[tanshi]

yeah i have 1 of each ratio already. i just need to find a pair for one of them.

[Gwagensteve]

OK, I have some time to put some stuff down on paper.

Firstly, I don't know how or what (terrain) you drive, however, we have had a very good run with Doubletough CV's and Vitara front R&P's in sierras on 35's. Obviously, we drive hard terrain, but we're rarely on high traction surfaces. If we do get lots of traction and binding, we're wiping out hub bolts before anything else. I consider this a great "fuse" and I'm not really that keen to upgrade the hub bolts. I'd rather do a set of hub bolts than an axle or R&P.

However, none of us have the torque of a J20. Take the extra 50Nm or so, and an undercut ledge or something - and I don't know. I do know the auto is much softer on driveline than a manual, until you neutral drop.

However, if you're pushing beyond the strength of DT's, I'd be worried about the cast steering arms and kingpins. They certainly weren't designed for the leverage of a 35, and the last two front ends I've pulled down that have been running 35's have had broken kingpin, so with a heavy/powerful car and 35's, even if the axles are sweet, there's clearly parts there that are way past their design loading.

Vitara rear axletubes are not suited to use in the front of a big car. They are thinner wall than a WT front and US experience is that they bend easily. I have a housing cut for use in the front, and I'm not convinced I'd be happy to run it. Obviously, a custom housing like Joe's would counter that, and I do think the vitara rear is a big step up in strength over a WT rear.

I wouldn't bother with a sierra rear centre in the rear. They are just too far beyond their design parameters with that much tyre on them. The housings are bendy, the bearing blocks are cheesy compared to vitara, and you'll be wrecking pinions because you'll be defeating pinion bearing preload under something like eight times the input torque the sierra pinion was designed for. In my experience, the preload goes south, the pattern shifts, the seal goes out and you wipe the gears out. Others disagree, but I've seen enough to hold my opinion.

The Vitara rear centre is designed for more torque and they don't seem to fail anywhere near as easily. A bunch of us have gone from loose, leaky sierra rear centres to straight-from-the-wreckers vitara rears with no problems after years of abuse.

We have two cars in the club running WT based floater rears with 35s, but they are running 3.7/3.9 diffs with trimatics, so they are locked in to WT ratios.

We've broken one EN-26 floater rear axle and I have twisted splines on mine. We're stepping up to 300m axles, which exceed Hy-Tuf by a substantial margin for strength.

We've worked incrementally within the bounds of a suzuki-based, road driven axle. Ideally, if I was starting from scratch, I'd stay suzuki based but go 100mm over width and add that 50mm per side to offset. This would take heaps of load off the bearings and reduce steering scrub radius. However, that's based on what we drive, not necessarily on what you plan to drive.

If I was to move away from suzuki stuff, I think I'd me looking at toyota based diffs. Probably an 80 series front at full width with 6" backspaced 17X9" walkers. Not sure about the rear. I don't like semi floating axles but I wouldn't want the bulk of a cruiser rear.

If I was being perverse, I'd even consider running 15" rims on the rear on an IFS hilux width axle to get more tyre deformation and a narrower track in the rear... but I'm just a bit perverse sometimes.

Bear in mind that by my calcs 300m 26 spline floater axles are much stronger than factory cruiser axles, and might even be stronger than off the shelf cro-mo cruiser. (really!) so it's really down to bearing longevity, brakes and track width. We don't really want track width for our ruts - narrow is an advantage for us, so it's kept us to suzuki stuff.

In all honesty, I reckon Dana would be a massive pain.

If you wanted to go North American, Spider 9's would have to be the only way to go, bu tI don't think you need that much strength. (not that strong axles aren't cool, but you only need enough strength, not massive overkill and $$$$ - not to mention unit bearings and "unique" parts. I'd rather be able to replace parts from a dealer/wrecker/something I have lying out the back

Steve.

[burls]

I know where(close) there is some well priced Bundy diffs but then your wheels wont fit

[Gwagensteve]

Bundy is OK, but they are drum/semi float rear which doesn't float my boat.

Also, no off-the-shelf cro-mo axles.

I'm not convinced factory bundy is much stronger that what we are running (DT/Vitara rear float we)

Steve.

[Zook_Fan]

What is housing strength like with the Vit rear? I'm looking into this purely for housing strength and a bit of reliability with 35's but don't want to be chopping housings down to suit the axles at the rate I bend WT rears

[Gwagensteve]

They're stronger than WT rear. Definitely.

The tubes aren't as strong as WT front though, which are heavier wall.

Steve.

[BlueSuzy]

Factory bundy are hilux size 30spline

Disc converted rear is as easy as doing a lux, but abit different at same time.

Yes they are semi float. If i snap an axle it may get me home welding the axle to the bearing. I would prefer full floater. I may do that later with cruiser gear cut and shut depending if i can find off the wreckers shelf axle lengths

This will all add weight over sierra diffs, and so far on road with 1.6, 6.5's and 4.3s and 35's, she still goes great for a sierra.

Suzuki sierra complete diff housing/hubs/etc Front 80kg Rear 63.5kg
Hilux complete diff housing/axles etc Front 107kg Rear 92kg, but delete heavy rear drums they will be lighter

[mr.green]

i know how we love to hate going to toyota gear around here. ive been there and built my project on suzuki diffs to start with. The big deal breaker for me was the wheel track. with the 15 x 8 -25mm wheels i had on the suzuki diffs i was over the max 25mm increase in wheel track allowed by vehicle standards. This can't be engineered out. Its the rules, thats not going to change.

So for me i started looking down the whole vit rear, widened sierra front bla bla bla and in the end thought " what is the point" ?
I understand Joe, with his ability to have housings cut folded and him welding them better than factory, can make whatever he can dream up or steve that seems to just adore spending hours in the shed. I understand these things work well for these guys and thats cool. BUT

for little old me that either has to sculpt out everything with a 4" grinder or pay retail for machine work its just an uphill battle that doesn't have to be fought when toyota have already made an off the shelf upgrade with the lux/bundy combo. at the moment i'm running standard axles, 4.55 gears, 0 offset wheels and 35s. (oh yeh, and a J20). if i ever break an axle i will order some dirty 30s or similar but i'm not overly abusive in the drivers seat so i'll cross that bridge when i come to it.

I'm happy knowing ive got a pretty strong setup with a tight scrub radius and the ability to buy off the shelf standard parts or upgraded bits if need be.

my vote: sell the wheels and everything else will be easier!

[Ridge]

What he said ^^^
If you were only planning 35s the suzuki gear would be fine with the floating rear etc. Since you have plans to go bigger in the future go for something stronger from the start.

[Red89]

mr.green wrote:

i know how we love to hate going to toyota gear around here. ive been there and built my project on suzuki diffs to start with. The big deal breaker for me was the wheel track. with the 15 x 8 -25mm wheels i had on the suzuki diffs i was over the max 25mm increase in wheel track allowed by vehicle standards. This can't be engineered out. Its the rules, thats not going to change.

So for me i started looking down the whole vit rear, widened sierra front bla bla bla and in the end thought " what is the point" ?
I understand Joe, with his ability to have housings cut folded and him welding them better than factory, can make whatever he can dream up or steve that seems to just adore spending hours in the shed. I understand these things work well for these guys and thats cool. BUT

for little old me that either has to sculpt out everything with a 4" grinder or pay retail for machine work its just an uphill battle that doesn't have to be fought when toyota have already made an off the shelf upgrade with the lux/bundy combo. at the moment i'm running standard axles, 4.55 gears, 0 offset wheels and 35s. (oh yeh, and a J20). if i ever break an axle i will order some dirty 30s or similar but i'm not overly abusive in the drivers seat so i'll cross that bridge when i come to it.

I'm happy knowing ive got a pretty strong setup with a tight scrub radius and the ability to buy off the shelf standard parts or upgraded bits if need be.

my vote: sell the wheels and everything else will be easier!

All the same reasons I went Lux, would have loved to stay Zook but wanted the convenience of off the shelf parts and reliability on high traction surfaces as I would rather be out wheeling then in the shed fixing stuff after every trip.

[BlueSuzy]

mr.green wrote:

pay retail for machine work

You only have to ask

Basic mill and lathe.

[SierraDan]

Youre on 38's but Bevan haha.

[Red89]

I would have been on 35's with shaved diffs if I had stayed with zooks, so figured if I was going Lux I might as well go all out

[tanshi]

so truss a vitara rear to stop bending? or find a way to graft sierra axle tubes onto a vit centre...

[SierraDan]

A truss/sleeving makes more sense to me..

[Ridge]

If you were looking to go custom, with suzuki housings why not try and do something like Tim Haryds zuk?
Specs are something like this:

Stock housing, EZ Locker, 5.12 gears, LAC Birfields, Dutchman inner axles, Hardy-made 26-spline outer shafts

Rear drivetrain:Sidekick centersection, EZ Locker with Ford side gears, 31-spline Ford axles

Read more: http://www.4wheeloffroad.com/2006ultima ... z2BKvSASpC

[tanshi]

31 spline ford axles are only the same size as lux any way. 33mm
if i can get 30.5mm 28 spline in 300m im confident that will be strong enough.

the front end is really my only concern.

I was looking at the front end over the weekend and i dont have a huge amount of sump clearance around the pumpkin. how hard is it going to be to shave the top of the pumpkin as well as the bottom?

I will probably look at adding a little width to the diffs as well while im at it.

[got_bar_work]

If there is a way make the sierra king pins and steering arms stronger then getting joe to make custom vit.rears all round would.be the go
If any one could make.it work.it would be joe
Plus u might be able to get portals if he makes them
That would take heaps.of load of axles and gears

[303zuke]

Gwagensteve wrote:

Bundy is OK, but they are drum/semi float rear which doesn't float my boat.

Also, no off-the-shelf cro-mo axles.

Trial Jimny duzzem: http://www.trialjimny.com/toy_HD_rear.html

[gregc]

Shaving the top of the diff should be no harder than shaving the bottom.

Maybe a custom sump for the j20?

I recall the issue with the vitara centre in the front of a sierra was spring mount on the drivers side. I'm guessing the lj will have the same issues.

I don't recall what knuckles the old spidertrax side winders had, but their specs might give you some ideas.

[tanshi]

yeah looks like the drivers side spring land will need some work.

shave the top of the diff or mod the sump will be looked at.

hmm. might have to track down some old spider trax info

[got_bar_work]

Could go dyna outers and vit center like the ones overkill made

[tanshi]

just to bump this up.
any one know what size tyre these would hold up to?
[A] Dana 44 front diff from Inter Scout, ARB, 4.88 Yukon gears & chromo axles, 5 Stud, Complete.
[B] Nissan H260 rear diff, ARB, 4.88 gears, 5 Stud conversion, complete.

[mika]

Do you realise how much ground clearance you'd loose with H260 diff , probably weigh half the weight of the LJ too. I drive GU patrol utes with the H260 and they really are massive. My guess is 40's+ on the rear.

[Gwagensteve]

mika wrote:

Do you realise how much ground clearance you'd loose with H260 diff , probably weigh half the weight of the LJ too. I drive GU patrol utes with the H260 and they really are massive. My guess is 40's+ on the rear.

X lots.

My tow rig project has a D70 rear and I reckon it's no bigger than a H260.

In any case, H260's have weak pinion shafts if you load them up. I've seen one break on 40's.

Steve.

[pezz]

tanshi wrote:

just to bump this up.
any one know what size tyre these would hold up to?
[A] Dana 44 front diff from Inter Scout, ARB, 4.88 Yukon gears & chromo axles, 5 Stud, Complete.
[B] Nissan H260 rear diff, ARB, 4.88 gears, 5 Stud conversion, complete.

I'd happily run sticky 37's on those.

[Gwagensteve]

And get owned on the tracks by a car on sierra diffs and 33's.

Big heavy diffs are for big heavy cars. Big heavy diffs on light cars are for rock comps only, and as there's about three of them Australia wide, they don't make any sense for a suzuki.

Steve

[pezz]

Some of us wheel on rocks on private property.. not everything is about being the best... for me i like a strong reliable rig that i can beat on every weekend in high traction environments and have minumal failures.


Big heavey diffs have a place on non comp rock crawlers too

[Gwagensteve]

Just not everywhere.

Critta was a "non comp" rock crawler that ended up being turned into a "comp" rock crawler because driving a buggy on recreational tracks isn't much fun.

In any case, like everything, it's all relative. pure, recreational rock driving doesn't need 40's or H260 diffs. Comp driving might, but it all depends on how the tracks are setup and the rules, which are often written around big cars, which advantage big tyres/heavy cars. Recreational driving isn't like that, so a lighter car that's not driven on the clock will do better.

Steve.

[SierraDan]

The lighter actual tube buggies drive the rocky stuff much easier than the car based crawlers.

But sticky 37's and LOTS of cage really are a bare minimum for a lot of the good tracks around here. Most of us enjoy hard social wheeling to comps.

The sierra im building will greatly struggle to drive the tracks im expecting. But i will try.