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Vehicle: 1993 sj70 soft top

Post Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2022 2:37 pm 
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I am about to build a new winch bar for my 93 sj70. if anyone has read my build thread they will have seen that my old bar is not up to scratch in terms of recovery safety or winch compatibility. I want some opinions on whether the design is strong enough to mount a winch, and on whether the mounts are suitable and in the rights spots. the following screenshots are of the design of my bar, and to try and keep things simple I have colour coded it
Yellow - chassis / crossmember
green - bar mounts
grey - structural crossmembers on the bar and the winch plate
red - non structural components of the bar
Blue - RUF chassis extension

steel thicknesses:
the structural crossmembers and mounts are all 7mm steel.
the winch plate is 10mm steel.
the rest of the plate is all 3mm steel, it is possible to go 2mm seeing that it is non structural.
the tube is 32nb - matches with my rocksliders
RUF extension is 10mm steel
please note - there is intentionally no spring hangers on the RUF chassis extension, I have designed the bar and extension in a way that will allow me to experiment with spring hanger location and shackle angle without interfering with either the bar or the extension

the screenshots are below, criticise away

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Post Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2022 7:16 pm 
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Nice work going to the effort of designing and sketching something out before starting the build. I should do that more often too.

A few quick points that come to mind:

The winch is going to sit quite high. The lower valance under grill is going to have to be cut into two pieces to fit the winch, and you'll be cutting into the plastic grill as well. It's more leverage on the chassis, and with a full size winch, flow to the radiator isn't going to be great - this is one thing about my install too, the lower portion of the radiator is pretty restricted now, and it's only going to be worse in your case.

I don't see the need for the two pieces overlapped where the winch mounts. A piece of 7mm plate doesn't need another 10mm plate on top of it - I'd just make the lower piece wide enough to fit the winch and do away with the 10mm plate.

On the topic of thickness, 10mm is titanic spec, and 7mm is also way overkill IMO. Remember your bolting to a 2.5mm chassis rails. 3-4mm is as much as it needs to be for the winch section, as long as it's doubled up where necessary (around the winch mount bolts) and has some folds/gussets where appropriate (like a vertical plate 90 degrees on the back of the winch plate for example, to stop it wanting to flex in the middle)

I'm generally not really a fan of tube style bars, as the look isn't really my thing and everything is very "open" (just my opinion, nothing against tube bars, or people that like them) But one of the other issues is where to mount things. Where are you going to put your indicator/parker lights? You could go below the tube or something, but I think you'll find you'll smash them clean off pretty quickly, as there's nothing protecting them.

I'm not really sold on the RUF extension. The bar design allows it to be done in the more traditional way (welding box section to the end of the chassis to extend it) so I would go that route I think. It means you could add some more mount holes on the end of the chassis too and it would look more "factory".

How are the two green mounts around the crossmember going to be secured?

I would try and tie more pieces into each other as well - there's lots of gaps. that lower front plate (with heaps of holes in it) could tie into the bottom grey crossmember for example, instead of being separate, as well as the two side chassis mounts. Same with the top winch plate, cut it to the shape of the front fairlead plate instead of having gaps in the corners. I know you said the red pieces aren't structural, but you could make them structural - the more you can tie everything together with different angles and planes, the stiffer and stronger it will be.

I can't see the outer tubes taking much of a hit either. That's a long lever connected to a small 3mm piece of plate at the far end. it's going to bend straight into the body if it takes an upwards/backwards hit. I'd be adding at least a gusset down to the chassis mount or something to help it out a little.

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Post Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2022 11:42 pm 
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Beery wrote:
I can't see the outer tubes taking much of a hit either. That's a long lever connected to a small 3mm piece of plate at the far end. it's going to bend straight into the body if it takes an upwards/backwards hit. I'd be adding at least a gusset down to the chassis mount or something to help it out a little.


This is what jumped out at me - the "wing tubes" are cantilevered and will bend with very little force.

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Post Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 12:29 pm 
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Great work taking the time to design something before you start. and good work colour coding things and then describing them - it makes it very easy to discuss.

There's a few design themes going on here I need to discuss.

Less parts are better than more (also if it's not structural it's cosmetic- I'll get to that)
Plate isn't strong on it's long side, it's strong on edge (and corners are your friend)
Design to put welds into the lowest stress possible.
Only use thick material when there no other option, because otherwise it's just adding weight and fabrication complexity for no reason (i.e 7 and 10mm plate is a pain to work with and weld)

I'll discuss each theme separately. I'll out the RUF aside for now, that's a whole different can of worms.

Less parts are better than more:

Have a look at your parts and see which ones are doing very little (or nothing at all)
The red "non structural" parts should be very structural. They should be providing the bar with most of its strength. In the case of an ARB bar, for example, those parts provide the bar with ALL of its strength, as the winch is mounted feet forwards. In an ARB bar they're typically only 3mm thick.

Have a look at the outside top mounts on your design. You have a 7mm thick green tab that's only picking up one bolt, it then is welded to a 7mm plate (is that even a stocked thickness of flat bar?) what does that weld look like? it's not very long (50mm?) it will need to be prepped as a FSBW. Then you've welded the red bit on top. Why not make that all one piece up the side? why not make that outside plate pick up both bolts like the inside plate?

The crossmember your winch plate sits on is very thick but isn't very strong because it's lying across the direction it's loaded. Remember the winch is trying to peel it up at the back and forward. Imagine the winch drum stopped and the car started to turn around it - that's the direction the force is in.
There is no reason to put a second plate on top of the crossmember, it's not doing anything except providing the right size footprint for the winch. At that point you have 17mm of steel and its adding almost no strength to the bar. With a couple of small changes you could make that whole top crossmember/winch plate out of 3mm and it would be strong enough. I'll explain that in a minute.

I'm not sure what the big green blocks are under the winch but they're not really adding anything because they're on the wrong side of the crossmember to help. You also have a stock recovery point and steering damper mount in that area.

The crossmember under the factory tube isn't doing enough to bother with, again, because it's only connected at the ends and in one plane. If you clamped one end of that plate in a vice you could twist it easily with a big shifter on the other end because it has no corners - it's weight without strength.

Whilst you've picked up both sides of the chassis, the outside plates are only picking up one bolt and there's a lot of material between the inside and outside green plates that isn't doing anything and isn't adding any strength to the bar.

So there's parts that aren't doing anything, and lots of heavy steel what can't do enough because of the plane it's in.

Plate isn't strong on it's long side, it's strong on edge (and corners are your friend)

Each part you've designed is in isolation. You've chosen plate thicknesses that reflect that each part can't work with other parts to increase its strength.

I assume you intend to weld the 10mm winch plate to the front plate with the cutout for the hawse in it. That's the key. If you think about making everything into a box you can turn thin material into very strong material without weight. Make the crossmember the winch plate is welded to meet the front plate and weld them together. because that front plate has two bends in it and is then fully welded to the crossmember/winch plate, it's now VERY strong.

Now, copy that at the back - put a strip of plate across the back of the winch plate/crossmember and it won't be able to bend up. Note that's what Beery did here:

Quote:
(The red outline represents a plate that will be added to stiffen the winch plate)

Image


Most of that crossmember/winch plate just doesn't need to be there, and/or doesn't need to be very thick at all. 5mm would be overkill, 3mm is fine, but at the mounting holes for the winch it would be ideal to be thicker to prevent the bolts pulling through or bending the base plate (this is a problem with going feet down that ARB doesn't have with mounting the winch feet forward) so, add some weld washers or a doubling plate on the underside just where you need it. I keep the circles from the inside of my holesaw cuts to use as weld washers for this reason - now your 3mm of plate is 6mm where you need it, 3mm where you don't.

As has been pointed out, there's no strength where the outrigger connect. They will fold up and into the bodywork with just a very light nudge. Making that whole side plate one piece and then tying it into the back of the crossmember/winch plate would help, but really, the tube needs more support further along it's length.


Design to put welds into the lowest stress possible.

Your design puts almost all the winch load onto two welds about 75mm in length. I know there are other welds, but for a few reasons they can't help much. The outside plates are only held to the chassis on one bolt, so they can just twist. also, there's no bracing on the crossmember between the inside and outside plates, so that will bend readily. The result is that the weld on in side green plate to the crossmember is very highly loaded and the winch is trying to tear it open - it's pulling on it, which is when welds are weak. It's also a single sided fillet weld, because your design puts the RUF bracket on the inside of it, there's no room for another weld in there.

I can see some straps between the upper and lower crossmember (also in green) but they aren't doing very much because the lower plate isn't braced or gusseted. The bottom plate will bend readily.

As it sits, the winch plate is fillet welded down to the crossmember. Maybe (?) two of the winch mount holes will go through both plates. It seems like a lot of fillet welding and steel that isn't doing anything.


Only use thick material when there no other option, because otherwise it's just adding weight and fabrication complexity for no reason (i.e 7 and 10mm plate is a pain to work with and weld)

I've spent a lot of time talking about thicknesses of your material, so that's well covered, but here's something else - that front plate sees a lot of work. not only does it get bumped into things and will likely have stuff mounted on it, it also has the hawse bolted to it. The hawse takes quite a lot of load when you're winching on a big angle and that single piece of plate will move around. - again, a strip over the top, even 25mm wide, following the whole front plate will add a LOT of strength and support. 3mm is fine, 2mm is too weak.


How I'd move forward:

Redraw what you have but wither everything at 3mm. Make the winch plate and the top crossmember one piece. double up the winch plate area underneath with some 50X3mm flat bar running fore-aft to keep the winch sitting flat when loaded up.
Weld the winch plate/crossmember to the front plate right across the car. Remove the speed holes in the front plate on the angled sections - that area needs to be strong.

Make the outside side plates all one piece right up the side and make them pick up both bolts and run the full depth of the top crossmember. With a brace across the back of the crossmember/winch plate, that would be quite strong.

However, that still puts excessive load on the welds in my opinion, and that's largely because you've designed the bar to it so far in the front of the car. Putting the winch back as far as possible is cool, but there's no reason to put the whole bar so close to the end of the chassis - it just makes it hard to design. if you pulled it forward a little, the uprights could go in front of the winch plate which would take the load off the welds.

Oh, an aside - this design has no provision for recovery points and restricts access to the crossmember to use a sling, and that's only due to the cosmetic filler below the winch plate.

I don't have the time to draw it up in CAD now, but here's some hand sketches of what I mean.

Image

Of course, the whole issue with this though is it still only mounts off the end of the chassis with the four factory bolts. As discussed, that's not really strong enough. It's OK for a bar only, but I wouldn't winch off it.

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Post Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 12:50 pm 
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See the new RUF thread.


Last edited by Gwagensteve on Sun Jul 10, 2022 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 1:03 pm 
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See the new thread on RUF.

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Post Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 2:05 pm 
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I'm nearing completion of my bar, so I'll put some photos up to help make sense of some things that have been mentioned.

Firstly, Steve's suggestion of having the outer chassis mount pick up both bolt holes doesn't really work, because the chassis looks like this:

Image

Which sucks, it would be good to pick it up. It's easy on a narrow track, but not really possible on a wide track, which is why mine only picks up the top bolt, but also why I picked up the body mount/crossmember so it has more to mount to. (I'm sure you worked this out, and that's why your sketch shows only the top bolt, but I just thought I'd point it out) If you narrow track the spring spacing when doing the RUF though, it could be remedied. (note - I've plated this section in on mine, so the bolt has something to tighten up against, it's usually open. but you get the idea)

These next few photos show the added bracing I've put around the winch plate. you can see the difference compared to the other photos in my winch mounting thread.

Image

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The strip along the entire rear of the winch plate will add heaps of strength. I also kept it going past the winch plate and it picks up on the outer chassis mounts too. (the big piece that rises up in the middle is just a guard for the radiator, I've got nightmares of sucking the end of my winch rope/hook in accidently and wiping out the radiator. It's probably not relevant to you, a smaller fairlead and a hook would stop this being an issue, but I don't plan to run a hook so it's just a safety/insurance thing)

In also added a brace that runs under the winch motor and up the front plate (where the fairlead is). This will add more stiffness to the winch plate, but more importantly it will stiffen up the plate that the fairlead is on, because as Steve points out, a big side/ upwards load will be enough to bend/move that plate.

My winch and fairlead is now fully supported in it's own little "square" structure. All doubt in my mind is gone that it's going to move about/be strong enough now.

The entire top plate of my bar fills in around the winch and makes it look nice, but it also stiffens the fairlead plate. Nothing on my bar is cosmetic, every single piece is structural and helps to add strength in one way or another.

Image

Admittedly, it's a bit thin around the fairlead, but that's because my winch is so far back. I was kind of obsessed with having the winch back as far as possible, but bringing it forward would've made this entire project a hell of a lot easier.

Here's a photo of one of my doubling plates for the winch mount bolts:

Image

You could make them a bit bigger if you're worried, or make them long strips that pick up two winch mounts at once (this is what ARB do, and how the rear mounts on my winch are done)

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Post Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 2:23 pm 
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Ah yes, I'd missed that with the stock SJ70 front end. However, there's two solutions. One - run the upright inside the chassis rail, not on the outside, or 2, use a crush sleeve on the top bolt to make both outside mounts level.

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Post Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 2:25 pm 
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That's super elegant Beery, amazing work. Makes my bar look like the chonker it is.

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Post Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 4:39 pm 
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sorry I didnt get around to replying earlier, but thankyou for the advice on my bar, I will post up some updated pictures for further critique after I redesign the bar. and I didnt get around to mentioning it but yes I did only design the outside mounts with one hole because of where the spring hanger is located, but I will be making the spring spacing NT when I do RUF

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Post Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 4:49 pm 
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Good work - keep the design process going.

Something to consider is to buy a sheet of 3mm MDF and make the bar out of that based on your drawing to check for shape and fit. Cardboard is too bendy and isn't the right thickness.

If you can convert you drawing to 2D and print it 1:1 size, you can use the CAD drawing as templates - literally glue them to you steel and cut around them. (a trick I learned from Mike Boroughs Stanceworks YouTube channel.) All the parts will then be the right shape and the hole centres will be perfect etc. Officeworks offer large scale printing and should be able handle a .DXF file as I think they print house plans etc.

It's also important to make sure your design is actually weldable too. I've had to cut things apart because I welded them in the wrong order and was left with no access to weld something important.

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Post Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 6:48 pm 
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Gwagensteve wrote:

Something to consider is to buy a sheet of 3mm MDF and make the bar out of that based on your drawing to check for shape and fit.


I think when it comes to the actual building stage, that's about the best advice you can get. As mentioned in my build thread, I used 3mm corflute to trial make and fit my outer wing pieces and it worked awesome. corflute is good because you can easily cut it with scissors/Stanley knife, but it is a bit flexy in one direction, MDF would be better in that regard, especially for making the winch cradle section.

I re-made or made adjustments to my wing panels heaps of times, but it was easy, didn't cost me much time and was cheap, and you can spend time looking at it and checking proportions out before committing to steel.

If I had of just dived straight into making my panels out of steel, I would've blown through 5 cutting discs, spent hours of time, and then I wouldn't have been happy with them. (because I wasn't happy with my first design in corflute) So now you have wasted steel, wasted time, and wasted consumables all to end up with something that won't be used - Or, because you spent all that time/effort making whatever, you can't justify the time/consumables to re-make it, so you do in fact end up using it, and then you're never happy with it.

I actually made this mistake with my main winch plate. I bent it all up so it recessed down to sit on top of the crossmember, then made up the front section to suit - then when it came time to make the chassis mounts, I realised I had made the bends to close to the chassis, so there was no room to fit a nut in there :oops: soooo, that entire plate needed to be re-done with the bends further inwards. If I had of just mocked it up out of MDF/corflute I could've picked up on it.

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Post Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2022 4:00 pm 
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I have come up with a new design, similar enough to my other design in terms of looks, but with a few changes
some things to note:

the steel is all 3mm.

it isnt shown in the design, but when I mount my winch to the bar there will be weld washers where the bolt holes are, doubling the steel thickness to 6mm in those spots.

there are 4 mounts which wrap around the crossmember. these mounts are made up of two parts, the first which is welded on to the bar and the second which bolts on to the first to create a full wrap around the crossmember.

across the front of the bar the brace extends 20mm below the winch plate as well as above the plate.

I have added a brace across the back of the winch plate.

the tube sides now have a 200mm gusset which runs along the back.

there is no provisions for front lights, I am hoping to mount an aftermarket set to the car.

you may notice no recovery points. but there is access to the front crossmember for recovery with a sling.

there is a 3rd bolt hole in the mounts - the bar is designed with RUF in mind, as such there is 50mm of chassis extension as something that is easy to design with.

Colour coding:
green - chassis mounts
Blue - RUF extension
pink - crossmember wrap arounds
red - winch plate
grey - braces/ gussets
yellow - chassis
white - anything I have missed

pictures are below - criticise away
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Post Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2022 5:22 pm 
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That looks pretty good. I can't see any obvious problems with it, only that it will be very difficult to keep everything aligned as you weld it up - I think you'll find you'll need to substantially open up the bolt holes on your crossmember mounts to get it to fit. It's amazing how far things pull when welded.

The tube outriggers are still inadequately supported and will fold up towards the body pretty easily, but that's an easy detail to resolve - a gusset front the green plate up to the underside of the tube will improve strength a lot. you could make this look more technical by putting a hole in it, which is also something you could hook to in order to stow the winch hook/rope.

Filling the front of the mounts so the open end of the chassis isn't visible also finishes the bar off and makes it look a bit less agricultural.

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Post Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2022 8:27 pm 
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Part of the problem with the tube wings (outriggers?) is that they are cantilevered off of the mounts - the gusset will provide support in one plane only - I'm no engineer, but it appears that you have enough leverage to bend the mount, that is, assuming the welds hold.

How many gussets can you add - one behind supporting for frontal impact, one below for when someone stands on it (you know it's going to happen), one above for when you drop it onto a rock?

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Post Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2022 1:44 pm 
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thanks for the continuing advice
I have now got 3 gussets on each tube outrigger, the lower gussets have a cutout so I can still access the bolts where the mounts are. aside from that I covered up the chassis ends with plate, and added a lower plate to the middle of the bar. the plate has a cutout so you can either access the crossmember for the middle. or on either side of the plate, close to the chassis rails
the bright red represents all the add ons since last design
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