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AW4 auto, TCM Inputs
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Author:  mnemonix [ Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:13 pm ]
Post subject:  AW4 auto, TCM Inputs
Brainstorm with me guys.
I want to ditch my 5speed for an auto, and the AW4 seems to fit the bill.
Perfect behind my G16, overdrive, good ratio's and bulletproof.

I'll grab an output adapter off Joe to mate it to the sierra transfer via a shortened jackshaft, tenderise the tunnel and redo the transfer case mounts for strength.
The maruti cross member should have sufficient clearance.

However I run an aftermarket ECU (Adaptronic). I've read that this complicates things.

The unknown electrical side of things is where I trip over..
I believe I the AW4 uses a standalone Transmission Control Module. Correct?

I'm thinking I can provide most of the inputs this TCM needs.
The 2 unknown quantities are:

- Throttle Position (Tap into factory TPS, or use Adaptronic Aux Out/TPS). TCM expects "Battery V+ x .95 at idle", "Battery V+ x .39 at WOT".

- Vehicle Speed Sensor (Fit Vitara VSS to sierra dash cluster). Measure resistance, 4 pulses per rotation of speedo cable.


Can anyone see a problem with the above?
Does the vitara ECU "process" the VSS signal so the TCM sees something different to the raw signal generated? I'm hoping I can just add a vitara VSS to my cluster to provide this signal to the TCM.
Author:  JrZook [ Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AW4 auto, TCM Inputs
mnemonix wrote:
Brainstorm with me guys.
I want to ditch my 5speed for an auto, and the AW4 seems to fit the bill.
Perfect behind my G16, overdrive, good ratio's and bulletproof.

I'll grab an output adapter off Joe to mate it to the sierra transfer via a shortened jackshaft, tenderise the tunnel and redo the transfer case mounts for strength.
The maruti cross member should have sufficient clearance.

However I run an aftermarket ECU (Adaptronic). I've read that this complicates things.

The unknown electrical side of things is where I trip over..
I believe I the AW4 uses a standalone Transmission Control Module. Correct?

I'm thinking I can provide most of the inputs this TCM needs.
The 2 unknown quantities are:

- Throttle Position (Tap into factory TPS, or use Adaptronic Aux Out/TPS). TCM expects "Battery V+ x .95 at idle", "Battery V+ x .39 at WOT".

- Vehicle Speed Sensor (Fit Vitara VSS to sierra dash cluster). Measure resistance, 4 pulses per rotation of speedo cable.


Can anyone see a problem with the above?
Does the vitara ECU "process" the VSS signal so the TCM sees something different to the raw signal generated? I'm hoping I can just add a vitara VSS to my cluster to provide this signal to the TCM.


That one has me stumped!! How are you going to get above battery V as that's the highest electrical potential in the vehicle :?

Yes the AW4 runs a standalone controller as far as I know and needs a measure of speed and engine load to control the gear switch points. Don't know what the ECU does with the VSS signal, it may even give a voltage out corresponding to the speed.

If anyone has a stock system running in Briz I wouldn't mind scoping it out.
Author:  Fatzook [ Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AW4 auto, TCM Inputs
JrZook wrote:
If anyone has a stock system running in Briz I wouldn't mind scoping it out.


Would matts maruti work?
Author:  joeblow [ Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AW4 auto, TCM Inputs
The only thing that has stopped the 4 speed from being run with any engine is the TPS.....sort of.

It goes into the engine ecu as a voltage signal, but is then converted in the engine ecu to a duty cycle and then sent to the trans ecu. Sort out how to do this and that auto can be adapted to any engine.
Author:  royce [ Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AW4 auto, TCM Inputs
JrZook wrote:
mnemonix wrote:
Brainstorm with me guys.
I want to ditch my 5speed for an auto, and the AW4 seems to fit the bill.
Perfect behind my G16, overdrive, good ratio's and bulletproof.

I'll grab an output adapter off Joe to mate it to the sierra transfer via a shortened jackshaft, tenderise the tunnel and redo the transfer case mounts for strength.
The maruti cross member should have sufficient clearance.

However I run an aftermarket ECU (Adaptronic). I've read that this complicates things.

The unknown electrical side of things is where I trip over..
I believe I the AW4 uses a standalone Transmission Control Module. Correct?

I'm thinking I can provide most of the inputs this TCM needs.
The 2 unknown quantities are:

- Throttle Position (Tap into factory TPS, or use Adaptronic Aux Out/TPS). TCM expects "Battery V+ x .95 at idle", "Battery V+ x .39 at WOT".

- Vehicle Speed Sensor (Fit Vitara VSS to sierra dash cluster). Measure resistance, 4 pulses per rotation of speedo cable.


Can anyone see a problem with the above?
Does the vitara ECU "process" the VSS signal so the TCM sees something different to the raw signal generated? I'm hoping I can just add a vitara VSS to my cluster to provide this signal to the TCM.


That one has me stumped!! How are you going to get above battery V as that's the highest electrical potential in the vehicle :?

Yes the AW4 runs a standalone controller as far as I know and needs a measure of speed and engine load to control the gear switch points. Don't know what the ECU does with the VSS signal, it may even give a voltage out corresponding to the speed.

If anyone has a stock system running in Briz I wouldn't mind scoping it out.


How can you make an ECU from scratch and not know that multiply by a decimal makes the number lower :)
Author:  JrZook [ Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AW4 auto, TCM Inputs
Fatzook wrote:
JrZook wrote:
If anyone has a stock system running in Briz I wouldn't mind scoping it out.


Would matts maruti work?


YEP!
Author:  Fatzook [ Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AW4 auto, TCM Inputs
royce wrote:
JrZook wrote:
mnemonix wrote:
Brainstorm with me guys.
I want to ditch my 5speed for an auto, and the AW4 seems to fit the bill.
Perfect behind my G16, overdrive, good ratio's and bulletproof.

I'll grab an output adapter off Joe to mate it to the sierra transfer via a shortened jackshaft, tenderise the tunnel and redo the transfer case mounts for strength.
The maruti cross member should have sufficient clearance.

However I run an aftermarket ECU (Adaptronic). I've read that this complicates things.

The unknown electrical side of things is where I trip over..
I believe I the AW4 uses a standalone Transmission Control Module. Correct?

I'm thinking I can provide most of the inputs this TCM needs.
The 2 unknown quantities are:

- Throttle Position (Tap into factory TPS, or use Adaptronic Aux Out/TPS). TCM expects "Battery V+ x .95 at idle", "Battery V+ x .39 at WOT".

- Vehicle Speed Sensor (Fit Vitara VSS to sierra dash cluster). Measure resistance, 4 pulses per rotation of speedo cable.


Can anyone see a problem with the above?
Does the vitara ECU "process" the VSS signal so the TCM sees something different to the raw signal generated? I'm hoping I can just add a vitara VSS to my cluster to provide this signal to the TCM.


That one has me stumped!! How are you going to get above battery V as that's the highest electrical potential in the vehicle :?

Yes the AW4 runs a standalone controller as far as I know and needs a measure of speed and engine load to control the gear switch points. Don't know what the ECU does with the VSS signal, it may even give a voltage out corresponding to the speed.

If anyone has a stock system running in Briz I wouldn't mind scoping it out.


How can you make an ECU from scratch and not know that multiply by a decimal makes the number lower :)


He wasn't wearing his cowboy hat. Thats where his smarts are :wink:
Author:  JrZook [ Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AW4 auto, TCM Inputs
royce wrote:
JrZook wrote:
mnemonix wrote:
Brainstorm with me guys.
I want to ditch my 5speed for an auto, and the AW4 seems to fit the bill.
Perfect behind my G16, overdrive, good ratio's and bulletproof.

I'll grab an output adapter off Joe to mate it to the sierra transfer via a shortened jackshaft, tenderise the tunnel and redo the transfer case mounts for strength.
The maruti cross member should have sufficient clearance.

However I run an aftermarket ECU (Adaptronic). I've read that this complicates things.

The unknown electrical side of things is where I trip over..
I believe I the AW4 uses a standalone Transmission Control Module. Correct?

I'm thinking I can provide most of the inputs this TCM needs.
The 2 unknown quantities are:

- Throttle Position (Tap into factory TPS, or use Adaptronic Aux Out/TPS). TCM expects "Battery V+ x .95 at idle", "Battery V+ x .39 at WOT".

- Vehicle Speed Sensor (Fit Vitara VSS to sierra dash cluster). Measure resistance, 4 pulses per rotation of speedo cable.


Can anyone see a problem with the above?
Does the vitara ECU "process" the VSS signal so the TCM sees something different to the raw signal generated? I'm hoping I can just add a vitara VSS to my cluster to provide this signal to the TCM.


That one has me stumped!! How are you going to get above battery V as that's the highest electrical potential in the vehicle :?

Yes the AW4 runs a standalone controller as far as I know and needs a measure of speed and engine load to control the gear switch points. Don't know what the ECU does with the VSS signal, it may even give a voltage out corresponding to the speed.

If anyone has a stock system running in Briz I wouldn't mind scoping it out.


How can you make an ECU from scratch and not know that multiply by a decimal makes the number lower :)


Well that would make a lot more sense then (brain is flooded with fuel calc variables). I never state battery voltage as battery V + only battery V.
So in that case we have 0.95*BatteryV to 0.39*BatteryV at WOT
Author:  JrZook [ Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AW4 auto, TCM Inputs
joeblow wrote:
The only thing that has stopped the 4 speed from being run with any engine is the TPS.....sort of.

It goes into the engine ecu as a voltage signal, but is then converted in the engine ecu to a duty cycle and then sent to the trans ecu. Sort out how to do this and that auto can be adapted to any engine.


Hurmm so if that's the case then .39-0.95Battery voltage must be the duty cycle measure?

Mr Fatz:

When can I have a look at Matt's? Oh and check your pms! :lol:
Author:  mnemonix [ Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AW4 auto, TCM Inputs
I'll do some more reading at work tonight and see what I can find about the factory ecus tps output..

JrZook: if you get a chance sometime to scope a stock system I'd appreciate the feedback.
Author:  Brett [ Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AW4 auto, TCM Inputs
have at look in the link in here

http://www.auszookers.com/index.php?nam ... ic&t=23021

no inputs to worry about
Author:  joeblow [ Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AW4 auto, TCM Inputs
Brett wrote:
have at look in the link in here

http://www.auszookers.com/index.php?nam ... ic&t=23021

no inputs to worry about


As far as I am concerned....beats the whole point of running a lovely 4 speed auto.
Author:  mnemonix [ Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AW4 auto, TCM Inputs
If that operates how I believe, I tend to agree with Joe.
The idea of the 4speed automatic is... it's fully automatic.

Whack it in D-for deadly, grab your chai latte decaf in your now spare hand, and drive.


Turns out my mates wifes GV runs a 4 speed auto. I'll be heading over to suss the TCM out this weekend if I get a chance.
Author:  joeblow [ Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AW4 auto, TCM Inputs
mnemonix wrote:
If that operates how I believe, I tend to agree with Joe.
The idea of the 4speed automatic is... it's fully automatic.

Whack it in D-for deadly, grab your chai latte decaf in your now spare hand, and drive.


Turns out my mates wifes GV runs a 4 speed auto. I'll be heading over to suss the TCM out this weekend if I get a chance.


Don't forget, GV TCM is intergrated to the ECM.
Author:  mnemonix [ Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AW4 auto, TCM Inputs
Cheers mate.
I had forgotten, but found out via google just after I posted.

There is a wealth of information available on the AW4, especially if you look at 03-72L variants. However doc's on the specifics of the TCM are hard to find.
Author:  Brett [ Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AW4 auto, TCM Inputs
It would just shift like a trimatic and use vac load , its not a manualised box
Author:  JrZook [ Sat Jun 25, 2011 1:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AW4 auto, TCM Inputs
mnemonix wrote:
Cheers mate.
I had forgotten, but found out via google just after I posted.

There is a wealth of information available on the AW4, especially if you look at 03-72L variants. However doc's on the specifics of the TCM are hard to find.


Yea you can say that again!
Author:  mnemonix [ Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AW4 auto, TCM Inputs
The nearest info I can find isn't specifically for the AW4, it's for other Aisin auto's used in Toyotas. However I've previously seen similar info about the AW4 (and lost the link).

Pages 3-5 at this link http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h16.pdf refer to how the ECU converts the TPS voltage output into one of 8 signals to represent throttle butterfly angle.

Section 7B1 of the vitara workshop manual covers the shift patterns in regards to vehicle speed and throttle valve angle.

I'm still no closer in my question for feeding a signal to the TCM from my ecu though.
Author:  JrZook [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AW4 auto, TCM Inputs
mnemonix wrote:
The nearest info I can find isn't specifically for the AW4, it's for other Aisin auto's used in Toyotas. However I've previously seen similar info about the AW4 (and lost the link).


Pages 3-5 at this link http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h16.pdf refer to how the ECU converts the TPS voltage output into one of 8 signals to represent throttle butterfly angle.

Section 7B1 of the vitara workshop manual covers the shift patterns in regards to vehicle speed and throttle valve angle.

I'm still no closer in my question for feeding a signal to the TCM from my ecu though.


I got it!! Its reflected binary code!! Grey code! Its where successive numbers vary by 1 bit value, used to try and stop noise and errors.

So in Grey code the 3 bit outputs will be:

0 000
1 001
2 011
3 010
4 110
5 111
6 101
7 100

If that's in fact what the TCM required from the TPS I should be able to make up an encoder that sits between the TPS and TCM if you have no other solution. 8)
Author:  mnemonix [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AW4 auto, TCM Inputs
Thats witchcraft to me.
Might definately be interested in getting you to do a cashie if no other solution presents itself.

The best option I can see for now is another toyota fix designed for the A340. On paper it looks like a brilliant customisable solution, but haven't heard any first hand reports about it.
http://www.latentsolutions.com/suprastickuv.html
Author:  JrZook [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AW4 auto, TCM Inputs
JrZook wrote:
So in Grey code the 3 bit outputs will be:

0 000
1 001
2 011
3 010
4 110
5 111
6 101
7 100



Actually a slight correction as the shaded parts in that link are 0V and clear are 5V its actually inverted grey code. So the output would be:

0 111
1 110
2 100
3 101
4 001
5 000
6 010
7 011

I am planning to make up a customizable auto controller to suit the AW4 but I need to scope one out first.
Author:  Rhinoman [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AW4 auto, TCM Inputs
Autos are very rare over here, is the TCM that you refer to something like this one?

http://www.rhinopower.org/ECUs/TCM_57B40/TCM_57B40.html
Author:  JrZook [ Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AW4 auto, TCM Inputs
JrZook wrote:
JrZook wrote:
So in Grey code the 3 bit outputs will be:

0 000
1 001
2 011
3 010
4 110
5 111
6 101
7 100



Actually a slight correction as the shaded parts in that link are 0V and clear are 5V its actually inverted grey code. So the output would be:

0 111
1 110
2 100
3 101
4 001
5 000
6 010
7 011

I am planning to make up a customizable auto controller to suit the AW4 but I need to scope one out first.


Well if indeed that is how the TPS -> TCM works I believe I have got a solution to try out on a vehicle once I bench test it first.
Author:  mnemonix [ Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AW4 auto, TCM Inputs
Sensational. I'm interested to know how it goes.
What is involved in testing the tps/ecu/tcm to verify that it is grey code like you believe?
Author:  JrZook [ Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AW4 auto, TCM Inputs
I Think ill just have to go for a drive in an auto and just probe the L1-L3 inputs with a multimeter at varying throttle percentages. Just to clarify if the output is that grey code.
Author:  JrZook [ Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AW4 auto, TCM Inputs
joeblow wrote:
The only thing that has stopped the 4 speed from being run with any engine is the TPS


Just digging this up.

I did probe out an auto vit prior to it being wrecked as well as my own ECU
As a result I have a prototype solution on my bench that closely emulates the output of the TPS from the ECU to the TCM. The TCM in Suzuki models require the TPS to be converted into a PWM signal with varying duty cycle inversely proportional to the throttle opening as opposed to the gray code as I previously thought which is actually used in Toyota variants.

Now I just need to test it on a working AW4 car to make sure it works properly and doesn't throw any errors. It is also self calibrating in which you just connect it up to any TPS configuration (provided the voltage increases with increasing throttle opening) and mash the accelerator to WOT the first time its installed and powered.

Dan
Author:  joeblow [ Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AW4 auto, TCM Inputs
That would be awesome. Good work.
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AW4 auto, TCM Inputs
Armsup JrZook!
Author:  mnemonix [ Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AW4 auto, TCM Inputs
armsup JrZook indeed!
So, does anyone with an AW4 box'd zook want to be the guinea pig for the box of black magic?
It seems everyone who was on the original Want-List (myself included) has their zook in a million pieces so the project has stalled.
Author:  Fatzook [ Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AW4 auto, TCM Inputs
Yep. Bring it over here.
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