemthing like the adapter loom i'm using. You could also do a loom from scratch which is pretty straight forward as all the info you need is freely available.

Are you likely to have a working firmware/tune soon my MAF is likely buggered so it might be worth going the whole hog now, wiring it in isnt a drama but I would rather have something thats going to work close enough straight up so I dont have to ride to work

Yep.

I got it started on Megasquirt tonight. I still have a bit of work to do sorting the cranking and after-start enrichments, but it does work! I bumped up my cranking dwell to 3.5mS from 2.5mS and that helped a bunch.

I'll post up the config once I have it running better, and even then it will change a bit as I fine tune things.

[tanshi]

get too it!! im gonna need a bunch of help getting the 50 running on one of these

[JrZook]

tanshi wrote:

get too it!! im gonna need a bunch of help getting the 50 running on one of these

It'll work good! Get cracking on your manifolds

[tanshi]

soon j20 first

[Hybrid]

Damo wrote:

royce wrote:

Is it a case of getting and ECU, finding a standard program out there somewhere and wiring it in where the factory ecu is? or will other sensors need changing or modding?

That's exactly what I am doing at the moment.

The only additional sensor i'm using is a inlet air temp sensor from a V6 Commodore. You could do without it, but it's not hard or expensive to add.

Aren't you also using a bosch wide band o2 sensor Damo. That's what the plug looked like the other day.

[Damo]

Hybrid wrote:

Damo wrote:

royce wrote:

Is it a case of getting and ECU, finding a standard program out there somewhere and wiring it in where the factory ecu is? or will other sensors need changing or modding?

That's exactly what I am doing at the moment.

The only additional sensor i'm using is a inlet air temp sensor from a V6 Commodore. You could do without it, but it's not hard or expensive to add.

Aren't you also using a bosch wide band o2 sensor Damo. That's what the plug looked like the other day.

Yep Bosch wideband, forgot about that one.

What i'm going to do is get the fuel map tuned and then go back to the stock narrowband sensor.

[Damo]

tanshi wrote:

get too it!! im gonna need a bunch of help getting the 50 running on one of these

The firmware config for a 3 cyl 2 stroke is going to be a little different than the 16v

[flatcat_auz]

E85 is used in Brazil and Holden already produce a commodore which runs on E85 and sells in Brazil.

[royce]

Back again

Ignition this time

is this enough crank wheel trigger to run 2 wasted spark coils on a 4cyl engine