[Moo Man]

Hi Everyone,

I've had a look on the forums and there's been a tone of helpful information for a noob like myself, I've just got a few things that I haven't been able to find I want to ask here.

First a bit of backstory for anyone who cares, otherwise appreciate you answering the below questions.

I recently inherited a 1995 Suzuki Sierra Soft top 1.3L (SJ413?) from my grandfather-in-law the engine is great but the body is a rust bucket. Because it has sentimental value for my wife's family (and even myself to some extent) I'm going to put in the hard work and just completely fix the body. Because there's a lot of rust and it's never been repainted, my plan was to strip the whole car back to bare metal, epoxy prime and then raptor line in an effort to avoid any rust coming back. There was also an incident with an old UV joint which caused some damage to the underbody, driveline, and gearbox.


1) Is Epoxy primer dangerous to spray? I was told by a mate with a fair amount of car experience not to spray epoxy primer unless I have a professional booth & suit, any merit to this?
a. Any comments on if I should even bother taking it back to bare metal and priming? There are some rust spots that have to be cut out.

2) Is 3 Gallons of raptor liner enough to completely respray the whole car, inside and out, underbody included? The softop was replaced with a fibreglass canopy so also spraying that (unless you guys think that's a bad idea?).

3) General consensus after reading a couple chains is the best/simplest tyre size for the sierra is 235/75r15.
a. I live in QLD is there any way to get this legally approved? If not, what are my chances of getting caught and fined with that size?
b. I've also seen some conversations about the 1L transfer case having slightly lower gears to the 1.3L case. Would a 1L gearbox be a sufficient drop in gears for these tyres instead of having to pull the transfer case apart and install a new set? (I've tried researching but I still can't get my head around gear ratios)

4) The smell of fumes is very strong when I turn the car on, I’ve never owned a carburetted car so not sure if this is normal or not? Have inspected fuel lines and no leaks that I can see, pretty sure the fumes are from the exhaust.

5) The intermediate shaft was damaged thanks to an old UV joint breaking. Are there any substitute shafts I can use or do I need to go find one from a Suzuki Sierra? Asking because they are an absolute pain in the ass to find, and new ones are like $300-$400.


Happy to post some pictures once I figure out how, I'm pretty excited to get this bad boy in good shape to go camping with my family.

Thanks guys,
Mitch

[Joe]

1. I'm not sure on what paints are safe to spray outside of a booth (I'm sure someone here will be able to help with that) but ppe is always a good idea

2. Why paint a car in raptor? I can understand under a car or as a bed liner but on an exterior finish just looks cheap and nasty just my opinion.

3. 235's are a good size on a sierra I ran them for a few years, no idea on QLD rules but I guess it depends on the copper that pulls you over.
Not need to pull gears apart, a 1L transfer (with a switch) will bolt in just need to your 1.3 flanges for the tailshafts to bolt up too.

4. Standard exhaust exits to the left side to avoid fumes if it points straight out the back will be most likely cause.

5. UV joint? Do you mean uni joint on a tailshaft? If yes just find one from a wreck if yours is damaged beyond repair.

[Moo Man]

Thanks heaps for your reply Joe.

I decided on raptor because of the whole rust thing. I wanted a paint that was tough and going to last because I tell ya what, I bloody hate body repair work. I also want to get it on some 4WD tracks and I've heard raptor holds up well from chipping and dents. Oh, and apparently it's forgiving on beginners (have never spray painted anything in my life).

Awesome about the T-case, what I take from your answer is the gears in a 1L case will be good enough for 235s? I'm not looking to do anything too extreme at this point just hit up some camping spots with the family, glass house mountains could be fun.

The exhaust does point left, the problem isn't the fumes when driving but when I start it in my drive way just standing next to it gets very smelly. If I started it in the garage I would probably pass out from all the fumes haha. Haven't been able to take it for a spin since it was garaged for a little bit due to an accident (details below).

Yeah I meant uni joint and tail shaft. Talking to Americans you pick up a few bad habits I wasn't in the car at the time but I was told while my cousin was driving it that the uni joint on the tail shaft broke and the tail shaft just went spastic, dented the gearbox tunnel, put a whole in the gearbox and snapped the yoke off the tailshaft. I haven't properly inspected the tailshaft but I'm willing to wager there are probably a few dents in it as well which would put it out of balance (or so that's what I've read).

Cheers,
Mitch

[Gwagensteve]

I don't mean to be pessimistic, just pragmatic. Please take that on board when you read this.

Don't worry about what your top coating the car with for now. You're a very long way from that. Personally, I think raptor is OK for a bush pig but it won't prevent rust and it always looks a bit, well, rough. It's a cheap way to make a car with rough panel work look OK, but that's not anything like a restoration.

How much fabrication and panel work experience do you have? welding Sierra panels is a nightmare, as is fabricating replacement patch panels. There is likely a lot of this in your future.

If you haven't started to disassemble the car it's likely you haven't seen anywhere near the full extent of the rust. If you're saying it's a rust bucket without disassembly and a full assessment, it's likely not worth repairing. You're likely only seeing a small amount of the total corrosion that's present.

I don't know how you intend to take the car the bare metal, but if you have't painted anything before I wouldn't do this. The factory zinc chromate primer and undercoat process will outlast anything you can do at home. Additionally, there will be rust trapped in pinch welds which will spread under coating. Sierras have big flat but not very straight panels. Most home resprays end up looking pretty wonky. Again, no issue for a bush car that just needs to be one colour, but that's not a restoration.

235's can't be approved in QLD, they're more than 50mm larger than the standard tyre.

The tail shaft can't dent the transmission tunnel - it's well downstream of that. I think you were right in the first case, the failure was on an intermediate shaft uni (we commonly refer to it as the jackshaft) This is a common failure on cars which aren't maintained. This is the short shaft between the gearbox and the transfer case. It spins 1.4 times faster than the tail shaft and nobody ever checks them as they're way up in the tunnel underneath the car. Uni failure is often spectacular and as you've found causes lots of additional damage.

I can't comment on what's a normal amount of fumes but it sounds like maintenance wasn't all that thorough, it's likely the carburettor is out of adjustment along with ignition timing and perhaps replacement plugs and leads would be helpful.

They're just service/maintenance items though. The killer will be the mount of rust repair you have an appetite for. as you're in QLD I assume the car has seen beaches which means there will be salt in every crevice etc that's rusting. Every bit has to come out before you seal it in with new paint or it's just going to come straight back.

[Moo Man]

The legend himself replies! Like I said I've been prowling these forums just as a reader for a while was hoping you would reply haha. Anyway to answer your points.

I have absolutely no experience with panel work of any kind or fabrication, I do however have people around me that have experience restoring cars which I will 10000% be calling on for help. I guess maybe my post description wasn't technically correct then and this won't necessarily be a restoration just an improvement on its current state. I'll definitely be giving the car a new sort of look while also still trying to maintain the stock look somewhat. It's intended to be used as an introduction to 4WDing, so I'm not looking for it to be the best looking car or win any awards.

The car is already in pieces, that's one thing I love about Sierras everything just seems to bolt off, the doors, windshield, front end, roof, etc. makes things easy to do things slowly at a time. The only thing that's left in the car is the engine and wiring harness including in the dash. That's why I figured it was time to write this post and get some advise before I use my tax return to buy a bunch of supplies. I'm definitely open for my mind being changed on some things, but I will say I'm pretty firm that I do want to fix it up, like I said for sentimental reasons but also as a learning opportunity. Everyone has to start somewhere, right.

In regards to the extent of the rust you're correct I did find more as I pulled apart the car :'( Luckily! A lot of it was in the pillars that hold up the roof, I forget what they're called. So I managed to just throw those out and then get a replacement set which are far less damaged. Ideally I would've liked to keep as much as the original as possible but man, these things were just gooooone. The floor panel has rust holes as well, pretty much exactly below where those pillars sit (which I think is common?). Other than that there are a couple little rust spots around the car, some all the way through others appear to be surface. Maybe my wording of rust bucket was too harsh.... I'll try and link some pictures I don't have Imgur so not 100% sure how to do that but I'll figure it out.

To be honest I'm still not sold on how I will take the car to bare metal (if I even decide to do so, you seem to think I shouldn't) everyone seems to have an opinion on this. I found these "Strip Disks" that can go on a grinder or drill and I was just going to use those. Since I've got the car apart and I work full time the plan is to do the car very slowly in sections - e.g. do the door one weekend then the bonnet another weekend, etc. I think starting small then working my way up to what's left of the shell is the best tactic, that way I get more efficient with time as I practice, and also better with technique. If I don't go down to bare metal, what about the rust spots that have to be cut out? They will still need to be primed and then top coated, right?

Super shame about the 235s. Would you say I'll see a noticeable different between 215s (max legal limit, right?) and 235s? If not maybe best to just stick with what's legal. To anticipate your next question regarding tyres, I'm not sure what types of tracks I'll be focusing on yet, most likely a fair bit of beach but the glass house mountains also look like they could be fun.

That's fine about the fumes, I'm totally happy to do mechanical work like adjusting carbs, changing leads, sparkplugs etc. and I have some experience with that so I'll get to that once everything is put back together I think. My biggest struggle and just complete lack of knowledge is in regards to the body work, I'm definitely lost in that regard.

Thanks again,
Mitch

[Gwagensteve]

What’s your budget?

[Moo Man]

At right this second, I've got 3k to spend. Over the next 5 years slowly adding modifications and fixing stuff, probably another 10k.

I don't really have a strict amount I've said I will spend on it however I know money disappears quickly when working on cars :'(

[Gwagensteve]

You need to be honest with yourself about how long you want this car to be around. If it's a toy for a couple of years to have fun in, do the minimum possible. If it's something you and the family feel some sentimental value in having it rust out or look like junk pretty quickly might not be what you're looking for - It might be worth getting it dome properly (and goodness knows clean sierras are worth a small fortune now).

Either way, don't take the car to bare metal unless you are prepared for all that 3K to be gone before you get anywhere near top coat. Strip disks will leave a mess. part of the problem with sierra panels is they're super thin and flat so they distort with heat really, really easily.

You can't take a car to bare metal with sandpaper and home tools. You'll end up with a raft of different finishes, you'll end up with all sorts of nooks and crannies with remnant rust trapped in them, and you'll spend most of your time sanding for hours on panels which have perfectly good undercoat (and or topcoat) on them. Sand through it and the bare metal will immediately start to oxidise. and you'll be chasing your tail.

Raptor lining the outside of the car won't make a blind bit of difference to it rusting. That's largely why I said don't worry out the top coat yet, get rid of all the rust. They rust from the inside out. Inside cavities, on pinch weld seams, under floor mats. Up under the cowl on the corners where the windscreen bolts in. completely disassemble the interior, strip all the body deadening, confirm its 100% rust free, then epoxy undercoat and raptor the inside.

Yes, rusted sections will need to be primed and topcoated, but why strip and paint a whole bonnet or door from scratch if there's no weld repair on it? scuff, localised repair, prime and top coat. Save your effort for the rust repairs which will wear you out.

Yes, there's a difference between 235's and 215's thats why people take the risk, but 235's require gearing correction and 215's don't, so there's that.

[Moo Man]

Thanks you've given me some stuff to consider. I've pretty much stripped the whole thing. Give me a day or two and I'll take a bunch of pictures post them here and then once you've seen it maybe that will help the assesment a little bit.

Definitely want to keep it for as long as possible.

[Brenno]

Largest tyre that came on a sierra is a 6.00 r16 which is 28.9 Inch which is what a 235/75/15 measures.
50mm bigger than that is 30.9 inch.

You should be able to run 30x9.5r15 or 245/75/16 legally. I know in Tas you can without certification. Will require transfer gearing to make it usable.

[Gwagensteve]

Commercial 1.3 litre Sierras (2 seat variants and tray backs) were placarded for a 6.00 16, four seaters were only placarded for 15's. . The fact the cars are mechanically identical has been used to engineer up to 31" tyres on 4 seat sierra variants but the two variants have different ADR codes so doing that is a little bit sneaky. (A bit like the MA/MC approval code more recently on other cars.)

If it works in Tassie great, but it's not that straightforward for all states, where the view is the maximum tyre size for the variant is what's on the placard.

[Moo Man]

Alright! Got some photos together finally.

http://imgur.com/gallery/cqFDshO

Steve, thanks heaps for your input. So just to make things clear based on your response I think I'll abandon the idea of going to bare metal everywhere, it will be a waste of time and with my limited experience I'll do more harm than good.

However, I think I still want to give a crack at painting it and removing the rust, based on the pictures how bad do you think my situation is? I don't need the car to look super pretty, that was never the goal but I do want it to be safe and rust free. I still think raptor is my best bet because of my lack of experience and I don't mind the rough look anyway. Heck, I might even roll the stuff on but I'll do some research about that anyway.

I also included a picture of my front hubs, looks like they're leaking? Guessing they will need a rebuild as well? (Finally something fun to do )

Brakes and suspension also has rust! Not as worried about those as an immediate fix, how quickly would you recommend I replace them?

Regarding the tyres, I know there's already a bunch of answers on the forum so I won't push it anymore. I think the plan is to run 235s and a 1L transfer case unless you think that won't work, I'll go with that. It's not going to be a daily driver anyway so that decreases the risk of me being pulled over.

Cheers,
Mitch

[Gwagensteve]

Hmm. Imgur link isn't working for me. You can post photos into threads now you have the photos hosted.

[Brenno]

Photos work for me?

There is a bit of rust there, and its going to be a pain to fix, but not unachievable.

[Gwagensteve]

Worked on my phone.

Yeah, that body is pretty far gone. I suspect there's considerably more than you can see there. The rust is in the most complex places to repair.

Anything is possible with enough time and skills, but if you're asking friends to do it for you they're not going to stay good friends. Best option would be to find a wrecked tub and cut out the areas you need, but you'll need to find a damaged (rollover or collision damage) tub that's not equally rusty.

The exhaust manifold and around the front crossmember is nothing, that's just surface rust.

[Moo Man]

Hey Guys,

Just to clarify when I said I would call on friends I meant on their expertise and some guidance definitely would never ask someone to do this much work for me for free.

So I'm gonna go for it and see what happens, maybe I'll post an update in a few months time. I guess there's just still a couple pending questions:

1) Does it matter that the suspension has a bit of rust on it in the short term?

2) How much $$ do you reckon I'm looking at assuming I do it all myself? (Just the rust repair and paint)

3) Steve, you said you suspect there would be more rust, where else would you suggest I look?

4) assuming I stick with raptor liner, is that appropriate to use on the underbody?

While this chain has been pretty sobering I'm still bloody keen to get this bad boy on the road. Suzukis are such sick little cars I can't wait to see what adventures I get up to in it!

[Gwagensteve]

Moo Man wrote:

Just to clarify when I said I would call on friends I meant on their expertise and some guidance definitely would never ask someone to do this much work for me for free.

No, I understand, but if you can't weld thin panel and don't have fab fabrication tools and skills, you're really going to struggle to complete this yourself. This is a very sizeable project.

Quote:

1) Does it matter that the suspension has a bit of rust on it in the short term?

No. It doesn't matter in the long term either. Surface rust isn't relevant.

Quote:

2) How much $$ do you reckon I'm looking at assuming I do it all myself? (Just the rust repair and paint)

Depends on how many tools you need to buy and the standard you want the car completed to. I think you'll burn through your $3K.

Quote:

3) Steve, you said you suspect there would be more rust, where else would you suggest I look?

Look everywhere. I suspect the sills are rotten under the sill covers. The firewall under the battery tray area. The pinchweld between the inner and outer rear guards. the pinchweld the tailgate rubber sits on. The bottom corners of the tub each side of the tailgate. Rust where you have it (on the floor below the B pillars) is uncommon. As it's holed, I'd suspect that the closed box section this forms the top of has also rusted. Also, around the bottom door hinges on the tub, the horizontal seam on the tub near the bottom door hinges (it's hidden under the guard) the holes around the windscreen hinge bolts will have let water run down the firewall. Track that.

Quote:

4) assuming I stick with raptor liner, is that appropriate to use on the underbody?

Yes, interior and underbody are good places for raptor liner. As I mentioned though, it will seal rust in if there's anything under it, leading to a bigger problem down the track.

Quote:

So I'm gonna go for it and see what happens

Yes, I was a bit afraid that was what you were going to say regardless of the condition of the car. Seriously consider finding another rust free tub you can swap your hanging panels on to, or a donor tub you can cut the parts you need. Do this before you start or you'll make a huge mess, get demoralised, and most likely give up. This is an advanced project, most experienced people wouldn't try to take on a project this big because it's too time consuming and fiddly.

[shakes]

Throwing in my 2c cause lockdowns and boredom.

Its hard to comment because I dont know you, and how you commit to things. But this is how I've seen these things usually play out.

1 - It becomes a 15 year unfinished project and scrapped.
2 - You go in balls to the wall, spend 15k on tools a couple of short courses. Realise how much labour is actually required... Back to option 1.
3 - Spend the next 15 years as a labor of love, end up scared to drive it.
4 - You surprise all the haters, spend every waking hour on it. Get it done in 2 years and drive the shit out of it.

As it sits, each major spot you've shown for someone that is an ok hobbiest is an easy weekends worth of work. More if your learning, much less if your a pro.
I counted easy 15 weekends in rust repair and general fettling. plus a couple weekends to fix mistakes, plus a couple weekends of disassembly, plus a couple of weekends of fluffing about and prep type work. plus plus. (I also know I'm going to get people slam me for this time frame, I'm talking in dad hours with multiple interruptions. Not tradesman hours.) Ad in a couple of family events and kids sport, and social functions etc. All of a sudden you can see where I get my 15 years from. Not being a pessimist, just trying to make sure you understand the amount of work potentially involved.

I'd look hard at re-shelling with a good body that needs minimal work. with a couple of mates, that's doable over a couple of weekends, and leaves easy things to tinker for the next year or two.

Also, raptor lining is complete rubbish for a car finish unless it's an absolute beater.

[ZUZUKI]

Hi Moo Man,

I'm one of those guys, with a 15 year project car - and compared to your car it had minimal rust.

The idea of finding another tub is a great one - although finding a decently straight not rusty one, is going to be like finding rocking horse dodo.
The number one killer of Sierra's is body rust.
The 2nd biggest killer of Sierra's - is still body rust - after you though you had it under control the 1st time.

Even if you can't find a good tub, get hold of a scrap tub (or part of it) & have a practice go at fixing bad bits of that, to give you an idea what you are in for.

Mechanical things like springs, brakes & even the gearbox & jackshaft bits are going to be relatively cheap & easy to find & fix compared to the body.

A tricky one, as the sentiment attached to this car means that it is more than just any Sierra.
Most would say, keep this one as parts or return some money by parting it out & look for a better car - which you would probably have to spend $8 - 10K buying (and it will still probably have a bit of rust - just what they do, unfortunately. Thin panels + trapped mud / sand + age = rust every time, just how much is the question) but it will be on the road & giving you fun a whole lot quicker than this project will.

Good luck.
Rgs, Michael