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spontaneous loss of steering what should i be checking?
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Author:  Santos [ Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:34 pm ]
Post subject:  spontaneous loss of steering what should i be checking?
Extremely weird thing happened to me tonight driving home in the wet from the city down Spit Rd.

Came round the inside of a downhill bend and suddenly lost all traction and the steering was extremely spongy. Fortunately no real traffic (one other car and moped that slowed the hell down once i was fishtailing it down 1 and half lanes and temporaly mounted the middle island almost heading for oncoming traffic :? ) I'm guessing i was hydroplaning.

Once i regained control i just meekly crossed over to the left lane and crawled down with engine braking to the bottom and looked over the car. (then drove a bit around the carpark to see if i could induce it again I've done the same bend a hundred times at higher speeds. This time i was just in 2wd but i think most other times i've done it in the rain i have had 4wd engaged. my tyres have reasonable amount tread. Put it into 4wd to get back up out the hill and switched to 2wd.

The particular point in the bend i was i think gets most of the run off from all three lanes further up, maybe i just hit a really big oil slick?

So if anyone has an idea of what i should be looking over in the morning that would be appreciated.

Also whats the technical term for when you 'jink' the steering wheel in the opposite direction you want to turn so that sort of slide into the direction you want tto turn. (don't know if i described it properly)
Author:  MrRocky [ Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: spontaneous loss of steering what should i be checking?
oil ? maybe the box is rooted ?
Author:  stockman [ Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: spontaneous loss of steering what should i be checking?
Oversteer.

Sound like you lost it :lol:

After running up the curb, check for tyre damage and check the pressures. Also check the steering components and maybe the wheel alignment.
Author:  Damo [ Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: spontaneous loss of steering what should i be checking?
I would say oil. But the spongy thing has be confused, check your steering rag joint just in case.

The 'jink' thing is called "Scandinavian flick"
Author:  Santos [ Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: spontaneous loss of steering what should i be checking?
Damo wrote:
I would say oil. But the spongy thing has be confused, check your steering rag joint just in case.

The 'jink' thing is called "Scandinavian flick"


lol, i think it has another name which is errr... less 'slangy'

yeah the spongyness had me a little suprised midway through the ordeal, i was starting to get a little concerned that i had a broken link in the steering, was trying to decide if i should stick to the engine braking or start steadily engaging the foot brake. From memory it sort of came back to normal-ish around the time i was negotiating the island. It felt 100% normal the rest of the way home.
Author:  christover1 [ Thu Sep 08, 2011 1:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: spontaneous loss of steering what should i be checking?
black ice or tree sap on wet road.

Can be a fuel leak, too, drips on wet rd making it very slippery
Author:  Teracis [ Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: spontaneous loss of steering what should i be checking?
Santos wrote:
Damo wrote:
I would say oil. But the spongy thing has be confused, check your steering rag joint just in case.

The 'jink' thing is called "Scandinavian flick"


lol, i think it has another name which is errr... less 'slangy'

yeah the spongyness had me a little suprised midway through the ordeal, i was starting to get a little concerned that i had a broken link in the steering, was trying to decide if i should stick to the engine braking or start steadily engaging the foot brake. From memory it sort of came back to normal-ish around the time i was negotiating the island. It felt 100% normal the rest of the way home.


Could the sponginess have been felt because your wheels were sliding? Or was it not a four wheel slide?
Author:  squibby [ Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: spontaneous loss of steering what should i be checking?
Easy, you were just driving beyond the capabilities of your vehicle/skill combination. Slow down and take it steady in wet. Lucky you didn't run into anyone. You should be checking your driving manner. If you can't adjust that then get a better handling car or some better road biased tyres.
Author:  Santos [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: spontaneous loss of steering what should i be checking?
squibby wrote:
Easy, you were just driving beyond the capabilities of your vehicle/skill combination. Slow down and take it steady in wet. Lucky you didn't run into anyone. You should be checking your driving manner. If you can't adjust that then get a better handling car or some better road biased tyres.


8 years owning the vehicle, 8 years of driving that stretch of road in all conditions, i'm quite familiar with how my vehicle handles, 1st time its happened, the tyres are stock profile H/T, the suspension and shocks is OME/dakkar less than 60000kms old, i was doing approximately 35-40kms around the bend, comfortably held higher speeds than that.

Its easy to write it off as driving beyond the vehicle/skill combination. It just might be a component failure or exceptional circumstances.
Author:  Santos [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: spontaneous loss of steering what should i be checking?
Teracis wrote:
Could the sponginess have been felt because your wheels were sliding? Or was it not a four wheel slide?


Maybe, never hydroplaned down a slope before :lol:

Christopher wrote:
black ice or tree sap on wet road.

Can be a fuel leak, too, drips on wet rd making it very slippery


In sydney, mosman to manly ... totally forgot to write that, did give me an idea to post up this link, it doesn't really show steepness, if you draw a imaginary line between no.221 and no.4 across the rd it would be about there, i was back in control by the end of the bend.. pretty short distance

Spit rd, head north, lost it on the inside of the right bend after ida ave

my friend rode through the same bend 10 minutes or so later on a 125cc scooter.. i'll have to ask her which lane she was on :lol:
Author:  atari4x4 [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: spontaneous loss of steering what should i be checking?
i'd say you just understeered a bit on the wet road as it aquaplaned a bit then you got youself into a big tank slapper trying to correct it.

there is a simple fix for this & it is to drive to the conditions & don't let you ambitions out weigh you ability.

if you're concerned about something not being right, get under it & inspect all the steering from the biscuit in the steering shaft, right down to the the tie rod ends at the wheels, the other option is to take it to pedders for the 14 point safety check, but they'll just tell you everything is stuffed & needs replaced.... don't let them put a spanner on the car, use that report as a guide to what could be the problem if any.

i snapped a tie rod last weekend off road & if it had happened on the open road it could have been a serious crash or a fatality. 8O
Author:  Santos [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: spontaneous loss of steering what should i be checking?
man i love google maps... check out the street level photo of the bend.

About here

Thanks Atari, i'll be looking at it all this afternoon when things dry up a bit
Author:  atari4x4 [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: spontaneous loss of steering what should i be checking?
thats a sweet looking set of corners.

IMO you should have grabbed the handbrake & dumped it back in second dialing a heap of opposite lock on & drifted through the corner looking out the passenger side window like you were what's his name from the fast furious movies. :lol:

Oh hang on it's a Sierra, just ignore all that.... :oops:
Author:  squibby [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: spontaneous loss of steering what should i be checking?
Santos wrote:
...This time i was just in 2wd but i think most other times i've done it in the rain i have had 4wd engaged. my tyres have reasonable amount tread. Put it into 4wd to get back up out the hill and switched to 2wd...


This says it all. You may have been driving for 8 years, (most people have driven for longer then that by the way, myself included) If you drive around with 4x4 centre diff locked on the black top you need to read up a bit more on 4x4's. I think you are getting confused with All wheel drive.
Author:  Santos [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: spontaneous loss of steering what should i be checking?
atari4x4 wrote:
thats a sweet looking set of corners.

IMO you should have grabbed the handbrake & dumped it back in second dialing a heap of opposite lock on & drifted through the corner looking out the passenger side window like you were what's his name from the fast furious movies. :lol:

Oh hang on it's a Sierra, just ignore all that.... :oops:


Funny you should say that, there is a speed camera further down, i always thought it would be awesome to dress up in a ninja outfit and get the a doing 65kms+ sideways drifting through the speed camera. Imagine the photo with no number plates... justa a side on shot of the car


Squibby, if you are telling me that having high range 4wd on wet asphalt would not of increased my traction at all then i will rest easy. 8 years owning and driving this car... not 8 years total road experience :)
Author:  squibby [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: spontaneous loss of steering what should i be checking?
[quote="Santos]Squibby, if you are telling me that having high range 4wd on wet asphalt would not of increased my traction at all then i will rest easy. 8 years owning and driving this car... not 8 years total road experience :)[/quote]

Thanks for making me giggle anyway. You sir are going to put your zook in a ditch one day if you don't learn any lessons from your little episode. and yes, driving around with a centre locked diff is going to give you unpredictable handling. leave it in 2WD on tarmac please because I don't want to be coming the other way when you stack it. locked diffs are for offroad only on any light vehicle. I am of the supspicion that your steering is in good order, and you just can't drive very well. It's be good for you to get it checked over anyway and i hope you do. I'll still go wheelingof road with you anyday, and I'll buy you a beer if ever we meet on any zook outings.
Author:  JrZook [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: spontaneous loss of steering what should i be checking?
squibby wrote:
[quote="Santos]Squibby, if you are telling me that having high range 4wd on wet asphalt would not of increased my traction at all then i will rest easy. 8 years owning and driving this car... not 8 years total road experience :)


Thanks for making me giggle anyway. You sir are going to put your zook in a ditch one day if you don't learn any lessons from your little episode. and yes, driving around with a centre locked diff is going to give you unpredictable handling. leave it in 2WD on tarmac please because I don't want to be coming the other way when you stack it. locked diffs are for offroad only on any light vehicle. I am of the supspicion that your steering is in good order, and you just can't drive very well. It's be good for you to get it checked over anyway and i hope you do. I'll still go wheelingof road with you anyday, and I'll buy you a beer if ever we meet on any zook outings.[/quote]

If its in 4x4 without a center diff (Suzuki), you will find it will 'plow' the front end on a surface like wet slippery tarmac. The front end will not be able to rotate at the required speeds to negotiate a corner and thus will be required to slip. There is no other way around it.

Rounding a corner the total effective wheel speed of the front will be faster than that of the rear due to the difference in arc/track they take.
Author:  Santos [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: spontaneous loss of steering what should i be checking?
squibby wrote:
. It's be good for you to get it checked over anyway and i hope you do. I'll still go wheelingof road with you anyday, and I'll buy you a beer if ever we meet on any zook outings.


No please explain , i need to understand your reasoning

see i learned on a motorcycle first, i grew up with the understanding that 'its always your fault, you are squishy, the world is not' I quite happily endure the mocking of my v8 hoon friends who can't understand me letting the space open up infront of me at the traffic lights. I can take the suggestions from stockman and atari that maybe i failed, i'm not too convinced about what you are saying. There is such a thing as being too proud... but being too meek has its side too.
Author:  Santos [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: spontaneous loss of steering what should i be checking?
JrZook wrote:
If its in 4x4 without a center diff (Suzuki), you will find it will 'plow' the front end on a surface like wet slippery tarmac. The front end will not be able to rotate at the required speeds to negotiate a corner and thus will be required to slip. There is no other way around it.

Rounding a corner the total effective wheel speed of the front will be faster than that of the rear due to the difference in arc/track they take.


That seems a good explanation
Author:  squibby [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: spontaneous loss of steering what should i be checking?
JrZook just explained why I think driving in locked 4x4 is a bad idea, and he explained it really well. surely you must notice that strange vague feeling round corners when you are doing it? As for your episode in 2wd recently, fair enough you probably skipped some oil or aquaplaned, but it's all part of driving to the conditions available. I ride a motorbike too so I can understand the other things you mention, but I don't think you understand that a zook is probably... and I say probably one of the worst handling vehicles made in the last 20 years. perhaps you have underestimated this and wrongly attributing your loss of control to the condition of your vehcile, when maybe you were just driving it too fast or not smoothly enough, or any other one of a few contributing factors.

If you don't agree, I don't care. I'll happily beg to differ, and I can't be sure, that's why I reckon it'd be good for you to get the vehicle checked over. I wouldn't bother myself though, I'd just slow down next time or concentrate more. Maybe your tyres are crap, makes a big difference. I almost stacked a car with crap tyres, changed them and never had the problem again at higher speeds around the same corners.
Author:  Santos [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: spontaneous loss of steering what should i be checking?
squibby wrote:
If you don't agree, I don't care. I'll happily beg to differ, and I can't be sure, that's why I reckon it'd be good for you to get the vehicle checked over. I wouldn't bother myself though, I'd just slow down next time or concentrate more. Maybe your tyres are crap, makes a big difference. I almost stacked a car with crap tyres, changed them and never had the problem again at higher speeds around the same corners.


no i hadn't ever notice a strange feeling, it has always felt stronger, i attribuited it to being that the front wheels pulling me through, this thread has inspired me to go dig out my owners manual at my mum's place , i'm sure its says its ok to use 4wd on the wet tarmac. I think sierras handle quite well stock (mind you i grew up driving every single deathtrap in brazil)

I actually shudder quite a bit when i read on the forum about people removing swaybars and lift/mud tyre combos.

When i was 16 i once (and only once ) made the mistake of throwing in the clutch on a motorcycle whilst doing a 90 bend at 15km/H cause i thought i was going to fast and didn't want to slam on the brakes. That was a wake up call on the effect of a free spining tyre and one that has a load driving it.

i'm now 28 , the last person who told me i couldn't drive was some 52 year old douche who treated his 3 tonne work truck like it was a rally car. He mounts curbs around roundabouts, clips signs/post, backs into parked cars behind etc etc. Me and his 29yr old son in law used to laugh about it all the time as the truck has had clutch problems, blown out tyres, steering repairs and is in the workshop every 3 months :roll:
the only other person who makes an issue with my driving is my flatmate who has been car-less for nearly 3 years... the funny thing is i taught him how to drive a manual. :lol:

Squibby i appreciate i'm some random guy to you and vice versa. I'm not really upset, just looking to rectify something that has never happened before in such a manner. I've put a lot of k's on that car in all sorts of conditions.
Author:  atari4x4 [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: spontaneous loss of steering what should i be checking?
i say put it down as a learning experience, it's no biggie IMO.

when you can safely cut sick in a paddock somewhere, put your car into a controlled slide at a safe speed & enjoy the ride. a quick jab of the handbrake could be enough to set it up or the "Scandinavian flick" is another good way to set a car up for a controlled slide. once you get the hang of it you will be amazed in how much you can steer the car with the throttle & by adjusting the amount of opposite lock or correction required to bring the car back in line with out going into over correcting & ending up in a tank slapper situation like you described in your fist post.

i spent hours & hours sliding around in grassy paddocks as a kid & it's so much fun holding a slide for what seems like for ever when looking out the passenger side window watching where your going.

i mount the grand prix curbs at roundabouts, thats what they're there for & those little extra bits of tarmac on apex of the corner on the side of the road that never see any tyres are also free to use.... IMO if it's safe it's ok, i paid for that bit of tarmac & i'm going to use it. :lol:
Author:  Santos [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: spontaneous loss of steering what should i be checking?
if i ever move to japan for Bujikan and to teach english i was hoping to enlist in one of the drift schools. Last nights experience was in fact comforting, it was just another reminder that i keep my cool in life/death type things. Just got to make sure i cover everything before i leave the car behind when i leave for brazil in the next 9 days. To be honest if i had time i would be doing several runs of the same stretch at 1am in the morning to mull it all out.
Author:  Santos [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: spontaneous loss of steering what should i be checking?
forgot to mention the guy mounts the pavement curbs by coming to wide.... not the roundabout itself. (i understand longer wheel base vehicles like busses can't realisticly stay on the tarmac around all roundabouts thats why they are slopped right)
Author:  JrZook [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: spontaneous loss of steering what should i be checking?
atari4x4 wrote:
a quick jab of the handbrake could be enough to set it up or the "Scandinavian flick" is another good way to set a car up for a controlled slide.


I think in sierra terms that would actually be called "a good way to cause epic weight transfer and set up for a roll over" :lol:
Author:  atari4x4 [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: spontaneous loss of steering what should i be checking?
i'm not talking about doing it at mach 10, but yeah i guess being one of those child killing USA death trap roll over machines, i would probably avoid all of my above comments.

i love getting the massive weight transfer happening in my vitara when pitching it into a corner, shit some days it feels like i could reach out the window & touch the ground with the body roll & i'm sure it looks interesting watching it transfer its weight to the outside & loading up the springs from outside.
Author:  JrZook [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: spontaneous loss of steering what should i be checking?
Your vitara even with the lift would still be more stable then the majority of the sierra on here!

Must say the koni's under mine really keep it stable considering the uber low rate springs I have in it.
Author:  steak_knife [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: spontaneous loss of steering what should i be checking?
8O It was the bots!!!!! 8O
Author:  christover1 [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: spontaneous loss of steering what should i be checking?
Tried to do a hand brake turn in a chevy impala, a long time ago,
all it did was slide to a stop, at less than 10* off straight.
T^he monstrous thing took a 10 point turn to get it around,
whereas my XP could do it with a hand brakey.

I should delete this,
or my well behaved angelic image could be tainted by my past ;)

PS
would never even think about it in any zook 8O
Author:  bagnkat [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: spontaneous loss of steering what should i be checking?
Santos how are your shockies?
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