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Ethanol and G16B EFI
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Author:  ryangus [ Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:15 am ]
Post subject:  Ethanol and G16B EFI
I notice a servos around me are no longer selling normal unleaded, only the premium stuff and the 10% ethanol blend. What's the go with using the ethanol stuff - should I avoid it or what?
Author:  Scrawny [ Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol and G16B EFI
Yes, use premium
Author:  royce [ Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol and G16B EFI
go somewhere else, the Shell near me has regular Unleaded
Author:  zookfun [ Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol and G16B EFI
Ive got a g13b and ethanol is all I use, I use it in all my cars actually..
Author:  ball [ Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol and G16B EFI
ethanol is crap and should only be used to set fire to greenies and hippies
Author:  whincup [ Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol and G16B EFI
it is cheaper, but doesnt get you as far. overall ends up costing more... i used it in mums old camry and dads escape, and i dont notice a difference while driving (other than the fuel gauge drops a little quicker)... however i put it in my sierra once, and it took 2 full tanks of premium before it was running properly again...
Author:  MacDaddy [ Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol and G16B EFI
ryangus wrote:
I notice a servos around me are no longer selling normal unleaded, only the premium stuff and the 10% ethanol blend. What's the go with using the ethanol stuff - should I avoid it or what?


Oh boy, this topic is sure to create some discussion for and against... lol...
I only use Premium, anything less, is less for your Zook... E10 is not big on the West coast, i think only 2 servo's sell it... if it was here more, i would give it a go, but i think if you are going to use E10, you need to re-tune your car for that blend, otherwise it may not run well or 100%... :wink:

But i have been putting Ethanol, in the form of Metho, in the tank of every Zook i have owned, regularly, with no bad effect, mind you, its a small percentage, 500mls to at least a 40L tank, i think that works out to be about 1 or 2% for a 40L tank... :wink: :lol:
Author:  SuziBlu [ Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol and G16B EFI
I use 98, bung in a litre of metho once a month or so for water cleaning, my father running an injected 1.6 uses E10, he says 98 is not any more advantage than E10, just costs more, and regular 91 is a noticeable drop in performance and a bit less milage.
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol and G16B EFI
Any engine that's not knock sensed won't really show an advantage using more octane than the minimum recommended for the model. The (crude and possibly a bit misleading) reason is that the engine doesn't know to advance the spark further to compensate for the slower burn of the higher octane fuel so putting 98 in a car optimised for 91 is just burning money.

This has been proved numerous times on the road and the dyno.

With older EFI cars that are 02 sensed (but not knock sensed) so long as the octane is sufficient, the 02 sensor will trim fuelling when at light throttle. Running e10 might result in slightly poorer fuel economy and it might be economically viable to run it. There is no other benefit if it's not economic.

With modern EFI with knock sensing, 4 wire O2 sensing etc it's not economically viable to run E10 in my opinion. I tried it and it was more expensive to use because fuel use increased by a greater % than the price reduced.

Those tests were done with my 2002 Renaultsport Clio, so a highly efficient engine with complex EFI system. I run a very consistent drive route every day so they were scientific enough for me.

I repeated the test with a 2005 Mini Cooper S using Shell V-power Racing (The 100 octane E5 bend) Again, there was no perceptible increase in performance, and you wouldn't expect one for 2 octane points- but economy dropped below 98 octane premium levels, so it was back to straight 98 octane.

There's a range of other problems with Ethanol, but they don't show at E10 level.

The key thing to remember is Ethanol is a LESS efficient fuel than petrol, by about 20%, so about 2% overall for E10. If your tuning is coarse (as in with a carby or basic EFI) you might see no loss of economy. The more complex the EFI system, the more you will notice fuel effects.

Steve.
Author:  whincup [ Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol and G16B EFI
SuziBlu wrote:
I use 98, bung in a litre of metho once a month or so for water cleaning, my father running an injected 1.6 uses E10, he says 98 is not any more advantage than E10, just costs more, and regular 91 is a noticeable drop in performance and a bit less milage.


what do you mean? ethanol is less powerful than regular unleaded petrol, so it should be a drop in performance if anything. i have heard somewhere that it can dry out all the seals in the engine, so you should run a tank of unleaded in between every second or third tank of E10.

but it cant be too bad, the V8supercars run an 85% blend of ethanol. they had to retune the engines to keep the power levels the same, but they now chew about 20-30% more fuel... i just dont like it in my sierra because it made it run really bad.
Author:  ajsr [ Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol and G16B EFI
ball wrote:
ethanol is crap and should only be used to set fire to greenies and hippies


It probably wouldn't even do that as good as proper petrol :wink:


on a another note if you servo has 10% ethanol fuel and no regular unleaded you will probably find their premium is and ethanol blend too, the cheap bastards use it to up the octane rating of the fuel thats why standard 10 % is 95 octane.
and dont use it in air cooled engines like saws and generators as they run hotter and hate it
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol and G16B EFI
whincup wrote:

but it cant be too bad, the V8supercars run an 85% blend of ethanol. they had to retune the engines to keep the power levels the same, but they now chew about 20-30% more fuel...


And that's it in a nutshell. It's not a "bad" fuel... so long as the engine is tuned for it, the fuel system was built for it and you're prepared for the fuel use. It can make big power if you get enough of it into the engine. A sierra isn't built for it and ethanol isn't economically viable (yet - it might be)

Steve.
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol and G16B EFI
whincup wrote:

but it cant be too bad, the V8supercars run an 85% blend of ethanol. they had to retune the engines to keep the power levels the same, but they now chew about 20-30% more fuel...


And that's it in a nutshell. It's not a "bad" fuel... so long as the engine is tuned for it, the fuel system was built for it and you're prepared for the fuel use. It can make big power if you get enough of it into the engine. A sierra isn't built for it and ethanol isn't economically viable (yet - it might be)

Steve.
Author:  SuziBlu [ Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol and G16B EFI
Most engine computers can agust to approx 10% tuning levels, from 91 unleaded to 94 E10 is less by far than this, so it stands to reason the computer can learn, and change its tuning.

Remember, ethanol is 33% 02 by nature.
Author:  whincup [ Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol and G16B EFI
Gwagensteve wrote:
whincup wrote:

but it cant be too bad, the V8supercars run an 85% blend of ethanol. they had to retune the engines to keep the power levels the same, but they now chew about 20-30% more fuel...


And that's it in a nutshell. It's not a "bad" fuel... so long as the engine is tuned for it, the fuel system was built for it and you're prepared for the fuel use. It can make big power if you get enough of it into the engine. A sierra isn't built for it and ethanol isn't economically viable (yet - it might be)

Steve.


sorry, i didnt really explain what i meant by "bad"... i was referring to some people (not on this forum) ive heard discussing negative effects on the motor, such as it drying out seals, etc.
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol and G16B EFI
Which is true. E85 is also corrosive to aluminium, and the reason why E85 cars run stainless steel fuel rails etc.

Not really relevant to E10 though AFAIK.

Steve.
Author:  BertZook [ Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol and G16B EFI
sorry for the silly question then.. sooo which fuel should be the best for which engine?
Author:  steak_knife [ Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol and G16B EFI
BertZook wrote:
sorry for the silly question then.. sooo which fuel should be the best for which engine?


98!!!! :P

Unless it's a diesel.. :roll:
Author:  TZAR [ Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol and G16B EFI
SuziBlu wrote:
Most engine computers can agust to approx 10% tuning levels, from 91 unleaded to 94 E10 is less by far than this, so it stands to reason the computer can learn, and change its tuning.

Remember, ethanol is 33% 02 by nature.


No its not. It is two carbon atoms, six hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. That would make it 1/9th or 11% oxygen. Energy is realesed by breaking the bonds and nothing is ever consumed

Remember matter cannot be created or destroyed

and oxygen is O2 when its stable not part of a compound.

Image
Author:  TZAR [ Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol and G16B EFI
And would people read the suzuki manual. The one that comes with the car.

IT STATES THAT YOU CAN RUN E5 WITH NO PROBLEMS AT ALL. THIS IS PRINTED MATERIAL ISSUED BY SUZUKI MOTOR COMPANY WHICH MADE THE CAR.

So suzuki motors can be run on ethanol. ok.
Author:  ajsr [ Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol and G16B EFI
TZAR wrote:
And would people read the suzuki manual. The one that comes with the car.

IT STATES THAT YOU CAN RUN E5 WITH NO PROBLEMS AT ALL. THIS IS PRINTED MATERIAL ISSUED BY SUZUKI MOTOR COMPANY WHICH MADE THE CAR.

So suzuki motors can be run on ethanol. ok.


yeah but if you have the choice why would you run E10
they only say that as half the backward bum fuck countrys the sold zooks into run anything that burns in their engines
Author:  royce [ Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol and G16B EFI
SuziBlu wrote:
Most engine computers can agust to approx 10% tuning levels, from 91 unleaded to 94 E10 is less by far than this, so it stands to reason the computer can learn, and change its tuning.

Remember, ethanol is 33% 02 by nature.


there are very very few engine ecu's that can learn and retune to suit the conditions, and then its only a small amount, most of em will trim the cruise and idle mixture a small amount

98 can be great for lean carbys cause its denser so in theory you run a little richer and might net some more power

on my efi 1.6 I dont notice a while lot of different in power or fuel usage between 91 and 98, at least when everything is tuned and running properly
Author:  SuziBlu [ Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol and G16B EFI
TZAR wrote:
SuziBlu wrote:
Most engine computers can agust to approx 10% tuning levels, from 91 unleaded to 94 E10 is less by far than this, so it stands to reason the computer can learn, and change its tuning.

Remember, ethanol is 33% 02 by nature.


No its not. It is two carbon atoms, six hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. That would make it 1/9th or 11% oxygen. Energy is realesed by breaking the bonds and nothing is ever consumed



Look at mass, hydrogen has a very tiny mass, oxygen by comparison is huge.

I am not a chemist, but here is the breakdown.


percentage of Oxygen
= (mass of oxygen in ethanol *100)/ total mass of ethanol
Mass of oxygen in ethanol=16g
Mass of ethanol =12*2+6+16=46 g
percentage of Oxygen=16*100/46=34.78%


I am unsure of the full workings of ethanol, but it is called an oxygenate. There is tons of info about ethanols oxyganating capacity out there for anyone to read up on.
Author:  SuziBlu [ Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol and G16B EFI
Henry Ford many years ago thought that ethanol was the fuel of the future, and meant for his cars to run on it, its the big fuel companys that vetoed that line of thinking.

I run 98 on everything, cars, chainsaw, even me mower. I have to transport it from lincoln to home, I go to lincoln, fuel up, fill 4 jerrys, and be buggered if Im gunna fill one with crap fuel, so everything gets it.

Tuned well, a car running on 98 will shit on a car running on cheap crap.
Author:  lordfury007 [ Sat Aug 28, 2010 3:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol and G16B EFI
In accordance with the ACAI website

Quote:
Suzuki

Alto, Mighty Boy, Wagon R+, Swift/Cino, Sierra, Stockman, Vitara, X-90, Jimny (SOHC), Super Carry, Suzuki Baleno and Baleno GTX
are NOT E5 or E10 suitable.

additionally

Quote:
Suzuki

All models except above (providing RON requirements are met)
are suitable to run both E5 and E10

I'm not saying its right, i'm just quoting someone that knows more than me about this stuff.
Author:  MacDaddy [ Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol and G16B EFI
Yep i am quite sure racing cars wouldnt use Ethanol if it wasnt a viable good fuel... all it takes is a bit of retuning... and ethanol is alot cleaner burning, and pollutes alot less... :wink:

And from what i understand, Ethanol burns cooler than normal fuel, so helps keep the engine a bit cooler... :roll:

When i switched to Premium, 95ron, i felt a difference, but when i recently had it retuned, i found it ran even better, so it all comes down to getting the right tuning setup... :wink:

Heres one to laugh at...
When i used to work in the bush, i was put in temp accommodation, that had a Kero hot water system, i had a 10L tin of it, i had just refilled it, when i was told i can move into the SMQ... and not wanting to wastes the kero or leave it for some other bugger to use... i decided i would put it into the tank of my 1L Sierra i had at the time, he he... it ran ok, if a little sluggish on throttle response... but the best part was when i turned the key off... the engine kept running 8O It took me a few goes to actually get the engine to stop, he he, those 1L engines must have been high compression to ignite the kero... it didnt cause the engine any damage... :roll: :wink: :lol:
Author:  ajsr [ Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol and G16B EFI
MacBear wrote:
Yep i am quite sure racing cars wouldnt use Ethanol if it wasnt a viable good fuel... all it takes is a bit of retuning... and ethanol is alot cleaner burning, and pollutes alot less... :wink: Yeah but your missing the point you need more of the ethanol to produce the same power and a lot more to make more power +ehanol is corrosive.
and the only reason the V8's are running it is to apper to the general publicthat they are going green

And from what i understand, Ethanol burns cooler than normal fuel, so helps keep the engine a bit cooler... :roll: Actually hotter because unless its tuned for ethanol its running lean and lean=hot
yes it burns cooler if you are running the right air fuel ratio's but that wont happen on a car tuned for petrol with out a Major retune.

When i switched to Premium, 95ron, i felt a difference, but when i recently had it retuned, i found it ran even better, so it all comes down to getting the right tuning setup... :wink:

Heres one to laugh at...
When i used to work in the bush, i was put in temp accommodation, that had a Kero hot water system, i had a 10L tin of it, i had just refilled it, when i was told i can move into the SMQ... and not wanting to wastes the kero or leave it for some other bugger to use... i decided i would put it into the tank of my 1L Sierra i had at the time, he he... it ran ok, if a little sluggish on throttle response... but the best part was when i turned the key off... the engine kept running 8O It took me a few goes to actually get the engine to stop, he he, those 1L engines must have been high compression to ignite the kero... it didnt cause the engine any damage... :roll: :wink: :lol:

if you are so sure its a great product I dare you to run your zook on I straight for a year and see how fucked your motor is after that
Im sorry macbear but I'm really getting the feeling you dont know shit about fuels and fuel ratios
Author:  atari4x4 [ Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol and G16B EFI
MacBear wrote:
when i recently had it retuned, i found it ran even better, so it all comes down to getting the right tuning setup... :wink:


how did they retune it, do you run a aftermarket ECU?
Author:  SuziBlu [ Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol and G16B EFI
ASJR,
Mate, who is saying to run on pure ethanol.

we all have opinions, and seriously, have you tried running a small percentage of ethanol in your car, tuned accordingly.

It does make a diff, major diff, I have run up to 50% ethanol, and the performance was amazing, it may have issues with earlier fuel systems, ie its non conformance with "general" fuel systems, rubber, etc, but there is no denying its power enhancement.

It will use more, but then, power is expensive. Want more power, tune to ethanol standards.
Author:  ajsr [ Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol and G16B EFI
dave where are you getting your ethanol from?
and do you have dyno results to prove a power increase on 50/50 becase unless you were running massively rich to start off with its not possible you could be making more power by going 50/50 fuel and ethanol I promise you.You are actually putting less fuel into your engine now.
people often confuse octane with power and just because something has higher octane does not mean more power.
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