[kingkom]

Hi everyone

I have a 2003 manual Suzuki Grand Vitara SQ625 which I'm currently ordering some 5.72 diff gears for and the supplier asked me if I want 10 or 12 bolt ring gears. I thought all grand vitaras were 12 bolt rear and 10 bolt front is that right?

I'm getting conflicting information from various forums and threads and various workshops so I thought I'd ask here and go with the general wisdom.

Secondly, I know the rear has 1 long and 2 short diff pinions (also fitting a lockright 1512) but how many does the front have? are they all 2 pin? or 4 pin (1 long 2 short)? or 3? Again been getting some conflicting info.

[henno]

Rear is 12 bolt, yes.

Getting some 4xfourart gears I assume? You might be the first on here.

[kingkom]

Thanks!

Yes 4xfourart. Also have their lift kit. Couldn't be happier with it. Build thread coming soon!

[henno]

I have bits of their lift kit here (control arms, front and rear). Interested to see how the gears go. What sort of rubber are you planning on running?

[kingkom]

Around a 31.5-32 so something like a 245-265 70-80 R16 depending on which exact tyre I go with on an aggressive AT with something around a 0 to -20 offset 16x8.

Most likely Baja AT, ST-Maxx or Duratrac in 265/75/16.

I know with 813mm OD which is a 32 I'll have about 3200RPM in 5th at 100km/h which sounds about right.

[klutched]

I'd recommend getting Vitara rear center and gears, as you will be able to pop lockers in both.

[kingkom]

I already have a Lockright 1512 for the rear and a bit later down the road I was planning to run the 4xfourart LSD locker up front. It is designed to give full lock but minus the CV breaking shock load.
Kind of on a bit of a personal mission to see if I can build my car without using any ARB stuff. Succeeding so far. If I end up ever going air lockers I'll get the Protrack ones which are steel and are designed for GV diffs so won't need to go Vit centres. But for now I'm a poor student so this gives me a good balance of having the ratios I want and still locked rear.

Also out of interest, looking at getting my front cv shafts converted to stubs with flanges and running Porsche 930 cv shafts. So far looks pretty simple to sort out and cost will be around a grand.

[Zook_Fan]

kingkom wrote:

...minus the CV breaking shock load.

Also out of interest, looking at getting my front cv shafts converted to stubs with flanges and running Porsche 930 cv shafts. So far looks pretty simple to sort out and cost will be around a grand.

Just on these two points. CV breaking shock load is like twisting a tooth pick, if it's really below that torque it will all but be an open centre.

Second, I was going to do the same with 930 shafts. How are you going to get both travel and steering out of any 930 joint and have the total cost come around a grand? For at least the outers you are going to need non plunging joints, which pretty much only RCV sell and that will bump up your projected cost. Otherwise you are looking at a total of 23 degrees max combined suspension and steering angle. When a Vitara is at ride height with no lift the shafts don't sit flat so you're already using up some of the angle. I don't know how much lock to lock steering they get but it would be in the 20 degrees range so as soon as you are near full lock you're at the max your CV can take and it goes bang.

Next to consider is plunge. Vitara's run a strut set up which does not allow for zero plunge. Assuming you've decided to have some longetivity and went with a non plunging outer all of the plunge will have to be in the axle shaft and the inner joint. After you've made your stub shafts you're going to have to have the centres bored so the axle has clearance through the joint. You can only have a maximum of around 1.5" plunge throughout your travel with these joints or they are going to burn out. If you've modelled it all up and that is possible than ignore this part but for a GV this pretty much put the idea to bed.

In my opinion the only way to do this is to redesign the front suspension. Get rid of the strut, make it a coilover. New lower control arms and make an upper arm to go on as well. Control the plunge through the design and you will end up with a lot more travel. Oh and make it wider and tuck it all inside a huge positive offset rim for the extra travel. When you can do all that for a grand pm me, I'll take two.

[atari4x4]

^^^ this guy know's boat n goats

[kingkom]

Firstly re the diff, as far as I know it's more like an LSD that gradually locks to 100%, the main thing causing breakages in my experience is when your front wheels are spinning then suddenly one gets traction and boom. This is meant to reduce that effect. So far everything I've bought from 4xfourart has been top notch and they do have racing experience so I have no reason to doubt. Of course it's always possible to have breakages but the key word here is reduce. The other advantage to this type of locker is that while it is mechanical and I can't switch it off it still won't cause understeer like a lockright would. End of the day we'll see how it works.

Secondly the shafts. You have obviously done a lot more research than me so far and thanks for telling me all this info. When I said a grand I meant a grand just to get the axle stubbs made up. Then I would obviously need the joints and the shaft. I will unbolt the passenger side cv from its flange and measure the difference in distance between full droop and with a spring compressor in, at a point where the shaft would be horizontal. This will tell me how much plunge I need. This may end up being more than 1.5 inches. Which means either plunging joints on both inner and outer or another option is to use non plunging joints all round and use slip shafts like in this pic:
http://www.cvaxles.com/IMG_0093.JPG

This idea was originally suggested to me by a mate who is a motorsport engineer and they did something similar in their race car at uni, he reckons it should be pretty simple to do. Again, we will see.

My main goal in this isn't to achieve ridiculously long travel (and thus have to compensate for a lot of axle length variation as the suspension moves through its arc), I'm pretty happy with what I have out of the 4xfourart lift kit and I will have a locker anyway for if I do hang a wheel. My aim is to achieve something that is strong, reliable and really quick to swap out without having to pull out the splines of the shafts off road. Much easier to undo flanges.

I appreciate any further ideas though, I'm sure it'll make my life easier in the long run.

[kingkom]

Also, the vit/ranger hybrid shafts and the stub shaft conversion both work on a Vitara so I don't see why this wouldn't be easily doable as they have very similar front setups? Someone on here also did a similar thing to the vit/ranger mod on a GV with pajero shafts. They didn't even bother with plunge, they basically just copied the length of the stock shafts. Like I said, don't need insane long travel. Will be happy with something that can articulate a bit further, is stronger, and is easier to swap out in case of failure.

[got_bar_work]

If u use 930 cv u need the ones that have the balls evenly spaced not in pairs as they can do over 40deg
I would just make them like the ranger hybrids that mick hagen makes
Cut off the stub and weld on a 930 flange then do the stuby mof and use a 930 flange instead of the zook one. Thats all easy its finding someone to make slip joint axle shafts that is the problem

[kingkom]

Yeah.
And the quest begins.
Might start out just getting a stubby made for the driver's side inner so I can run the passenger side flanged CV on both sides.
Baby steps.

Will post measurements and progress up anyway. Gotta make a build thread.

[got_bar_work]

Do a lux cv kit
And buy rcv for a lux
Job done

[kingkom]

That's actually not a bad idea. How much work/cost is involved in that? I've seen the write up and doesn't seem too complex.

[Zook_Fan]

Plunging axles are great in theory but I'd never design something to work offroad with them. Even when that spline is full of grease there is a huge side load occuring to push the axle in and out. They will heat rapidly and wear. That's based on multiple real world scenarios that have tried to use them in a similar way to you are thinking.

And yes, you can calculate the plunge manually. Have a measure and see what you get.

The vit/pajero shafts were attempted on a GV by Klutched. Not sure how they went but he wants to swap to IFS lux so probably not great. When swapping to another manufacturer for axles you don't normally need to worry about plunge too much because the other car has similar characteristics. That is small travel and apporximately the same amount of steering. If you swap to a 930 cv all the engineering is on you.

got_bar_work - The evenly spaced 930's are the non plunging joints. Like I said, if you run 2 your geometry must be perfect.

Considering OP already has the 4xfourart lower arms I agree, run the lux cv kit and go with RCV's if you need more strength. Cost is minimal, get a kit from BenT, a set of cv's and a pair of free wheeling toyota hubs. As for work you'll need to modify your diff drops for clearance but this will be required for the 930's as well.