[Mike harris]

Portals are cool few of my mates run Volvo c303 Laplander there pretty awesome ! But height would be a problem and weight !

I'm sticking suzuki !

[chris77]

Gwagensteve wrote:

I’m going to put Toyota third members in it as they fit in a Vitara housing with a 3mm spacer on the mounting flange.

Care to pass on a few more details on what you plan to do ? I assume you are talking about the 8" diff out of a Hilux etc .
I have looked at trying to use bits of the IFS 7.5 diff in a Vitara housing but the one dimension that cans it is the pinion shaft height (no idea the correct term for it) retaliative to the crown wheel . I am not going for excessive strength so mush as wanting lower gears . I was hoping to put 4.3's in the off road only vehicle and then put my 4.6's into the SJ413 , well keep them for spares anyway .

Suzuki 4.3s are around over here but very hard to come by unfortunately , all the old mazda diesel powered imports that had them are mostly dead and crushed now .

Cheers
Chris

[Gwagensteve]

Yes, If lightening my car and raising the gearing still results in broken axles, I'll install the complete dropout third member from a Hilux (8", 4 cylinder) into my Vitara rear housing. it will require the pattern to be re drilled on the housing and a 3mm spacer to centre the axle in the housing. The gears clear the housing and the carrier physically fits.

I'm doing this as the simplest way of getting a 1.31" 30 spline axle into my car.

The gears will not fit into a Vitara carrier, and the toyota gears/dropout third won't fit a sierra or vitara front housing. I don't think this is of much value to you as for your application you'll need custom semi float axles, you'll need to fabricate a mount for the A frame on the top of the axle...etc etc.

[Gwagensteve]

alien wrote:

Could you clock a portal on the end of the housing to 90 degrees so it's stretching the wheelbase instead of lifting it up? Obviously all sorts of leverage issues at play but maybe? I dunno.

I can't think why that would be a good idea. leverage on the housing and portal boxes would be enormous, as would forces acting on the suspension. IT's impractical for the front due to the effect pf scrub radius. It's not like stretching the wheelbase a more conventional way is hard.

[Mike harris]

Quick update I've taken the jeep diff out stripped it and now have the side gears and stub shaft to send off to machine shop.

Be interesting to see if he can machine the suzuki side gear.

[Gwagensteve]

I've done some measuring of my own.

The Sierra centre has a 32mm bore, so a 29.5mm axle will clear.
The sierra spindle is 28mm bore and 5.1mm thick at it's thinnest (at the thread) minus the thread depth. ~1.0mm, so ~4mm. The spindle wouldn't want to be an interference fit, so id guess you'd want the spindle to have 0.5mm of clearance all around at a minimum, so spindle bore would want to be 30.5 minimum.

I'd imagine that at a 31" tyre, just under 4mm is plenty thick enough for the spindle. but with the weight of your car and the weight of the tyre/wheel combination I'm not sure.

As discussed, with a custom spool, you could go to 1.31" 30 spline at the differential end, use Jeep or fire spindles and have adequate strength.

I hadn't looked at detail at the D30 spline because I genuinely don't believe the work involved will provide a strong enough solution for me, but it will be interesting to see how you go.

[Mike harris]

Good morning, yes I also agree I don't like the spindle thing either with this route, the only reason I'm going to give it a try is that one of the zanfi kits has been fitted to a Russian suzuki who have used it a fair bit so I am told, but that's not to say I won't run Into issues.

But the events I do over here are very differant to the European and I gues world wide events, in the uk he sites we Offroad on are small, so you never any more than maybe 2/4 miles from your spares or your trailer with you parts. I know if a spindle was to fail it would be pretty catastrophic but he speeds I do in mine it's not going to be a problem, winch challenges over here are alsmost zero driving just winching.

Like I said I just want to try this direction then il go another route when or if it fails.

So you guys think I should upgrade the hub end to to the same so the shafts same both ends? And have the drive flanges broached out as well?

[Gwagensteve]

No point upgrading the diff end and not the hub end- they’ll break even quicker than what you have now if you don’t. Broach the drive flanges to match.

[Mike harris]

Ok mate cool I will, next step is to strip some sj413 axles I have (narrow track) to get the side gears out.

Then I can send my machine man all the parts he needs.

Axle alley in my lock up has a few donor axles down the side of my kja which il never finish, been shot blasted now just sat there very sad

[Gwagensteve]

The key with any full floating axle is to have it twist as uniformly as possible along it’s length. Any taper will concentrate the twist to the area of minimum diameter and cause rapid failure.

I’ve noticed that some of our American friends seem to think 300m either doesn’t twist or is indestructible, so they pay no attention to this and create axles that fail at the spline because that’s where the minimum diameter is, which is a massive waste of good material. Makes them cheaper to machine though.

Good axle design will have the shaft slightly smaller OD than the root of the spline.

Interesting fact- long and short side unimog axles are different diameters so they twist the same amount for the same torque.

[Mike harris]

So this is the shaft that was my latest victim !

300m custom shaft

Spline area biggest but then a sheer point to allow a clean break.

Pretty incredible break I'd say !

This went bang when it broke !

First one to break hub end, heck out the twist as well, diff end one is perfect, flat spline cut on the top as well compared to suzuki style is a bit more sharpe cut.

Couple of pics there showing the suzuki shaft next to the Dana shaft which is what I'm going to aim for next ! Slight increase in size the pitch of spline slightly differant but not to bad, my machine man wants to make the shaft big at the end of the spline and taper back towards the hub, but I'm on the fence about it.

[Gwagensteve]

There was a material or heat treatment issue with that axle- it didn’t fail at the weakest point. (The splines) - that axle wasn’t appropriately necked down away from the splines to prevent failure at the spline, yet failed away from the splines.

I’ve seen an EN-26 axle fail the same way, in almost exactly the same spot. (It was necked down though)

Any taper along the axle will defeat the purpose of increasing diameter at the splines by concentrating the twist. It will likely end up weaker than what you give now.

My first step would be giving a spindle to your machinist to bore out to suit the dana axle. See what you think of the remaining strength.

[Mike harris]

It's failed where the step down is in the axle shaft, il put a better picture up.

Emailed zanfi and spoke to them they have poped on 35 inch tyres with the jumbo kit, I'm happy to turn the spindles out, the main thing I need to know before going further is can the side gears be machined by my guy or will they have to be electro eroded.

Got In contact with a Russian guy who's got samurai axles under a jimny with there kit, just waiting to hear back from him.

[Mike harris]

Trying to work out best solution for the situation I I'm in.

Bloody Suzuki's !!

Couple more pics of the shaft that poped !

[Gwagensteve]

Wow, That step wasn't clear in the other photos. That's the dumbest bit of axle design I've seen for a while. No wonder it broke in the manner it did - that's a massive stress riser. It would have failed well before it should have, as evidenced by the lack of any twist at the splines. If the whole axle is winding up there will a small twist in the splines, even if it's not where the axle failed.

Wy is it so hard for people to design and machine axles properly?


Heres is what a poorly designed 300M axle does at failure (blackmax/kickass offroad)

diameter of the shaft is 26.1mm
Diameter of the shaft at the splines is 27mm
Diameter of the base of the splines is 25.1mm
It failed at the splines at the other end.



The exaggerated amount of twist at the spline(s) is because the base diameter was less than the diameter of the shaft - all the twist is being concentrated into the couple of inches of exposed spline


here's a well designed axle. (made by Jack Graff at CTM. I think these are regular 4340)

Diameter of the shaft is 24.5mm
Diameter at the base of the spline is 25.5
look at the smooth transition from spline to shaft. These shafts have been in the front of my car for ~12 years or something and they're like new.



When designing axles that are arguably too small for the application, good design and machining is super critical.

There's a drag racing practice of marking a line along the axle shafts to check whether they're approaching plastic deformation - the line will show if they're not returning 100% after being twisted up. This only works assuming the shaft, not the spline is doing the twisting though.

[alien]

I just had new axles done by PJ's Offroad and they explained exactly what Steve is saying above, and my new axles look exactly like the second image.

[Gwagensteve]

Were your old axles 4play?

[alien]

JML - They've not broken completely yet but the splines are chipping apart.

[jdk81]

The step on that axle is terrible!

[Mike harris]

So I'm thinking of having the shaft come down from 35mm to the 29.5, so from the diff spline it will transfer into a bigger shaft, rather than taper down, same idea but taper up, with a smooth transition from splines into the thick section.

Would mean when the shaft breaks means taking the spindle of The axle, I was just thinking if it's thicker the other taper could also be far more gradule down to the hub side, as that's got to be thin to go through the spindle.

Those shafts I had made with the harsh taper as I was sick of shafts breaking in the diff and me not able to get them out with out taking the diff out, seems odd that it broke in the hub with that design.

I have 4 shafts left, 3 long 1 short.

[Gwagensteve]

I'm struggling to picture exactly what you mean, but to me it sounds like you're basically designing an axle to fail rather than design the strongest possible axle.

The strongest possible axle will be the same diameter through it's whole length. An axle is a kind of torsion bar and the more spring it has the more it's able to absorb shock loads (like when a tyre momentarily comes up against an obstacle or the car bounces.

The weakest point of the axle will be at it's minimum diameter. the rest of the axle could be 50mm diameter, it's not going to be any stronger than wherever it has the smallest diameter, but it's going to reduce the amount the axle can twist before failure, which means the axle becomes less durable. My 300M axle photo above is proof of that - they were less durable than the EN-26 axles which were made from a weaker material and were much smaller diameter away from the splines.

Removing a spindle to get the axle out isn't idea but I guess it's ultimately no different to the front, and if your spline at the diff end mandates that then that's OK, but you need to maximise the axle diameter and spline throughout the whole axle or you'll have gained no strength through this exercise. I know you're very keen to design the axles to fail at a point you can get them out easily, and that's not surprising given your history of axle breakage, but design the strongest axle and maybe you won't have to deal with frequent replacement,

[Mike harris]

Don't stuggle mate that's not good for you ! All part of the fun trying stuff,'it don't work try another route, you never know I might re invent the wheel and everything will be great !

We shall find out, I have almost no doubt il fall flat on my face as with other ideas I've had on my truck hahaha !!

How wide are the adaptors used by the float kits you guys use?? Anyone got any manufacturer links to sites that make them in Australia, or indeed any suzuki aftermarket supplies you guys recommend for parts?

Also anyone got links to people who compete in Australia in winch challenge or outback style events? Any rigs people know of running suzuki running gear, no Toyota stuff that's the easy way / sensible way !!

Has anyone also tried to dowl the drive flange to stop them coming undone and chopping the flange bolts / studs? I've updated mine to arp studs and they still work loose, this is with the vitara style flange with conical nuts and locktight. I know the material is limited in the suzuki hub in the face to be able to drill and get a dowl in place, wondering if any one had tried it?

[Gwagensteve]

I understand what you're trying, but you're also asking for real world experience, which I have, and to me it looks like you're pressing ahead with an axle idea that won't be stronger than what you have now. It's your money and axles, but I'm trying to give you the benefit of what I've learned over the years. There's no point upgrading the splines if the axle ends up poorly designed and fails as readily as what you have now. Even if you get your D30 spline through both the diff and drive flange, you'll have gained 15% in strength over and equivalent 26 spline axle. Any compromise from that is going to see no benefit over what you have now if it requires a taper or reduction in diameter somewhere. In my opinion your car needs a minimum of 30 spline axles, which won't go through the spindle. One solution is to adapt your housing to use Toyota front spindles, then get the toyota hub drilled to 5 on 5.5. You can keep your rims and brakes, you have enough axle, you can upgrade to 10mm drive flange bolts and 80 series drive flanges. Then you can stuff as much spline as you can fit into your sierra centre. That keeps your wheels, your housing and gives you adequate axle strength.
Yes, drilling the toyota hub to 5 on 5.5 is a bit messy but its better than boring a suzuki spindle and being stuck with its compromises.

My spindle adapter is 10mm thick. I had a bunch laser cut and tapped years ago and they're all gone now.

ADD engineering (Tanshi on here, who has already put in his 2c) makes full float kits. He competes in trials type events with his gear but on 33" tyres and very light cars compared to yours or mine. His gear is quality.

I'm not aware of anyone who currently competes in winch events against larger 4WD's with a suzuki driveline. Some people tried years ago but the format of winch events locally doesn't favour suzukis. New Zealand events seem to be much more suzuki friendly as the conditions favour lighter cars and there's less traction.

Yes, the drive flange is overloaded and the 8mm bolts are inadequate. I don't think there's adequate meat to dowel the stock hub because it's waisted between the bolts. I have thought about building that up to make it a consistent diameter like a toyota hub which would allow room for dowels, but in truth, if dowels are making a difference the connection has already failed - they shouldn't be transmitting any torque, thats the job of the friction between the drive flange and hub.

It might be possible to upgrade to 3/8" Gr 12.9 cap heads which would allow higher torque values. I don't believe there's enough meat to tap a 10mm bolt or enough space to get the bolt head past the wheels, maybe 3/8 would fit better. I'm experimenting with nord-lock washers with 8mm unbrakos. a club member running a floater is running them successfully but he's recently dropped tyre weight and width substantially so some of his success might be down to that.

[Mike harris]

All in the hands of Machine shop now, they have Zuki side gears,Zuki drive flanges, jeep side gears, jeep shaft to try and see what they can do.

Did an event with two rcv shafts in the rear last weekend hard event came 2nd, no brekaages, rear Hub flange studs worked loose mid day but other than that worked well.

I think they'll find the 26 spline will hollow out when the 27. 29.5mm spline is cut

So might have to drop 22 spline fronts as may have more meat

[Mike harris]

So step one is done

Electro wire eroded flange, now have the three tightness choices

[Mike harris]

Side gears are now finished still plenty of meat left in them too which I'm really pleased with

Next step send them off with the dimensions and the jeep shaft to copy to the machine shop and we are nearly there !

[Mike harris]

Side gears and drive flanges now Dana 30 spline spec

Machining quality is ideal for what I need

Next up 300m shafts

[Gwagensteve]

Interesting - the splines don't look very deep, with the peaks having quite a flat top. Was that a limitation of your EDM provider or a nature of the Dana splines? I have limited experience with Dana spline profiles.

Not a value judgement, just an observation. I've seen some very poorly formed splines that function just fine.

[Mike harris]

Hello mate,

The splines he same with 0.001 mm tolerance I think that's what the email said lots of zeros then a 1 ! Hahaha

Yeh exactly the same as the Dana spline, but slightly tighter to account for any wear in the 100k diff I gave them to shadow graph

Il try and film the fitment and add a little video my mates just had Dana 60 shafts made fit a patrol diff, so we had them done at the same time

Next up box them up and send them to the shaft shop get them made up

[Mike harris]

This wire erosion technique is incredible machine it was done on was £2 million pounds, mental !