[dmm]

Hello Zookers,

Back in the 90's a mate had a automatic swb Vitara softtop and I thought it was a great car.

I'm now looking to buy a 4wd as a weekender/second vehicle. I have a family 4wd and have been a member of a 4wd club, but I want something to tinker with and that I can scratch without regret. I'd like it to be inexpensive and economical, although I would expect to make modifications such as tyres, suspension, a winch, and perhaps larger tyres, although changing ratios sounds complicated.

My concerns with the idea of a suzuki is that whilst I'm handy and enthusiastic, I don't think I have the experience, equipment or time to be my own mechanic, and these old vehicles look like they need a lot of attention and perhaps aren't all that reliable.

If I were to buy a Suzuki, I'd sell my 1990 Mazda MX5, which has been a fantastic vehicle and very reliable despite being 25 years old.
Do you think a 1990 Vitara could match that?

Finally. Assuming I get a positive response from this forum, and I'd expect some positive bias, what are the pros and cons of looking for an unmodified vehicle versus buying one that already has some of the work done?

Does anyone know if the Melbourne Zook club is still meeting regularly? The information in the clubs forum seemed a couple of years old.

[Gwagensteve]

We're still as active as ever. Come along to the February meeting.

[alien]

You might be better off trying to find a decent sierra or even an LJ, keep it relatively stock, chuck lockers in and just thrash the pants off it. They'd have more of the bare bones-ness than a vitara, and are much easier to modify on the cheap IMO. That said, purchase price on a sierra is higher than the same year vit these days.

Depending on what type of offroad driving you plan to do and how many passengers and gear you need, that could change the vehicle people may recommend???

[dmm]

Thanks for the replies.
I imagine 1 or 2 people in the vehicle, but practically a four seater would make more sense just in case the other car were unavailable, for example an accident etc.

At this point I think I just need to determine what to look for, and be ready when it shows up.

[vet 180]

In my experience suzuki's are generally more reliable and far for inexpensive to maintain than patrol, lancruiser, pajero, hilux and other capable 4x4's. I have owned the 2 latter and they cost me a LOT more than my suzuki's. I don't think you will be disappointed. It's really the cheapest way to get offroad imo.

[jdk81]

Depends how much offroad you want.

Did you want 2 or 4 door? Short wheel base or long? Tin top, or a soft top?
Any degree of road manners? Any comfort requirments? Hows your back? Hows your hearing?
Sierra swb/lwb, vit swb/lwb, jimny.

EFI has more power and generally more reliable (lwb vit, later swb vit, jimny)
I dislike the carbies in sierras, whilst easily fixable, they often seems to have problems (no experience with vit carbies).

Vit front diffs and cvs imo are a big hurdle, but you can mod around it.
Generally sierras are best with wide track (wt are 1988.5 to 1995) diffs, i probably would look for a wt, as its easy to upgrade the front axles and cvs etc which can handle locked and big tyres.
Finding a NT (narrow track 84-88.5) or 1.0L (81-83) with wt diffs means you need to check the work to see how dodgy it was done.

Mod vs un-mod.
This comes down to each vehicle, each owner and how much they butchered it.
Some cars with mods are fine to buy, others a nightmare.
Buying with mods done can make it hard to work out what parts are what. If there is nasty wiring and other shonkyness it can cause massive issues.
I probably wouldn't buy a car with an engine conversion done.

Sierras have oodles of gearing options.
lots of transfer gears to choose from, and diff gears too.
Many only swap the transfer gears to fix high and low range.

Vits have the one transfer option and its only low range.
only the swb carby auto, gets diff options to correct for the hi range and increase in tyre size.
The diffs are the easiest to swap. (If i was to have a vit, i would do both and gv steel front diff).

Stay far away from a coily (sierra 1996-1998).

Initially will probably have a lot of teething issues, but once you iron it all out, they can be reliable cheap daily drivers.
However wheeling these hard will make them less reliable.

[ZUZUKI]

jdk81 in the last line of his post has the answer - your MX5 probably gets driven conservatively on the road, but if you used more of its handling potential once a month at a track day, then there would be higher mantainence & breakages to contend with.
A Vitara or Sierra, adequately maintained & used purely as a road car would most likely equal your MX5 experience - they are simple, well engineered & built - but they are cheap cars (especially for a 4WD), often bought by people as a first 4WD, who might not have the money to maintain it properly, or the experience to treat it sympathetically & if you use that 4WD potential, there will be higher maintenance & breakages to contend with.
Your MX5 is probably worth upward of $5k - that should buy a very, very nice 1990 Vitara, or very nice 1990 Sierra - both in stock condition.
I think you would likely find a Sierra a rude shock to drive & sorry alien, but an LJ should not be considered, very, very hard to find a good one for reasonable money, very old, even more basic than a Sierra & harder to (easily) modify.
Take a Sierra for a drive, but I think you will probably be best in a Vitara - SWB can carry 4 people & not a whole lot else, but can be had in a soft top, which might partly replace the MX5 fun factor (many Sierra's are soft top as well), LWB 4 door wagon is more practicable, only marginally less capable & mostly fitted with the 16v efi version of the 1.6litre G16 engine - a better bet than the 8v carby version.
My thoughts are you should do it the old fashion way - buy the most cared for, stock car you can find for say $4k, spend a little bit sorting out any little niggles, & the rest on slightly bigger mud terrain tyres & go from there.
By all means take a look at the Vic. Suzuki 4WD club (I've had a couple of goes at being a member & probably should do so again - maybe at the Vic. 4WD show at Wandin) but from what I see/hear, you could be quickly tempted down a slippery slope of modifications to keep up with them!.
Have fun, Michael

[vet 180]

ZUZUKI wrote:

jdk81 in the last line of his post has the answer - your MX5 probably gets driven conservatively on the road, but if you used more of its handling potential once a month at a track day, then there would be higher mantainence & breakages to contend with.
A Vitara or Sierra, adequately maintained & used purely as a road car would most likely equal your MX5 experience - they are simple, well engineered & built - but they are cheap cars (especially for a 4WD), often bought by people as a first 4WD, who might not have the money to maintain it properly, or the experience to treat it sympathetically & if you use that 4WD potential, there will be higher maintenance & breakages to contend with.
Your MX5 is probably worth upward of $5k - that should buy a very, very nice 1990 Vitara, or very nice 1990 Sierra - both in stock condition.
I think you would likely find a Sierra a rude shock to drive & sorry alien, but an LJ should not be considered, very, very hard to find a good one for reasonable money, very old, even more basic than a Sierra & harder to (easily) modify.
Take a Sierra for a drive, but I think you will probably be best in a Vitara - SWB can carry 4 people & not a whole lot else, but can be had in a soft top, which might partly replace the MX5 fun factor (many Sierra's are soft top as well), LWB 4 door wagon is more practicable, only marginally less capable & mostly fitted with the 16v efi version of the 1.6litre G16 engine - a better bet than the 8v carby version.
My thoughts are you should do it the old fashion way - buy the most cared for, stock car you can find for say $4k, spend a little bit sorting out any little niggles, & the rest on slightly bigger mud terrain tyres & go from there.
By all means take a look at the Vic. Suzuki 4WD club (I've had a couple of goes at being a member & probably should do so again - maybe at the Vic. 4WD show at Wandin) but from what I see/hear, you could be quickly tempted down a slippery slope of modifications to keep up with them!.
Have fun, Michael

Sound advice!

[Gwagensteve]

Personally, I'd stay away from a 1990 vitara. They are very early cars and use the 8V carby motor. This isn't really suuzki's best work, being a long stroke version of the sierra motor. If you want a car that's 25 years old (lets say for club reg purposes) I'd be looking for a 1991 LWB vitara. These all have power steering and the much better G16B EFI motor. An added bonus is the (common) AW-4 automatic - a really excellent automatic gearbox. LWB vitaras also have a larger fuel tank and are much better climbers owing to the longer wheelbase.

The 1990 vitara's use the trimatic auto which is a pretty poor gearbox by comparison.

LWB vitaras are now very cheap. They are frequently so cheap now they're being parted out rather than sold as runners. A good car will be well under $5K, less if you're unconcerned about cosmetics (many have fading metallic paint now)

HOWEVER...

Quote:

Initially will probably have a lot of teething issues, but once you iron it all out, they can be reliable cheap daily drivers.
However wheeling these hard will make them less reliable.

This is the absolute truth.

These cars are very reliable and very cheap to own when used as a daily driver, but the more off road work they do they more work you have to do to them. If you aren't prepared to do any of that work yourself, I think you'll find any 20+ year old 4WD uneconomic to own. (I've owned all sorts of old and new 4WD's to form this view)

Please don't think I'm being negative (and Its certainly not directed at you), but I'm in my 23rd year of Suzuki club membership, I've seen this pattern repeat over and over.

A 20+ year old car will need at least some work to get it into reliable condition. Expect that the cooling system, exhaust, maybe alternator or starter will need attention. Maybe it will have an oil leak from the rear main or similar perhaps a bent axle or split CV boots. This work generally absorbs a lot of the budget the owner put aside for modifications. Subsequently, they head out on their first trip(s) thinking the car is in tip-top condition but lacking some of the equipment they wanted to extend the car's capability. They have a difficult time due to the lack of equipment, feel like they're struggling, push the car too hard to compensate and might have a breakage because they haven't tested the car or got around to the upgrades they really should have considered.

They then get disheartened because they've spent their budget, have a broken car they don't know how to fix and think that Suzuki's are unreliable/weak/the club are all crazy and break cars.

Said person then starts on huge build thinking that that's what they need to go 4WDing and they are never seen again, with an unfinished project languishing in their shed.

Really, I can't tell you how many times I've seen this happen.

It would be exactly the same if you tracked an early MX-5, as has already been pointed out. It'd overheat because if the 25 yo cooling system, you'd have to put a new motor in it, run out of money to do the suspension and rear cradle bushes, thereby making it handle poorly and you'd put it into the wall.

It's all about aligning your expectations with your budget and experience. A good driver can drive a terrible car nearly everywhere, moreso if they are confident and experienced in it. Additionally, I have a long view about hobby car ownership. I've had my current off road car for something like 9 years. It's only in the last couple of years I've got it to where I wanted it to be. I've learned tonnes of skills along the way by biting off a bit more than I thought I could chew. I think most of the fun of owning an older car is from working on it. Improving the car as your skills improve is what this hobby is all about. Sure, there's scenic stuff to see and being in the bush is relaxing and a lovely diversion from the day-to-day, but seeing improvement in the car and gaining confidence is a terrific feeling.

Whilst the big cars and trips in the club get all the attention, the bulk of members run tyres in the 30" range and with very mildly modified cars with a low total investment (or mildly modified near-new cars) they're doing easy to medium trips and aren't interested in 35" tyres and rolling their cars.

To move on to your specific questions:

Definitely come to a club meeting. Talking to other club members who drive local tracks will help to refine your choices.
We are also running a technical day at my place in Kinglake in a couple of weeks where we can spend more time discussing the pros and cons of various cars and modifications. It might go some way to demystifying how easy these cars are to work on - they are nothing like a more modern car. A 10,12,14,17,19mm socket and a phillips head screwdriver will basically totally dismantle any Suzuki product from the 90's. I'd really recommend looking on a suzuki purchase as a way to expand your mechanical skills. It's not because it's any more necessary than any other car (and far less so than many) but because they are light, simple, modular and cheap to work on. Paying someone to do anything other than, say, diff setup or a transmission rebuild just isn't justifiable.

I'm not sure a Sierra is the right choice. They are more of an enthusiast car and you need to have a much more hands on approach to modifications. The "big three" improvements to a sierra - EFI, Automatic and power steering all come from the vitara or Jimny and are really only sensible as DIY projects. Yes, the end result will be more mechanically reliable when used offroad, but there's a heavy investment in DIY and compromised road behaviour to deal with.

A LWB vitara is a sound choice, likewise a later model (1994/5 onwards) SWB vitara, which are EFI and have the 4 speed automatic as per the LWB. I would only bother with a SWB if you really wanted a soft top though, the LWB is superior in every other way.

I couldn't recommend a vitara without swapping to the steel front diff from a later grand vitara and 26 spline axles. The front diff breakage problem is real and seems to happen when you least expect it with this model. That and the steering idler arm are really their only Achilles heal(s).

As much as I am no great fan of the Jimny, it's worth considering an early, auto JLX jimny. These are now pretty cheap and with upgraded front axleshafts offer a compromise between the road manners of the Vitara and the manoeuvrability and capability of the sierra. whilst offering the "big three" - auto, power steering and EFI.

Anyways, there's some food for thought.

Steve.

[vet 180]

Another thing I will as add to the above post is that even if the "big project" gets completed the builder often learns so much along the way that he would build the car totally different if he was to start from scratch again.

Also any used car you buy consider at a minimum re-greasing front hubs and axles, changing all fluids including diff (and add breathers) before you even start driving the car. I also recommend driving the car as long as you can in standard/near standard form and only modify the Car as the tracks you drive can no longer be driven.

It might be an interesting perspective but my least favorite off-road car I have owned was my most modified! What many people would consider dream build. 80's solid from axle lux 6 inch lift with OME suspension, 35inch muddies and a 5.0 308 v8 conversion. I can honestly say I enjoy driving my stock Suzuki jimny more

[Gwagensteve]

That's completely true Vet. Two interesting things happen when you build a super capable car for your local terrain.

1) it becomes about the build and not about the driving. The more built up a car is, the less trips it goes on.

2) It's hard to deal with the weight of expectation. A standard car will get stuck, but if it's well driven, it will always surprise you where it will go. Once you have all the gear, the expectation is that you can drive anything, so you can only ever be disappointed. If you build something capable enough to drive all your local tracks without issue, trips are often boring because they're too easy.

I'm pretty much in this position with Piggles. Its quite capable in its local terrain, which after nearly 9 years of building, you'd hope was the case. However, that means I'll only bother to take it out if I think the terrain is going to challenge me and the car. That means it doesn't go out much. Even at Bill's block where the terrain is stupid crazy technical, I can pretty much lap all the tracks all weekend without issue. Thats sounds like and awesome position to be in, but it all becomes a bit "matter of fact".

[Gwagensteve]

The happiest place to be is wheeling with a bunch of supportive mates with different cars of similar outright capability. Over the years in our club, this happens all the time. There's a solid core of guys running 30ish" tyres and driving good medium tracks in a mix of late and old model cars. Their trips are great fun because they frequently find tracks which stretch them a little. A standard car can go on these trips (and frequently do)

There's also the "krawler crew" running 34-37" tyres. We barely ever go out, and we're endlessly discussing our next builds. When we're all together it's super happy times, but there's very few trips and tracks that we can be bothered committing too. I don't think any of us regret building our big cars for a moment, but there is NO connection between the size of the car or project and the amount of fun you can have driving - the obstacles just get bigger, that's all.

Some of the best trips I've ever been on have been with predominantly standard cars that's because when you're on a trip the car is secondary to the people you're on the trip with. 4WDing is a social activity for me. I can drive my car up and down Rocky track all day. That's a pretty boring way of spending a day. However, go out with ten different cars and drivers and it's the best day ever.

[alien]

^^ This. I love getting out there with stock-ish vehicles and spotting them up something they thought was impossible. It's great fun and very satisfying.

[vet 180]

Very true. We all drive zooks, so we all must have some element of being drawn to the underdog!

It one reason I haven't really started modding the jimny yet, I honest feel I haven't pushed the limits of what the car can do stock in the current terrain I drive. Still have a lot to learn. I wheel with a LWB paj. 2 xterra 's, an r50 pathfinder, a Prado and a old live axle grand Cherokee. Even with this current line up my car is the one normally stuck the least and the Swb is a huge advantage in the terrain we drive. So I just don't feel the need to mod it yet, and despite the fact I have over 20,000kms I also feel I don't "know" the car well enough in its current form. Or I am just getting old and boring and sick of having cars in the garage than on the road.

[Gwagensteve]

I'm not surprised you don't feel the need to modify wheeling with those cars.

I couldn't be bothered going on trips with big cars. Too slow/too much recovery/make everything look hard.

Years ago we were on Ellis track when it was wet. We'd spent about 45 minutes on the track, played with some silly lines etc, then caught up to a group of 37" tyred V8/Turbo diesel "comp" style patrols. they been on the hill for 5 hours when we got to them. They persisted for another hour while we played on the rock garden and watched them winch. They gave up, headed back down, and we were at the top about 20 minutes later.

Big car cars have their place, but for capability in terrain they're not the right car.

[ZUZUKI]

I very much agree with Steve's thoughts on this.
I am one of those guilty people of thinking about, & planning a big build.
Bought a LWB Sierra 12 years ago, drove it on a couple of trips pretty much std (215/75R15 BFG M/T was it), got about 1/2 way through modding it, life got in the way & now I think that some of the bits of the way it was built, are no longer the way I want it to be - which is part of the reason why I haven't really got back into it.
In the mean time (as a longer time Land-Rover fan, than a Suzuki fan) I've had 3 Range Rover Classics - the 1st two stockish (bit of lift, bit of tyres).
Current car is well suspended, well tyred, up-graded axles & double diff locked etc - and pretty boring to drive, as in you point it at something, hit 2 blue switches if you think it needs, & up it goes - there is very little 'challenge' in that (for a car that also gets daily driven - I can't afford to drive stuff that has a high probability of breaking the car.
I can honestly say, that the best single 'drive' I have done, was with one of the earlier RRCs, getting up a technical rocky climb, undiff locked, just maneuvering & picking lines, really working with the car to get it to go up this hill it shouldn't really have been able to get up (and no-one on the trip thought it was possible - other cars that made it were locked) - definitely an underdog moment.
I have driven the same track in my current car, & while it is still not 'easy', it is nothing like the same sense of achievement when I got up.
The only real problem, is that there are an awful lot of those 37" tyred V8 / Turbo diesel 'comp' style patrols, digging big ruts, that make lots of tracks inaccessible to a 30" tyres Vitara.
Buy the best condition LWB Vitara JLX (P/S, A/C, C/Lock, Elec. windows - the last 3 of which probably won't work quite as they should) - auto if you want, that you can find, mod it mildly, have fun wheeling it & try not to be tempted to modify it much further, as it is hard to go back & arguably, not as much fun when you get there.
Rgs, Michael

[Qthefun]

My first 4x4 was a $2500 86 paj, epic great fun and never cared about breaking it! I bought the Jim after looking at what was around new and didn't want to spend $50k but still wanted 4wdL mostly want to go camping and see some stuff most people will never see and take a photo so when I get old and I'm getting driven by a computer controlled car every where I can look back and remember "the good old days!".

I swear before buying a Zook I had seen 5 of them my entire life (36)... now I see them everywhere the more I look at them the more they make sense, not stupid heavy, great on fuel, easy to work on, got a unique factor and lastly fun to drive on and off road

I drive for a living and if it was a Zook I'd do it for free

[MrRocky]

Stock or mildly modded is definately where the most fun is to be had.
i swap tyres often to stockish and often just enjoy being the passenger/spotter
trying to convince people that there car is capable enough to drive an obstacle.
Stockis sierra with a few bashplates/sliders/front/rear bar is prob my pick to take out for max fun, damage is the only thing that ever dampens the stocker experiance

[MrRocky]

Stock or mildly modded is definately where the most fun is to be had.
i swap tyres often to stockish and often just enjoy being the passenger/spotter
trying to convince people that there car is capable enough to drive an obstacle.
Stockis sierra with a few bashplates/sliders/front/rear bar is prob my pick to take out for max fun, damage is the only thing that ever dampens the stocker experiance

[Gwagensteve]

Just interesting to note the op hasn't visited since the day he posted this question. Strange.

[Qthefun]

Gwagensteve wrote:

Just interesting to note the op hasn't visited since the day he posted this question. Strange.

Or life got in the way? but the internets is a strange place

[Gwagensteve]

Oh it's a valuable thread and hopefully others find and benefit from it, but it's odd nonetheless.

[Qthefun]

Gwagensteve wrote:

Oh it's a valuable thread and hopefully others find and benefit from it, but it's odd nonetheless.

I have an additive personality... for good or for bad!

I find myself here nearly every day! beats a long list of crap I used to do

Wife loves that I don't play games any more but the credit card is starting to get empty... but in a good way!

Super keen to get a leafy and have a play some time later in the year!