[Gwagensteve]

I’m genuinely baffled. You’re typing exactly the same facts as everyone else but your reaching some other, inexplicable conclusion.

Your HX example proves my point. Let me guess, did it have wider wheels/tyres on it?

[Gwagensteve]

As an aside, the struggle you’re having in understanding this is common amongst people with a road car background where the extents of suspension travel are rarely reached or considered.

[GrandVitarasRock]

Gwagensteve wrote:

I’m genuinely baffled. You’re typing exactly the same facts as everyone else but your reaching some other, inexplicable conclusion.

Your HX example proves my point. Let me guess, did it have wider wheels/tyres on it?

No I'm not........

the HX as standard had old 7 inch steel rims and 185/75/16 or similar. I lowered it down considerably and had 245/50/16 on there so yes, the tyres were CONSIDERABLY wider than the stock cheese cutters. So the combination of really fatter tyres and lowering it down bought the distance between the top of the tyre and the under side of the guard considerably closer. And yes, driving on tarmac day in day out, I wouldn't need to consider bump stops, travel, articulation etc etc like I do on a 4x4.

I've had many years experience with a 40 series Cruiser, a 60 series wagon, a GU Patrol, an 80 series Crusier and the Ssangyong Actyon running the 235/80/16 that replaced exactly the same sized tyres as what is standard on my Grand Vitara now and it had very similar wheel arch room as the Vitara......

I know bump stop comes into it once articulation happens.....the original post was purely asking if any had fitted larger tyres to increase clearance and whether or not a lift kit was necessary as part of it.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/0665507 ... id=5436796

[Gwagensteve]

Well you’ve certainly hit the nail on the head with that gif.

[atari4x4]

greyghost wrote:

cause facebook tells them this crap

[Technotron101]

Gwagensteve wrote:

I’m genuinely baffled. You’re typing exactly the same facts as everyone else but your reaching some other, inexplicable conclusion.

Yeah I'm out. I don't know how many different ways we can explain this, but it isn't looking like it's going to click any time soon.

Good luck though, irrespective of the outcome here, I hope your suzuki treats you well in future!

[GrandVitarasRock]

Technotron101 wrote:

Gwagensteve wrote:

Yeah I'm out. I don't know how many different ways we can explain this, but it isn't looking like it's going to click any time soon.

"So the combination of really fatter tyres and lowering it down bought the distance between the top of the tyre and the under side of the guard considerably closer." is the exact OPPOSITE in respect to wheel arch distance that I would have if putting a lift kit in. Plain and simple but anyway ................ thanks everyone for their input whether it correct or not, I appreciate it.


https://media.giphy.com/media/KL7I5MXrcvezC/giphy.gif

[Gwagensteve]

Correct! You’ve understood the issue, then amongst that, you’ve missed the point.

The bigger tyres you fitted to the kingswood didn’t clear the guards when the suspension was in motion. This was true both before and after you lowered it, it’s just that after lowering it you noticed much more. If you put standard tyres back on it they wouldn’t have rubbed in the guards regardless of how low set the rest point of the suspension.

This is exactly what we’re saying.

Moving the rest point of the suspension doesn’t change the tyre size that fits. Your kingswood example is the proof of this.

Just beucase rubbibg happens less doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist unless you do something to physically prevent it. Changing the rest point of the suspension doesn’t prevent rubbing.

[GrandVitarasRock]

Gwagensteve wrote:

Changing the rest point of the suspension doesn’t prevent rubbing.

- I agree 100% at resting point it won't do anything for rubbing - obviously however you can still fit larger diameter tyres at resting point and it will increase the distance from the top of the tread to the arch of the guard - you would agree with this surely ......

This is what I meant originally.

See attached image -
bottom picture ... big tyres no lift
top picture - big tyres with lift

The bottom picture is how the old Holden looked ( almost ) and I didn't want the Vitara like that. I can live with some rubbing on the under side of guards if heavily articulated however that wouldn't be that often anyway. 70% of the time is on road. I really was just aiming to increase most of all the under side clearance so the exhaust and cross member aren't rubbing the ground every time we're off road.

It's all good folks - I'll put one on the spare and give it a go.

Thank you

[atari4x4]

[Gwagensteve]

We all understood what you meant originally. It’s what Facebook experts tell people to think and it’s a falsehood. The tyre that fits stationary on flat ground isn’t relevant because the suspension moves when the car is driven.

I can put 34” tyres on a stock Sierra, stationary on flat ground. That doesn’t mean they “fit”.

It doesn’t matter how you intend to use the car- you don’t get to choose how much the suspension flexes. It does what it does. It doesn’t matter if the tyres “fit” 70% of the time if the other 30% they’re ripping the inner guards out or getting sliced by a body seam or jamming on the firewall.

You have received nothing but accurate, proven and considered advice in this thread.
I’ll be interested to see how you go with your planned tyre size. Remember to fully articulate the car at full lock in both directions to confirm actual clearances. You’ll need to reverse the car up an obstacle to get the front to full compression, as it’s very hard to achieve with the car stationary.

[Gwagensteve]

Your picture shows me the same car, one at full droop and one at full compression. That’s our point. Where the suspension rests between those limits isn’t relevant.

[GrandVitarasRock]

Gwagensteve wrote:

Where the suspension rests between those limits isn’t relevant.

That picture was used to show what I meant by fitting larger tyres on without a suspension lift !! and the raised suspension lifting showing clearance under the guards !!

I know that articulation plays into it however, there is still to a certain degree, truth in the fact that without any suspension lift, larger tyres are going to be harder to fit under the guards than with a lift.......

I'm not planning on using this vehicle as an off road animal needing the flex of a giraffe......

and as far as the "It’s what Facebook experts tell people to think" - I take it with a grain of salt what I see so called facebook experts doing .... same as how you can't believe it true simply because it's on the internet....

I'm talking about the likes of Shaun Whale, Graham Cahill, Rocket Rod - people that use and abuse the SH*T out of their vehicles.....all recommend lift kits, suspension experts that don't even necassarily sell suspension but fit it.........a lift kit seems to be the first mod most people do on their 4x4's to make them handle off road better.


All good though folks........I take on board everything you've said. Thank you

[Technotron101]

We're not trying to talk you out of a lift... Most of what you said up there about lifts helping off-road, yes that's pretty well the case (with some exceptions here and there of course).

The only thing that is blatantly incorrect is that you keep saying that tyres are easier to fit with a lift. It doesn't matter how much flex you're trying to achieve... If your tyre doesn't fit at stock height, and you fit say a 40mm lift to clear it... All you have to do is drive over a pebble that compresses the suspension 40mm and you're back to square one... This is what we're saying. You don't need to be chasing extensive articulation to reach a point where the tyre has the same clearance as stock, and therefore rubs.

No one here is saying lifts are bad, or don't help off-road, only that in light of fitting tyres, (suspension) lift has no part to play.

[greenzook89]

GrandVitarasRock wrote:

I'm talking about the likes of Shaun Whale, Graham Cahill, Rocket Rod - people that use and abuse the SH*T out of their vehicles.....

Yeah I'd be taking anything those guys said with a pinch of salt.

[atari4x4]

greenzook89 wrote:

GrandVitarasRock wrote:

I'm talking about the likes of Shaun Whale, Graham Cahill, Rocket Rod - people that use and abuse the SH*T out of their vehicles.....

Yeah I'd be taking anything those guys said with a pinch of salt.

{FACT}

This paid program is bought to you by, whatever their cheap winches are called this month, kings awnings & environmental vandalism.

[Gwagensteve]

No, there is no truth at all that big tyres are easier to fit with a suspension lift. A suspension lift might restore adequate suspension travel after the bumpstops are spaced to fit bigger tyres, but it’s not the lift that’s fitting the tyres.

We need to clear something up. Tyres either fit or they don’t. A tyre that fits means it’s not touching the car at any point in wheel travel or steering lock. That’s black or white. What “not fitting” looks like can be many different things from light tyre to plastic clearance to a car that’s impossible to drive. They’re all flavours of not fitting. And a tyre can’t legally touch anything except the road. It doesn’t matter if it’s infrequent or whatever.

Let’s clear something else up. You can’t choose how much you flex your car up. Dynamic forces will sort that out for you. If you’ve chosen tyres that doesn’t fit at the extents of lock or travel, you will know.

As for some blokes who get paid to sell aftermarket accessories telling you you need an aftermarket accessory- you can pay as much attention to them as that fact warrants,

I note with interest thought you’ve now swung the conversation from “a lift kit fits bigger tyres” to “people recommend lift kits and they make the car handle better” - that may be true. Many 4wd’s benefit from an increase in shock rate and some benefit from an increase in spring rate, especially when driving off road heavily laden. That has nothing to do with fitting bigger tyres. Nothing at all. Also, be careful that lift kit and suspension kit aren’t interchangeable. Lift kits are often cosmetic nonsense. A suspension kit might (or might not) provide lift to improve the handling by increasing compression travel, at the expense of droop travel, but also by better suiting the spring and shock rates to the use the car is put to.

Few cars handle better when lifted. The only exception is the early vitara, due to huge problems with its suspension design.

[GrandVitarasRock]

Technotron101 wrote:

The only thing that is blatantly incorrect is that you keep saying that tyres are easier to fit with a lift. It doesn't matter how much flex you're trying to achieve... If your tyre doesn't fit at stock height, and you fit say a 40mm lift to clear it... All you have to do is drive over a pebble that compresses the suspension 40mm and you're back to square one... You don't need to be chasing extensive articulation to reach a point where the tyre has the same clearance as stock, and therefore rubs.

I get what you're saying there and I appreciate how you've written it helping to explain it better terminology than some other explanations on here. And for the record in no way at all did I mean that a stock Vitara wheel arch with 16 inch wheels can suddenly house 40 inch Trep's on 17 inch x 10 inch wide bead lock rims purely because of a 2 inch lift kit .
Nor did I mean that by fitting a 2 inch lift suddenly allows for 14 inch wide drag car tyres to "fit" without scrubbing or rubbing anywhere.

The car is used 70% of the time on road - ie " smooth tarmac and the occasional camping off road trips. I know that depending on how hard core one may chose to drive off road can determine how much flex your're intending to put the car through ( not saying the driver can control the physical articulation travel other than by the rut or line you chose to drive to a degree ) HOWEVER for a vehicle that sticks mostly to flat smooth road, sitting 2 inches higher would no doubt "house" the tyre easier than without the lift - you would have to agree on that.

I wouldn't expect any more rubbing anywhere fitting a 235/80/r16 ( overall diameter 782mm ) than fitting a 245/75/16 ( overall diameter 774mm ) as it's 10mm narrower too.

I'll fit up the spare and see how we go.

And yes I don't talk too much of what Shaunno, Graham and the like "recommend" because after all they do seem to only use and endorse products that come from the EMG owned 4WD Supacentre ..... however I've seen countless hours of flexing 4x4's and just about every person driving these have all commented on their lift kits.

Cheers guys

[Technotron101]

I can see you're finally starting to come around, and I think we're slowly getting to be on the same page. Which is awesome!

I can see your point of view, where if the tyre only just rubs standard, lifting would help reduce the likelihood or at least the frequency of it rubbing. While that is of course true, whether you intend to or otherwise (like you said) you will still end up with the tyre in a position that rubs - lift or no lift. While lifts may help fitting a tyre into the wheel well at resting height (like you say), the actual fitting of the tyre isn't changed by the lift kit. It will still reach into places in the wheelarch it could before, and it will still rub just as much as it would before the lift as soon as the suspension moves (like over a speed bump in the supermarket carpark, or up the driveway at your house, or offroad in a cross axle situation). The fact of the matter is that while visually it would appear that there is "more room" for the tyre to fit, in actuality the lift hasn't changed the ability to functionally fit the tyre. This is fundamentally what everyone is trying to explain, and I can see that you do somewhat understand that. The only thing I think you're getting caught up on is that it shouldn't matter, because you'll never end up flexing it to a position that it would rub, so it'll be fine. Just be mindful that a tyre shouldn't touch anywhere, and a lift WON'T change that.

However, I can see you've almost got it, and by all means chuck the spare on and see how it goes. You may find that the tyre ends up fitting fine - lift or no lift. I feel like (and I'm guilty as charged here) we've all jumped at the chance to make sure the theory of lifts is correctly understood (absolutely worth doing) but in doing so, somewhat skimmed over the original question (which as I remember was if the new tyre would fit). So just chuck the wheel and tyre on, and hopefully at the very least we'll all have a reference for the future as to whether that size tyre fits on your car.

[Gwagensteve]

Your description of “housing the tyre” is purely cosmetic and has nothing to do with clearance or function.

Whether the 235/80’s will be easier to fit will depend on where the contact point is. In the front less width can assist, but more diameter is what it is- especially in an independent suspension where the tyre stays pretty vertical to the body as it articulates.

The whole 4wd industry rides on the back of the myth that suspension kits do more than they actually do. Most actually have less wheel travel than the standard suspension. Reputable suppliers don’t quote lift heights and instead focus on correct shock valving and keeping lift below the point the car is negatively impacted. 4wding is the only past time where making something look hard is considered cool. 3WD Craption taps right into that with its driving too fast, wheel lifting nonsense. With cars undertyred, overloaded, undergeared making easy tracks look hard. I don’t buy into the idea that’s what 4wding is- it’s embarrassing.

[GrandVitarasRock]

Gwagensteve wrote:

3WD Craption taps right into that with its driving too fast, wheel lifting nonsense. With cars undertyred, overloaded, undergeared making easy tracks look hard. I don’t buy into the idea that’s what 4wding is- it’s embarrassing.

In fairness to them, I've driving some of the tracks they've done and they are pretty full on but I get what you're saying.

Cheers

[Gwagensteve]

Evidence of my point is when they built a Sierra they made sure it wasn’t built well enough to show up their big cars- don’t want to mess with narrative you need a big car with lots of their accessories on it to get the job done.

[ZUZUKI]

I've been away with them - they don't do themselves or their trucks any favors.
The biggest problems they have are:
A) Too many trips & not enough time in between to properly keep on top of the maintenance required when a vehicle gets used hard.
B) Being beholden to 'sponsors' to showcase various products - they have to drag silly camper trailers into places that no sane 4wdriver who owned one would take it - because their boss tells them to, because they got paid lots of money to do so.
C) Rightly of wrongly (mostly wrongly) splashing though a puddle at twice the speed that is necessary looks 'better' / more impressive on a video - to their readership, and unfortunately, that readership obviously likes that sort of stuff, because they quickly rose to be the dominate magazine (with free DVD) in the 4WD marketplace.
D) They genuinely do drive some hard tracks, but usually pick the hardest lines, which because of A, B & C above, means they regularly break stuff & like Gwagen notes, make tracks look harder than they need to be.
It may look like a dream job, but at the pace they do it, for 10+ years, I'm not sure I'd be enjoying it by now.
Rgs, Michael

[GrandVitarasRock]

ZUZUKI wrote:

B) Being beholden to 'sponsors' to showcase various products - they have to drag silly camper trailers into places that no sane 4wdriver who owned one would take it - because their boss tells them to, because they got paid lots of money to do so.

That's how they pay for their constant away trips....the likes of Skamper Campers, Mars trailers etc cover all costs of the trip in return for their subliminal advert for how great a trailer it is or how fantastic the Cooper STTT tyres are, ( until General Tyre or BF Goodrich tyres pay more ), Tough Dog suspension ( until OME or Dobinson pay more ) etc...

I know a guy who gave a gift to one of the presenters on 4WD Action and when asked to simply mention the item ( not even who supplied it or the brand or anything ) - just mention how good this item was compared to what he had - he was told they can't because of other paying advertisers ( none of which even supply anything like this item ). .....

I really wonder, every time I watch an episode, did the 4WD Action mob pay for that Isuzu D-Max Graham is constantly raving about both outright and subliminally or were they given this in a quiet closed door meeting with Isuzu Australia ? He does not stop raving about it, like no other vehicle he drives.......

Anyway I guess that's how they make their money.

[fordem]

You know of all of the above and yet you consider their advice as "expert advice" ...

[GrandVitarasRock]

fordem wrote:

You know of all of the above and yet you consider their advice as "expert advice" ...

well you've got to keep an open mind ...

[Gwagensteve]