[86 Drover]

Hey guys. I'm currently negotiating with someone about buying and rear lockrite autolocker for my 1986 holden drover. I'd like to hear form someone that has ran one in their car. I've heard they can strip diff splines and snap axels. Also people talk about having to adjust their driving style on the road cause they can lock up unexpectedly whilst driving. Cheers

[fordem]

First - despite the name, they are not auto lockers, they are auto unlockers - they will lock until such time as one wheel turns faster (the outer one in the turn) at which time they unlock and allow that wheel to "over run" - if you are on the throttle, they may not unlock immediately and if that happens, when they do unlock, it will typically be quite sudden, noisy, & yes, unpredictable.

Stripping splines and breaking axles are both possibilities - think about it - you could be applying as much as 300% torque, if only that one wheel has traction - sounds impossible - instead of each wheel getting 25% of the engine's output (ideal conditions), if only one wheel has traction, with no locker you go nowhere, with a locker, all the torque could be sent to the one wheel with traction.

[jdk81]

I drove with an auto locker for 70 thou kms with tyres 26", 31", and 33".
Wheeled on 33s, daily on stockies, then put 31s on and stopped changing tyres.
I sold the rear diff and the next owner drove it about 30 thou kms till the diff failed.

I had one spline twist, other twisted before being locked.
I drove it pretty hard on 31s, nursed it on 33s.

The driving style and behaviour was fine/tolerable for me. Yes it sucked, but was worth it.
The extra driveline backlash is super hard on diff gears, driveshaft splines, and the transfer and gearbox.

I have front and rear auto lockers in my rig and im swapping the rear for a mini spool, as Im sick of the slappy backlash sound when in OD. It was tolerable in a manual

Autolockers come with extra maintenance and failures etc long term, not sure how cost effective they are if you do a good deal of wheeling and daily driving.

A front auto locker isnt hugely impressive either.

I'd get airlockers for a daily.

Edit: yes auto locker are auto unlockers
Touching on max torque
1st gear 3.652, hi 1.409 and low between 2.268 to 6.5
in high range its able to load It 5.1 x engine torque
Low ranges 8.3 to 23.7x engine torque.

being harsh and getting traction will break shit

[sideways]

Although I don't really like my autolocker and I have bought an airlocker to replace it, I think the effects on drivability are way overplayed. Aside from the extra play in the diff, above car park speeds you absolutely cannot tell mine is there. It's not unpredictable because there's nothing to predict. If a lockrite is being unpredictable it's set up wrong. Bench test it before you put it in, if it's stiff then get thinner shims.

I just hate the driveline play, it makes it shit to drive and is hard on mechanicals. If you've got the money then get an air locker IMO. There are Chinese ARB copies if you want cheap or you can wait around for Joes CAP lockers to become available.

Get a lockrite over a spartan if you are going auto.

[fordem]

Let's see if I understand you - you don't like your autolocker because it makes it shit to drive and is hard on mechanicals, but in your mind that's not an "effect on drivability"? You dislike the autolocker enough that you bought an airlocker, and you still think that the effects on drivability are way overplayed?

Whilst I'm about it, what extra play in the diff? What diff? You took it out when you installed the auto locker. There's no differential, there is nothing in there to differentiate - if we assume that the crown wheel & pinion were set up correctly, there will be no extra play there, so what you are actually describing can only be play in the locker itself.

You give new meaning to the concept of putting your money where your mouth is - you already put the money...

[fergy]

subscribed

[sideways]

fordem wrote:

you don't like your autolocker because it makes it shit to drive and is hard on mechanicals, but in your mind that's not an "effect on drivability"?

Yeah if you actually read my post, that's exactly what I didn't say.

What I meant by "the effects on drivability are way overplayed" is it doesn't lurch in corners, it doesn't suddenly lock up and spear you off the road killing babys ect ect. Those are opinions you often see from people who haven't experienced a well setup autolocker or more often, no experience with auto lockers at all.

fordem wrote:

Whilst I'm about it, what extra play in the diff? What diff? You took it out when you installed the auto locker. There's no differential, there is nothing in there to differentiate - if we assume that the crown wheel & pinion were set up correctly, there will be no extra play there, so what you are actually describing can only be play in the locker itself.

Well done mister technicality, you and everyone else on this forum knew what I meant.

fordem wrote:

You give new meaning to the concept of putting your money where your mouth is - you already put the money...

Which is exactly why I said.

sideways wrote:

If you've got the money then get an air locker IMO.

[Gwagensteve]

I drove a LWB sierra running a lockrite that DEFINITELY lurched in corners - specifically, long constant radius bends required constant steering corrections due to the locker locking and unlocking as the two dogs moved past each other.

In the front of a sierra offroad, in my opinion, they suck. Very heavy steering on steep decents, and poor turning circle in mud due to the locker not seeing enough torque from the overspeeding wheel to unlock were the problems I've seen/experienced.

Not a fan.

My own car is minispool rear/airlocker front and has been for years.
I've also run welded rear only when I had 1.0 axles.

[fordem]

sideways wrote:

What I meant by "the effects on drivability are way overplayed" is it doesn't lurch in corners, it doesn't suddenly lock up and spear you off the road killing babys ect ect. Those are opinions you often see from people who haven't experienced a well setup autolocker or more often, no experience with auto lockers at all.

There's only one reason an auto locker doesn't suddenly lock up in mid turn and that's because it's NOT an auto locker, it's an auto unlocker, it's locked when you go into the turn and unlocks in mid turn, if it worked the other way around, you'd probably hear a lot more negative comments about them.

Take a look at Gwagensteve's post - the big difference between what he reports and what you report results from one thing - you're most likely going through a turn that is short enough that you have the option of backing off the throttle and allowing the vehicle to coast through - because he is in a long turn he has no option but to stay on the throttle, and that, like I said, is when the auto unlockers become unpredictable - unpredictable because when they will unlock will change depending on how much power you have on, how much traction you have, and the radius of the turn.

You were specific about not being able to tell that your autolocker was there "above car park speeds" - would those be the car parks where you have tight turns and ramps between floors? Where you don't have the option of allowing the vehicle to coast, you have to get on the throttle to get the vehicle up the ramp?

[sideways]

fordem wrote:

sideways wrote:

What I meant by "the effects on drivability are way overplayed" is it doesn't lurch in corners, it doesn't suddenly lock up and spear you off the road killing babys ect ect. Those are opinions you often see from people who haven't experienced a well setup autolocker or more often, no experience with auto lockers at all.

There's only one reason an auto locker doesn't suddenly lock up in mid turn and that's because it's NOT an auto locker, it's an auto unlocker, it's locked when you go into the turn and unlocks in mid turn, if it worked the other way around, you'd probably hear a lot more negative comments about them.

Yeah, I'm aware of how they work. Some people say when it should be/was letting a wheel over run they stop doing that (or the other way around, which is what I was thinking of when I typed that but derp), when they're poorly setup.

fordem wrote:

Take a look at Gwagensteve's post - the big difference between what he reports and what you report results from one thing - you're most likely going through a turn that is short enough that you have the option of backing off the throttle and allowing the vehicle to coast through - because he is in a long turn he has no option but to stay on the throttle, and that, like I said, is when the auto unlockers become unpredictable - unpredictable because when they will unlock will change depending on how much power you have on, how much traction you have, and the radius of the turn.

Nah, roads around here are mostly 90 or 110 winding roads with plenty of speed advisory signs. I've covered around 11'000 kms with the auto locker driving all over the south west. Steve drove a poorly setup one.

fordem wrote:

You were specific about not being able to tell that your autolocker was there "above car park speeds" - would those be the car parks where you have tight turns and ramps between floors? Where you don't have the option of allowing the vehicle to coast, you have to get on the throttle to get the vehicle up the ramp?

No, by "above car park speeds" I mean above the speeds you would travel in a car park. At slow speeds when you're coasting/very light throttle the play is really exaggerated, you can hear it click in corners and if you stand on it in a corner, sometimes it goes bang.

Any more questions? Did I cross all my ts?

[jdk81]

Oh, i'll disagree with you too sideways.
As I've posted before in various autolocker threads

Few areas of auto lockers that shit me.
For reference, I'm describing a twitch as when it unlocks and locks again and the back end kicks out a little, jerking the car

Long sweeping turns get a "twitch" when the outside wheel overruns the inner, its very slight at just the right throttle. If the throttle isnt ideal it makes the twitch bigger.
Similar twitch happens on roundabouts, both can be ridiculously scary on a wet road, especially if the long sweeping turn is on the edge of a hill etc.

Also pulling into a slip lane when coming to a stop i.e. at traffic lights etc.
As soon as you drive off, the diff locks and depending on throttle a loud crack and big twitch. If police are around, need to slowly putt away at traffic lights.

Car parks and stuff were bearable.
Often nice clicking, wrong level of throttle/clutch and the jerking/hops start.

Auto lockers proper suck, but can be worth it.

[fordem]

sideways wrote:

At slow speeds when you're coasting/very light throttle the play is really exaggerated, you can hear it click in corners and if you stand on it in a corner, sometimes it goes bang.

What you're describing is not play - that is the locker unlocking - coasting/very light throttle, there is no torque on the locker so it unlocks easily, the click is when the dogs slide over one another and re-engage, if you stand on it, there is torque applied, making it harder for the locker to unlock, and in a corner the locker needs to unlock to allow the outer wheel to over run, so that is when it goes bang.

All you're doing is defining in your own terms (or redefining to suit yourself) the characteristics of the auto unlocker that other people consider undesirable. All I have done is point out to the original poster that these characteristics can/should be expected.

[86 Drover]

[quote="sideways"][quote="fordem"] Those are opinions you often see from people who haven't experienced a well setup autolocker or more often, no experience with auto lockers at all.

How do you set up an autolocker correctly or incorrectly. What varies in the setup?

[Gwagensteve]

Shim thickness. Too tight and it takes excessive torque from the overspeeding wheel to disengage the locker. Too loose and in extreme cases the locker can actually slip (no drive)

Steve.

[Gwagensteve]

Auto lockers are also very sensitive to bent/out of true axlehousings.

[sideways]

jdk81 wrote:

Oh, i'll disagree with you too sideways.
As I've posted before in various autolocker threads

Few areas of auto lockers that shit me.
For reference, I'm describing a twitch as when it unlocks and locks again and the back end kicks out a little, jerking the car

Long sweeping turns get a "twitch" when the outside wheel overruns the inner, its very slight at just the right throttle. If the throttle isnt ideal it makes the twitch bigger.
Similar twitch happens on roundabouts, both can be ridiculously scary on a wet road, especially if the long sweeping turn is on the edge of a hill etc.

Also pulling into a slip lane when coming to a stop i.e. at traffic lights etc.
As soon as you drive off, the diff locks and depending on throttle a loud crack and big twitch. If police are around, need to slowly putt away at traffic lights.

Car parks and stuff were bearable.
Often nice clicking, wrong level of throttle/clutch and the jerking/hops start.

Auto lockers proper suck, but can be worth it.

*shrug*

Mine doesn't lurch/twitch at speed no matter what you do with the throttle. My friends 110 with a detroit doesn't either. Another friends sierra has a spartan which is a clunky mess.

It can do it at very low speeds under mild throttle, but it's fine at speed.

Mines never goes bang taking off in a straight line, as above if you turn and then plant the throttle at low speed it can go bang.

fordem wrote:

sideways wrote:

At slow speeds when you're coasting/very light throttle the play is really exaggerated, you can hear it click in corners and if you stand on it in a corner, sometimes it goes bang.

What you're describing is not play - that is the locker unlocking - coasting/very light throttle, there is no torque on the locker so it unlocks easily, the click is when the dogs slide over one another and re-engage, if you stand on it, there is torque applied, making it harder for the locker to unlock, and in a corner the locker needs to unlock to allow the outer wheel to over run, so that is when it goes bang.

All you're doing is defining in your own terms (or redefining to suit yourself) the characteristics of the auto unlocker that other people consider undesirable. All I have done is point out to the original poster that these characteristics can/should be expected.

Hey look a T I didn't cross. You know exactly what I meant and even when locked autolockers like mine do have a lot of play in them, but yes it is it unlocking.

I'm not redefining anything, you're extracting different meaning from my words just for the sake of arguing. Sounds to me like you've run out of things to pull out of context so now you're going for the more personal bits, as well as describing how an auto locker works for the 45th time.

I'm off for the weekend.

86 Drover wrote:

sideways wrote:

fordem wrote:

Those are opinions you often see from people who haven't experienced a well setup autolocker or more often, no experience with auto lockers at all.

How do you set up an autolocker correctly or incorrectly. What varies in the setup?

As steve says. You get instructions with the kit too.

[MrRocky]

My spartan is junk

[jdk81]

A lot of early adopters of spartans said they were awesome initially, do they degrade?

[christover1]

My Spartan degraded in just 2 years on the front. I have had lots more years from my lock rites, front and rear. The Spartans seemed good because of larger pins and stronger springs. Mine was a bitch to unlock, until it bedded in, then in 2nd year it started jamming open. The lock rites in mine were much smoother. Presently running lock rite with coupler up front, happily.

[mazdaspater]

I had a Lockrite with couplers in the back, it was awful. clicking, clunking, banging.
Everyone said bent housing or axles.
Put some new tires on, much better but still awful.
I swapped it for a Lockrite without couplers in the same housing with the same wheel bearings and axles when I swapped ratios and put it in the front.
Minimal clicking and carry on. I am sure I got better at driving at a low minimal throttle but the difference was enormous.

Steering changes when you are off or on the throttle on the tar. Roundabouts and wet roads are a danger. Corners and wet roads actually. Bends also.
One thousand times better offroad.

In the front you might as well have a spool as the Coupled Lockrite in my opinion. I changed from a welded front to Lockrite. Steering is just as bad. Huge turning circle in 4wd. Brings the suck.
Got auto so I have to go to neutral, change 2 to 4 or back, go back to drive. Just to negotiate a corner. It would be less hassle in a manual but it pisses me off.
Air locker is next major thing on the cards. Nothing shits me more than this about my Sierra.