[privatepablo]

Does anyone on here know if there are any performance camshafts available for the M13A jimny and also if they are worth installing? What would be the advantages and what problems would come up?

[Gwagensteve]

Some googling found cams for both VVT and non VVT M13's, to suit a swift. I'm unsure if the jimny and swift use exactly the same camshaft position sensor, if they do, then there's no reason you couldn't use a swift performance cam in a Jimny. However, they are listing at 900 to 1600 Euro

However, what do you want the performance cam to do? Most will move the power band upwards in the rev range, at the expense of low end torque. I'm not sure if that's what a Jimny really needs. On top of that, there's no guarantee the stock computer will properly deal with the changed engine characteristics.

All up, I's suggest without spending tonnes of money on labour, tuning etc, there's going to be very little benefit. There might be little benefit at all.

However, fitting a larger M motor is cost effective and provides increased torque, which is exactly what the Jimny needs.

Steve.

[31zook]

My G13A on the dyno had all the power between 1-4000rpm. The dyno sheet shows that exactly after 4250rpm it significantly dropped off of making power. I remember it only costing about $130 to get it ground in QLD.

^as steve said the computer might not like it.

[Gwagensteve]

I reckon M13's breathe a bit better than a G13A up high, but nonetheless, being a DOHC the M13 has two cams and potentially would require work on the VVT phasing.

All up a nightmare IMHO when M15's are cheap and easy to fit.

As has already been shown with extractors/exhaust, it's easy to throw things at an M motor and end up making [i]lessi\i] power than standard.

Steve.

[privatepablo]

So what would I need to do to fit a M15 or M18 in my Jimny? I'm guessing the computer that comes with that engine would be the most important for the switch. I've seen a few threads on the forum where it seems people have interchanged parts from the M18 and put them into the M13 and therefore getting more power and a larger capacity engine. However wouldn't just taking the whole M13 out and putting the M15 or M18 in be a easier solution?

[Gwagensteve]

Pretty sure everything you need to know is right here:

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=30308

Steve.

[droverdave]

For $130 for the cam id give it a go. That's about the same price I was quoted for a g13a camshaft.

Does the m13a have an airflow meter or map sensor for air metering?

[Gwagensteve]

Woah there Drover - that's a hefty conclusion you've jumped to there.

$130 for a regrind on a G13 is one thing, there's no correlation that an M13 (VVT?) cam can also be reground for the same money with a known profile that's effective, (and in any case it's 2X $130 as it's a DOHC motor.

M13's are MAP only.

Also, unless the OP is pretty mechanically minded, he's going to be paying a shop for remove and refit the cams, in itself likely to be quite expensive. If you included a bit of dyno time to prove whether the cams had done anything, I reckon it's line ball with a bigger M motor transplant.

All up, a lot of coin to drop on something that mightn't offer any improvement (or worse - makes the car run poorly)

[droverdave]

31zook is the one who said it was $130, not me.

There is the email address for the OP to email to get an actual price.

Malcolm Pettett
Camtech Cams
(02) 9755 3101
malcolm@camtechcams.com.au

I mentioned my experience as the OP was asking about approximate cost....which i gave him.

All i said was, for $130 and a few hrs of MY OWN TIME, i would be willing to give it a go. OP said nothing about installation costs.

As for performance increase i can only speculate, but in my experience mild cams really open up the higher revs with a smallish detrement to lower revs, is that better for 4wding, maybe not, but i think id be willing to at least try it.

[Gwagensteve]

I was only pointing out that a $130 regrind for a 25 year old SOHC carby motor is a long way from a $260 regrind of two cams on a DOHC 16V motor, with a whole host of potential tuning and installation problems.

Saying "for $130 I'd give it a go" is 100% true for a G13A. It's not accurate at all for an M13.

Steve.

[royce]

droverdave wrote:

31zook is the one who said it was $130, not me.

There is the email address for the OP to email to get an actual price.

Malcolm Pettett
Camtech Cams
(02) 9755 3101
malcolm@camtechcams.com.au

I mentioned my experience as the OP was asking about approximate cost....which i gave him.

All i said was, for $130 and a few hrs of MY OWN TIME, i would be willing to give it a go. OP said nothing about installation costs.

As for performance increase i can only speculate, but in my experience mild cams really open up the higher revs with a smallish detrement to lower revs, is that better for 4wding, maybe not, but i think id be willing to at least try it.

You are the one that read a post wrong and dumped an opinion into a thread looking for real answers, again.
Do you understand what Variable Valve Timing does? have you driven an engine with it? I doubt a cam would make bugger all difference, the VVT takes care of the rev range problem.

Wouldn't be surprised if you cant fit a regrind to an M series, how are you going to deal with the bucket and shim follower adjustment? even if you could get fat enough shims it and the tool to change them will blow the budget,

[droverdave]

I know how VVT works, it doesn't increase the lift of the valve.

[privatepablo]

Right so ill stay clear of performance camshafts. And go for a engine swap to a m15 or something similar. Also ive read alot about people putting the on v6 grand vitara engine in the jimny, however ive heard nothing with putting the new gv engine in the jimny. Whats the go with that?

[KEENSY85]

Call camtech and at least check it out

[Gwagensteve]

You've read a LOT about it being done? As in, it's been done frequently? Golly, I was only aware of Joeblow's car, and geez, that looks like a ton of work. It's definitely one of those "because i can" projects, not necessarily what you'd advise someone to do.

When you say "new GV engine", which one do you mean? J24, Diesel? Alloytec V6? In any case, the reason you haven't heard of it is that There's relatively few new GV's available from wreckers, so there's a limited source of donor motors and the price is high. That'd be the #1 reason.

Beyond that, there will be a whole host of fitment and engine management issues to deal with. The best candidate would be the J24, as at least it's similar to the J20 which we know can be transplanted into Sierras.

However, you'd have to ask what the point would be. An M18 makes plenty of power, effectively bolts in, and looks perfectly standard. Any NGV motor is going to be many times more complex and costly, and if its substantially more torquey than an M18, it's really only going to destroy the driveline of the car. Engine conversions need to be balanced - as in, the whole driveline of the car needs to be able to deal with the motor.

Steve.

[KEENSY85]

Personaly it would be cool to know how much it would cost to give the m13 a more aggressive cam setup....I disagree with Gwagensteve about fitting an m15 , , because iv been told by someone who has done it , that they seem to not really notice the difference in power output wich I thought rather strange.

But really like the idea of the m18 idea Gwagensteve In my mind I could see that being a awesome worth while conversion

[Gwagensteve]

Mud_muncher on here went to an M15 from memory and he reckoned the increase in torque was very noticeable.

I sid the same thing - surely it's not worth the small increase in capacity, but he was adamant the torque increase was very noticeable.

If you are that keen on the idea of cams for an M13, get onto the swift sites and have a deeper search - I'm sure it's been done, but probably in Japan. You should be able to uncover what was gained. I did wonder whether the M15 etc run more aggressive cams than the M13, so there might be a swap (or complete head swap) option locally too, but by the time you're swapping heads/cams from a whole engine you could have just bolted in complete, it kind of seems a bit silly, no? in increase in top end might be fun, but it's never going to match the overall torque curve of a larger capacity motor.

Steve.

[KEENSY85]

Na I agree I might check out the swift site

[Jezza86]

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product ... 51889.html

i have no idea what this is but i want to know if it can be a option. lot of money to fork out though.

[Gwagensteve]

Isn't it just a M18 short motor?

Steve.

[Jezza86]

yes, but the measurements on the site suggest the bore is that of a m16 not a m18 which makes me nervous.
its like they figured the stroke is the same so it will be fine even though the m18 has a larger diameter bore.

[Gwagensteve]

well, the ad does specify the block is 1600cc.

Steve.

[privatepablo]

With the GV engine I mean the new ones, either the J24B or the F9Q which is the diesel. And i don't think I've read much about the V6 GV swap into the Jimny on this forum but I'm pretty certain I have heard of people doing it a bit. Weather its a good idea or not or if its worth while is a completely different topic. Hence why I am asking for advice here seeing as the majority and if not all of you have more idea than I do or what can and cannot be done with a Jimny.

[Gwagensteve]

I'll play. THIS is why you don't read about it being done.

In theory, almost anything can be done, but it really comes down to the relationship between cost and return.

If you read the M series swap thread, you'll notice that there's quite a lot of angst associated with trying to swap in the M18 ECU into the Jimny. It's certainly not a plug-and-play, even though the motor is effectively identical to the M13 from a sensor/architecture point of view.

Swapping to a completely different series of motor, and one from a late model vehicle, is likely to be an enormous hassle. (even the petrol) In the case of modern cars, the problem isn't physically fitting the motor (although I'm sure that's not all that easy in the case of the J24 - they are quite a large motor by 4 cylinder standards) its going to be all in the electronics. Getting all the instruments to work and read properly, ensuring the car doesn't throw error codes, the immobiliser doesn't cause you grief, the air-conditioning works properly - these are all areas where the existing Jimny architecture has to interface with the new engine control. In the instance of, say, a G16B or M18 into a Jimny, this is now a well trodden path. In the case of a J24 or F9Q, it's not well trodden at all, so you have to troubleshoot it all yourself (or pay someone to do it for you) There's plenty of engine conversions out there that do flaky things, like the tacho doesn't work you need a different key for the ignition to the doors etc. In a new Jimny with a new motor, most people won't consider that acceptable - they want it to drive and behave in line with standard parameters (just with more performance) That costs time and money. The less common the swap, the more time and money it takes.

The newer a car gets, the more expensive it is, even wrecked from the auctions. In the case of a NGV swap into a Jimny, you're going to want the whole car to use as a donor, as there's going to be heaps of parts you need beyond the engine alone. So, you need to find a lightly damaged car, not something that's hit a power pole, is burnt or has been flooded. That limits the possibilities to the most expensive wrecks (and very limited availability)

Next, you need to carefully assess whether the finished conversion is really going to make the car better. Whilst an M15, 16 or 18 might be something you could have imagined suzuki building themselves (although the power and torque of an M18 is probably pushing this idea) 122Kw/Nm of J24B is definitely way, way beyond the headroom suzuki have designed into the Jimny. The first issue that raises is engineer approval. An engineer will need to certify the car is safe with twice the power it was designed for. That is most likely going to entail braking upgradesm which might be quite expensive to achieve, especially if the Jimny concerned has ABS. Both the J24 and definitely the F9Q will be much heavier than the M13 that was removed. That is going to reduce your payload and test the maximum permitted front axle weight, especially if you want to add a bar and winch, for example. Also consider the J24 and F9Q motors don't have to clear a live front axle in their donor environment. An NGV sump is unlikely to clear the Jimny axle, and there's no off-the-shelf bolt in sump. Sump and oil pickup mods aren't all that hard if you are patient and can weld and fabricate, (so long as the sump and pickup are readily weldable) but what if you have to pay someone? It all adds up and it's all untrodden ground.

The Jimny gearbox and transfer case won't live with twice their rated torque running through them. You'll need to use the donor gearbox from the NGV, and possibly the transfer case (which will require a custom made rear axle due to the offset) There are also off road gearing issues to consider. Regardless of the power and torque of the donor engine, a Jimny is still not really properly geared for off road work. To achieve that, you have to resolve a transfer case that will last behind the increased torque, but also gear the car correctly on road.

All up, a J24 conversion might cost upwards of $10K to be properly finished and legal. A F9Q might cost 30% more than this, as more fuel system, cooling (intercooler) and gearing issues need to be overcome, mostly because you need to buy a whole lightly damaged car, and/or a heap of expensive parts.

If the thought of dropping $10-13K on an engine conversion doesn't scare you, the fact it might result in poor driveline reliability should, because it's rarely what people think about when they start on these sort of exercises.

Just isolating the front diff for a moment, here's an example of why the cost and problems can get out of control. the jimmy front axle twists and bends standard. Add a heavier motor and it's going to twist and bend more. The front CV's are weak (even with a standard motor) and there are effectively no other diff ratios available for the front end (that are easy to source, like from a wreck or donor car) So, to try and get the front axle to live, you can add upgraded axles (circa $800) manual hubs ($150 with a fitting kit?) you'll need a HD panhard rod because the stock one bends easily, and you're leaning on it with more power and more weight ($300) You'll need to pull the brakes off of some later GV or similar with equivalent power, and probably match the master cylinder. The hub offset is different, so custom adapters will likely need to me made for the callipers, and you might need to purchase something like SV620 rotors. (but I have no idea if you also need to deal with ABS tone rings)

Now you have beefed everything except the front ring and pinion, which also wasn't designed for 200 (let alone 300Nm) There isn't really an easy workaround for that, because the front diff is a high pinion design and to swap that to a low pinion design to match the rear (or something like a Vitara rear) means lots of custom steering and suspension work. Ouch.

How many $$$ is that, just on the front axle, to overcome the increase in torque and weight of a J24 or F9Q swap?

Starting to see why everyone just bolts on G16B's or M series motors, whig go straight in the hole and don't overtax the Jimny running gear?

It might not be all that bad - it might be able to be done much cheaper, or the front axle might take the power if you are gentle and don't off road too much, but that's a risk that's unknown. Putting silly drivetrain combinations into cars is a lot of fun, but it's always harder and more expensive than you're going to estimate it is. Probably by a large factor. It might not even be possible to surmount some the electrical issues.

Steve.

[jimny_timmy]

Steve, you should become an author! I honestly can't see why you would go to all the trouble to fit the gv engine, when like Steve said, the M series etc conversions can be done, and if that is enough powwa for you... There's supercharger kits available (m-series anyway) that will be a trillion times less work, and still munch cvs and uni joints at the lights like you gv engine will.

The GV engine would be cool if your the first guy to do it for a bit of "wank factor" (no offense intended Joe). But it's been done, and done well at that. I'm sure Joe would agree that the trouble he went to to do that conversion, far outweighed the feesability.

Just my 2 cents worth

[losfer]

what steve said and the j24 and the f9Q are such shit unreliable engines currently on this planet