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Steering wobble group discussion- Death wobbles
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Author:  zukenutter [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Steering wobble group discussion- Death wobbles
Note: my Jimny wobbles have all been fixed for some time, below is my original introduction to this thread which I'm leaving in place so you can get an appreciation of my level of frustration at the time. The wobble can be difficult to diagnose because it can be caused by different issues, read through the thread as more info has been added along the way.

I'm pretty fed up with the Wobble in both our Jimnys steering. Almost every Jimny owner I speak to has it to some degree and I think it's time that SUZUKI stepped up and admitted that there is a problem, address the issue with a fix that works for more than 6 months and cover the cost of whatever it takes.

I'm a mad Suzuki fan and don't like to give the importers/manufacturer of our little toys a hard time because they supply us with an otherwise superb truck but enough is enough, this is just wrong.

I know that there are people who will say that modifications are the cause but there are plenty of people who have the problem in their stock Jimnys, including my wife's.

Suzuki have a secret memo about a string of "fixes" but there still seem to be many people who have done them all and still have the wobble.

[hr]
Fixes that I've come across include;

- New King Pins and bearings
- New knuckle scraper seals
- adding shims to the King Pin bearings
- New wheel bearings
- New control arm bushes
- Steering Dampener kits
- Steering box adjustment
- Machining the brake discs
- Adjusting toe-in

There are probably more.
[hr]
My gripe is that Suzuki have made no effort to address the issue publicly and that there are many vehicles out there that are unsafe to be on the road. I've met owners who love their Jim but won't drive it because they don't feel safe.

I don't want to take Suzuki to court but I do want to make the problem very public. Please feel free to add comments in this thread of your wobble experiences and make sure you complete the Poll.


EDIT

Thought I'd add a bit of separation to the types of wobble.

As for the wobble, there are different types of wobble.
1. Wobble under brakes - most likely warped rotors - machine or replace
2. Random wobble, happens at unexpected times and varying conditions - worn panhard bushes or other linkage points
3. 15km/h range shimmy, usually 60-75km/h'ish - I think this is the most common and hardest to pinpoint - usually fixed by either/or/and any of the following (king pin bearings, adding shims to KP, wheel balance, toe in/out, caster angle adjustment, tyre type, wheel bearings)
Author:  Zookyliz [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny steering wobble class action
mine was almost fixed just with a steering damper, then I found out that the endgine mount nuts were missing off the bolts so effectively the engine could have been contributing. After that was fixed it was great.
Author:  royce [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny steering wobble class action
FWIF every 4wd that uses the same design front end wobbles, google Patrol Steering Shimmy, puts the Jimnys problem to shame!
Author:  zukenutter [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny steering wobble class action
Each time I've added a fix it's been good for a while then gradually creeps back when you're not paying attention.

Royce, yeah I've heard about the Patrols as well but I don't care about Nissans :-)

My aim with this thread is to gather the experiences of as many owners of Jimnys as possible. Not sure what to do with the info yet but can't do anything without it.

Zookyliz - Love that helmet
Author:  hutch [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny steering wobble class action
I dont have a jimny, but I agree, you should go for it.
I will outline briefly an issue I had with Nissan over rims to help you.

I had an issue with the older style GU rims cracking, at first 1 then a second and finally a third. On forums all throughout australaia it was a well known manufacturing fault. I relayed this info to Nissan, they shrugged their shoulders and said "meh".

That riled me up! I called the section that looks after ADR Australian design Rules for tyres. no help, but the issue was recorded.

Nissan forced me to only contact my local dealership. To the credit of the dealership they were helpful but ultimatley could not make a decision.

After to-ing and fro-ing for about 3 weeks I had had enough. I prepared a letter to a current affair oulting the dangers of the rims and the fact that easter was just around the corner. At the same time I began an unsafe product cliam with the office of fair trading. OFT was really keen to push this through.

Armed with both bits of info I headed back to the Nissan dealership and we faxed the info to head office.

I left Nissan, ten mins later I had a call on my mobile, they had reviewed my case and were prepared to replace all 6 rims so long as I did not follow through on the media or office of fair trading.
Author:  zukenutter [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny steering wobble class action
Hutch, some great follow-ups there and kudos for scoring 6 rims. My intention is a public outcome so all Jimny owners love to drive there car and promote the model to ensure the future of live axle SWB 4WDs within the Suzuki brand.
Author:  BertZook [ Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny steering wobble class action
donno if Im un-sensitive or something like that, but I haven't felt any big wobble in my stock Jim.

I drive from Byron Bay to Gold Coast almost every week, and rather than the old suspension need a change I dont feel anything weird... I do have some alignment issues, the car goes to the left.... I try to fix it once but I think the guy of the shop just saw me like a tourist and didnt do shit bout it, and giveme some lame excuses bout why it couldnt be fix :evil:

but no sorry I dnt have any wobble..... hopefully I dnt have it when I put my lift on it

sorry :?
Author:  Ben_Sierra [ Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny steering wobble class action
Zookyliz wrote:
mine was almost fixed just with a steering damper, then I found out that the endgine mount nuts were missing off the bolts so effectively the engine could have been contributing. After that was fixed it was great.


The trouble is steering dampeners just tend to mask the underlying problem rather than actually fix anything...
Author:  appsie [ Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny steering wobble class action
x2 with royce.My uncles patrol on 35 simexes is just plain scary when it gets thwe wobbles :lol: :lol:
Author:  royce [ Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny steering wobble class action
Ben_Sierra wrote:
Zookyliz wrote:
mine was almost fixed just with a steering damper, then I found out that the endgine mount nuts were missing off the bolts so effectively the engine could have been contributing. After that was fixed it was great.


The trouble is steering dampeners just tend to mask the underlying problem rather than actually fix anything...


Fucking Bullshit!!!!

Whats the underlying problem then? whats the cause of this problem? then what is the action to remedy the problem?

You cant answer cause you dont know, Suzuki dont know, nobody fucking well knows other than its caused a bit by harmonics setup in the right combination of events, one being road surface that youll never be able to control so never be able to 100% eliminate.

Saying they mask a problem is like saying dampers on the suspension are jsut masking incorrect spring rate, which they are but how will you ever get the correct spring rate when there are so many variables involved, you cant

Steering dampers play a real part, they alter the harmonic point of the front end and arrest the harmonic from accelerating before it takes hold, I could feel it starting on my sierra then going away, because its unable to shake at the frequency it wants to build energy

I would like to hear of anyone who has fitted a decent damper between the draglink between the 2 swivel hubs and the diff housing still have a wobble problem, not the chassis to the pitman arm, not the chassis to the draglink, not the panhard rod and draglink, none of these points are moving against easch other during a wobble

I have already deleted posts from this thread, Zukenutter wants to keep to the facts, lets all try jsut once to do that in a thread
Author:  Ben_Sierra [ Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny steering wobble class action
royce wrote:
Ben_Sierra wrote:
Zookyliz wrote:
mine was almost fixed just with a steering damper, then I found out that the endgine mount nuts were missing off the bolts so effectively the engine could have been contributing. After that was fixed it was great.


The trouble is steering dampeners just tend to mask the underlying problem rather than actually fix anything...


Fucking Bullshit!!!!

Whats the underlying problem then? whats the cause of this problem? then what is the action to remedy the problem?

You cant answer cause you dont know, Suzuki dont know, nobody fucking well knows other than its caused a bit by harmonics setup in the right combination of events, one being road surface that youll never be able to control so never be able to 100% eliminate.

Saying they mask a problem is like saying dampers on the suspension are jsut masking incorrect spring rate, which they are but how will you ever get the correct spring rate when there are so many variables involved, you cant

Steering dampers play a real part, they alter the harmonic point of the front end and arrest the harmonic from accelerating before it takes hold, I could feel it starting on my sierra then going away, because its unable to shake at the frequency it wants to build energy

I would like to hear of anyone who has fitted a decent damper between the draglink between the 2 swivel hubs and the diff housing still have a wobble problem, not the chassis to the pitman arm, not the chassis to the draglink, not the panhard rod and draglink, none of these points are moving against easch other during a wobble

I have already deleted posts from this thread, Zukenutter wants to keep to the facts, lets all try jsut once to do that in a thread


I agree that it may just be a problem with the setup of the car and that not much can be done about it (especially with it being such a common problem with the Jimny), but on the other hand (and this is not just Jimny's but in general) the wobble's can be caused by a worn/failed part and this will be masked by the dampener.

Anyway, I've had my say so I'll shut up now...
Author:  ellis [ Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny steering wobble class action
on ours the brakes need Machining due to the car gets the wobbles under heavy braking and u can feel the brake pulseing and we got the wobbles when we pu tslightly over sized tyres on but the rtc fixed that
Author:  zukenutter [ Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny steering wobble class action
Maybe I've owned one for long enough (10 years in January bought new) to have experienced the full gamut of this phenomenon. There have been times in my Jim's life that I could have sold it wobble free so anyone who has a 2nd hand Jim may be yet to experience the wobble.

Here's a time line (sort of) of my wobble experience.
2001.01 - New Jim, all's good
2001.06 - New Bridgestone Dueler ATs 215/80R15 / 40mm lift -- no wobble
2002.11 - New BFG ATs 235/75R15 -- slight wobble
2003.01 - Steering damper fitted -- no wobble
2002.02 - 20mm spring spacers added -- slight wobble
2002.06 - Castor correction bushes installed -- no wobble
2007.06 - 215/75R15 BFG MTs -- no wobble

Jim was great for a long time. Of course with this Jimny, with all the mods I've always been happy (sort of) to find my own way through as opposed to blame Suzuki, although I did feel that it was a bit weak that the Jim seemingly had trouble coping with 235s and a 60mm lift.

In the last few years I've felt the need for a bit more height and some 235s again. Sadly the wobble came out of hiding.
2008.0 - Replaced 20mm spring spacers with 50mm -- no wobble
2008.8 - Used 15x7 rims with 235/75R15 Federal Couragia MTs -- Wobble started after a month of running this

And got to the point where it was so uncontrollable I'd have to stop. Still occurred intermittently though, at the time it was right on 60km/hr so I had to speed all the time to avoid getting the wobble
2009.09 - Installed new King Pin bearings and steering knuckle seal/scraper kit -- No more wobble for about 6 weeks and then returned
2009.10 - Added shims to the KP bearings to add friction to the bearing -- No wobble and best steering feel the Jim ever had
2009.11 - Swapped to new springs with smaller spacers but still same overall lift -- Wobble returned over the next week
2009.11 - Added more shims to the KP bearings to add friction to the bearing -- No more wobble, drove beautifully as well
2010.03 - After a couple of trail days -- Wobble returned
2010.04 - new shock bushes, steer damper -- No wobble
2010.05 - After a couple of trail days -- Wobble returned
2010.05 - Replaced the Panhard rod bushes and rear control arm bushes -- No wobble
2010.08 - The wobble is returning.

I'll reiterate at this point that with my Jimny I accept that it's modified and this is just what you should expect when changing the factory specs. Where I really get peeved off is when my wife's Jim, which is totally stock and only has 55,000km, has the wobble and has had from very early on in its' life. No way should a new car have this sort of issue. Suzuki, not the dealer, came to the party with their listed "secret" fix at the time of installing a damper kit which helped greatly but never totally got rid of the problem and it was such a fight just to get that far that I couldn't be bothered chasing it any further at that time.

By the way the dates above are very rough from my ageing memory
Author:  Reubs [ Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny steering wobble group action
Hey Zukenutter,

Just an observation: I notice you don't mention ever having the front control arm bushes replaced - only the rear replaced.

From my experiences on coily Sierras the rear ones split first but the fronts aren't far behind. I'd imagine they'd be stuffed after 10 1/2 years (mine were after 10-12 years on both of my coily Sierras). Could that be the cause of your drama (if you've replaced everything else)?

How are the control arm bushes in your stocker?
Author:  BlueSuzy [ Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny steering wobble group action
Reubs wrote:
Hey Zukenutter,

Just an observation: I notice you don't mention ever having the front control arm bushes replaced - only the rear replaced.

From my experiences on coily Sierras the rear ones split first but the fronts aren't far behind. I'd imagine they'd be stuffed after 10 1/2 years (mine were after 10-12 years on both of my coily Sierras). Could that be the cause of your drama (if you've replaced everything else)?

How are the control arm bushes in your stocker?


Read. 2002.06 - Castor correction bushes installed -- no wobble

But that is 8 years ago..
Author:  royce [ Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny steering wobble group action
how bad a wobble are we talking here? to my mind the death wobbles are when it starts you must stop quickly and immediatley, you dont even have time to pull over, any that go away by changing speed or direction are a shimmy

I also note withteh kingpin shims, have you ever measured steering resistance like you are supposed to with sierras?
Author:  hermsie62 [ Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny steering wobble group action
When I first got my Coopers I found that every few months I had to get the wheels aligned as I was getting a little bit of shaking thru the steering wheel but now that I have done a few KMs on them I don't suffer that any more which means as the tyres were wearing they affected the balance.
Have been thinking of getting a steering damper but have been told by a couple of places, including Peddlers Suspension that my Jimny with its mild 40mm lift does not really need it. Would have thought OME would have brought one out for their kits. What are your guys thoughts on this. And does a damper make turning more stiffer.
Paul
Author:  dm90 [ Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny steering wobble group action
mine occurred at 70kmph when i bought it, standard suspension and lift, still occurred after lift and bigger tyres,

the other day i was driving along the freeway and a jimny went past, his front tyre was shaking so badly i thought it was buckled or missing wheel nuts or something. i was just about to flash him and tell him to pull over and check it but looked at my speedo first. it was in the prime speed range of 70 - 80 km.

it was bloody scary to see it from the outside of the car and know that thats what your jim looks like when you feel it.
Author:  joeblow [ Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny steering wobble group action
a lot of the problem is the front diff........it flexes like a bastard! when a jimny diff is jacked from the centre you can actually see the camber change.....put it back on the ground and once again....the camber will change. when you try to make sure everything on the jimny front is withing spec.....the front diff housing will throw you a curve ball. until you stop the housing from flexing you'll just be chasing your tale.


if you do plan a group action you all better put standard wheels and tyres on, as well as make sure the vehicle is still within it's gvm.


myself and kenn have taken suzuki to court and won big time.....need a hand let me know.....they don't like us :wink:
Author:  Built4thrashing [ Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny steering wobble group action
joeblow wrote:


myself and kenn have taken suzuki to court and won big time.....need a hand let me know.....they don't like us :wink:



WTF did you do ? we need details of this.
Author:  joeblow [ Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny steering wobble group action
jimny's blowing rear diffs.....kenn got sick of it after the 3rd time.
Author:  wildcard1983 [ Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny steering wobble group action
how we could obtain this "Secret List" of fixes from SUZUKI, is anyone chummy with a Suzuki dealer/mechanic
Author:  smiffkid [ Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny steering wobble group action
yea fixed mine buy puttinga steering dampner on it.
then its started again when the original tires went bald, now its on 31s it doesnt vibrate
Author:  steak_knife [ Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny steering wobble group action
Not much "Secret" about it, adjust king pin's drag, make sure everything's tight, check leading arm rear bush, fit steering damper....
Author:  jonno_racing [ Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny steering wobble group action
i had them in my coily (same set up) fitted rtc dampener.. no more issue
Author:  vermin [ Mon Dec 06, 2010 3:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny steering wobble group action
Mine also does it at 70 and disappears around 80.

I know of a girl here who has a stock one and hers does it as well.
Author:  jimbo_jones [ Mon Dec 06, 2010 3:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny steering wobble group action
I voted yes I don't own a jimny but fix this problem on a customers one by machining disc's
Author:  steak_knife [ Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny steering wobble group action
jimbo_jones wrote:
I voted yes I don't own a jimny but fix this problem on a customers one by machining disc's


OOOoooooo, you just told a secret fix!!! :roll:
Author:  alien [ Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny steering wobble group action
was it in here or somewhere else i saw adjustable kingpins for jimny?
Author:  steak_knife [ Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jimny steering wobble group action
alien wrote:
was it in here or somewhere else i saw adjustable kingpins for jimny?


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