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help with fmu please guys
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Author:  tommii [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:53 am ]
Post subject:  help with fmu please guys
hi guys im wondering if anyone has used a fmu here and where the best place to get a decent one which is good value for money is.
any help would be great guys.thanks
Author:  atari4x4 [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: help with fmu please guys
I'm assuming that FMU stands for Front Mounted Umbrella? :?
Author:  brodiewilson [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: help with fmu please guys
fuel management unit?
Author:  tommii [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: help with fmu please guys
brodie is right.sorry guys should have put that in.yes its called a fuel management unit.
and wondering if anyone has used one or knows the best place to get one kind of cheap.im after a 8:1 ration one.if anyone does not know what it does i will post up details on how it works on my next post.
but if anyone can help know locating and reliability if anyone's used them will.be great.
cheers guys
Author:  tommii [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: help with fmu please guys
fmu allows the car to run normally on small/standard injectors.but can also increase fuel pressure in the rail under boost which in try forces more fuel through the same size orifice.fuel pressure is increased per Psi of boost pressure.

apparently these are only good for up to 7 Psi which is what im looking to run(just under 7)
that description about them is just a quick one off the ebay item add.
so ye if anyone has used one please info would be great also how it was set up and where you got it from.
cheers
Author:  royce [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: help with fmu please guys
So its a fuel pressure regulator?

All fuel pressure regulators keep fuel pressure at a fixed pressure above manifold pressure, so as you add boost the pressure also rises
You are also able to get rising rate units that increase the pressure over the manifold by a certain ratio to compensate for the injectors maybe being undersize or help with tuning or whatever

I would suggest googling Malpassi Regulator and going from there rather than shopping for performance parts on ebay
Author:  tommii [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help with fmu please guys
that's right its aso known as a rising rate fuel pressure regulator.and thanks ill have a look now see how it goes.

how it actually works in simple terms is.it goes after the standard reg.and when it senses boost it limits the amount of fuel that goes back to the tank by restricting the return .which in turn raises the pressure
Author:  Brenno [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help with fmu please guys
Bingo, and forgot shopping on Ebay, most if not all are fakes.

I bought a genuine Sard RR FPR on Ebay, but then I had done the checks to make sure it was a genuine unit. You can find out what checks to do via google search, but dodgy sellers are getting better and better. Try www.spgarage.com.au
Author:  Junior_91 [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help with fmu please guys
Would you be able to use this on a standard ECU and run a turbo? Im looking to run 6 psi through a vitara motor.
Author:  JrZook [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help with fmu please guys
Junior_91 wrote:
Would you be able to use this on a standard ECU and run a turbo? Im looking to run 6 psi through a vitara motor.


Has been done before with moderate success. Cheap band-aid solution tho.
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help with fmu please guys
JrZook wrote:
Junior_91 wrote:
Has been done before with moderate success. Cheap band-aid solution tho.


And part of the problem is that if you are willing to risk the fuelling of an engine to a rising rate regulator alone, you are also unlikely to spend the time on the dyno to investigate if "success" means an engine that just runs or an engine that is likely to last.

Have a look at this page:

http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx

(Although if I'm not doing something wrong the worksheet is buggy - never mind, the formulas are sound)

And bear in mind that stock vitara injectors (apparently) are very close to maximum flow stock.

I don't think you are going to get a very good result with a rising rate reg alone.

A stock injector is 250cc. A rough calc based on 150 crank HP (so about a 50% HP increase) comes out at 320cc. To achieve that, you have to hold roughly 86 PSI of rail pressure at WOT to fuel the motor. That's twice stock pressure.

I think there will be many points in the load/rpm curve where you're going to have a less than optimum result.

Bear in mind that in a car driven off road, you often require fine throttle control (and excellent throttle response) at part throttle, and it's not hard to see that a RRFPR isn't going to cut it all that well.


Steve.
Author:  JrZook [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help with fmu please guys
As said G-banger, cheap band-aid solution that fellas have gotten away with before. Very crud, no guarantees on how successful. Trimming back the timing as well as accurate means of fuelling adjustment is what is really needed.

Here's a read http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=701496
Author:  fordem [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help with fmu please guys
tommii wrote:
that's right its aso known as a rising rate fuel pressure regulator.and thanks ill have a look now see how it goes.

how it actually works in simple terms is.it goes after the standard reg.and when it senses boost it limits the amount of fuel that goes back to the tank by restricting the return .which in turn raises the pressure


Doesn't sound like it would do much if it goes after the standard regulator - the standard regulator is going to limit the pressure being fed to the new regulator. Wouldn't do much good putting it before the standard regulator either, because that will just regulate the additional pressure down to standard.

You most likely need to replace the standard regulator
Author:  Fatzook [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help with fmu please guys
Gwagensteve wrote:
A stock injector is 250cc.


I had my baleno injectors flowed. 170cc. I doubt that vitara ones are any different.

Using the formulas on your link Steve, I get a safe injector flow for 103HP or 76kw. Thats at 80% duty.

So flat out the best you could hope for is 96kw. A mild turbo system would give 20-30% increase in HP, and you'd be running with zero safety net, but most likely you would surpass 100% duty before getting a stoich A/F ratio.

You are taking a BIG risk running a RRFPR as the only fuel system upgrade for forced induction.

Sorry if my numbers are off.
Author:  tommii [ Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: help with fmu please guys
thanks for all the input guys.im looking to run the RRFPR with another set of injecters.not are which yet.still weighing up the options as i know the standard ones won't handle very well.for me this is more of an experiment and experience based thing.i know the motor will pop sooner or later butter tsunami an excuse for me to do something with it:) also im still open to options as to where i can find decent RRFPRs :)
cheers
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: help with fmu please guys
How are you controlling the extra injectors?

Steve
Author:  tommii [ Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: help with fmu please guys
im just going to throw them in on the standard computer and reg with the fmu or RRFPR.or possibly a slightly bigger reg.not sure yet..
and suggestions?
Author:  JrZook [ Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: help with fmu please guys
tommii wrote:
im just going to throw them in on the standard computer and reg with the fmu or RRFPR.or possibly a slightly bigger reg.not sure yet..
and suggestions?



Not gonna work mate. Will over-fuel for pretty much everything except WOT. Drivability will be balls!! If you are going to try and correct fuelling maybe try a MAF interceptor unit with the bigger injectors so you can trim the fuelling down where needed. Still doesn't help with the ignition timing. Best you can do is drop the base timing at the dizzy. Although this will stop it pinging up high it will be pretty gutless down low.

Did you have a sqizz at the link I posted?
Author:  atari4x4 [ Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: help with fmu please guys
this thread was better when it was about front mounted umbrella's :P
Author:  tommii [ Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: help with fmu please guys
no havnt had the chance yet.ill take a look at it soon when i finish work
Author:  Damo [ Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: help with fmu please guys
atari4x4 wrote:
this thread was better when it was about front mounted umbrella's :P


At least we got a new nickname for Gwagonsteve. G-banger FTW :mrgreen:

If you do a search you will find Vit injector rate goodness >>>clicky<<<

As the others have said, using a RRFPR to provide extra fuel is a band-aid solution. IMO you really want control over both fuel and ignition timing when going down the forced induction path.
Author:  tommii [ Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help with fmu please guys
just had a quick look through that link you put up jrzook.thanks for that looks awesome.ill be looking into that bit more soon
Author:  Junior_91 [ Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help with fmu please guys
Ok so aftermarket computer it is then :D
Author:  tommii [ Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help with fmu please guys
I've been weighing up the options.im looking around for computers now.any suggestions?id.only need a cheep basic computer to manage air flow/fuel mixture and timing...
although then id be looking at someone to do the mapping and basic tune...
i know we getting of topic.but im in two minds now...
any suggestions anyone? as to which computer i can use and who to do a basic map and tune for me.
if there is someone on here that would make life so much easier
Author:  JrZook [ Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help with fmu please guys
Have a look at oozuk's or Canberramav's build ups. Both have well sorted turbo setups
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help with fmu please guys
Just step back for a minute tommii. Is your heart set on a turbo or do you have a horsepower figure you need require?

I dont think you've really outlined your needs or the rest of your vehicle setup, or really even your intentions.

An aftermarket turbo setup is an expensive, complex and time consuming way of achieving power that could quite easily be achieved with an off the shelf motor (which might be turbo, but a factory turbo so inherently 59675858X more reliable)

I don't think 6 psi through a G16B would exceed 150HP. A 20V 4AGE is a 160HP motor stock, so is a 4AGZE, A CA18DET, a 3RZ... numerous Mazda BP series motors (which can be mated to an AW-4 auto)

A cheap, basic computer might give you power at WOT, but coarse tuning is likely to result in flaky drivability off boost/idle, and that's going to be a pain, and you are going to spend a lot of money on dyno time to get it right. You might be trying to make a race car (although you haven' t told us either way) but I doubt it, and a car that's piggy when your just pooling around is going to be a pain.

Steve.
Author:  youda [ Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help with fmu please guys
adaptronic
But best bet is to get a factory turbo engine and use stock ecu
Author:  tommii [ Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help with fmu please guys
here's the thing im not after a massive horsepower set up.i honestly just want the fit the turbo and have it running.i know its not going to be the best set up.in the world.and run the best.
so far I've managed to called a t25 off a r33 skyline gts t. its wastewater is a standard 7psi and i have an intercooler off a s14 s2.
im honestly just looking at my options.learning gaining knowledge to finally decide how i want to go about it.
Author:  Fatzook [ Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help with fmu please guys
You can build on the cheap but its not easy....

read this.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=701496&highlight=turbozuki
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help with fmu please guys
You haven't really answered the question. Forgive me if this sounds condescending, but it kind of sounds like you want a car that makes turbo noises above anything else.

What do you want to do with the car it can't do now? Are you sure those things can't be fixed with gearing or running a more powerful atom engine?

An R33 turbo going to be much, much too big for your application. My guess is it won't spool boost until maybe 4000rpm - the 1.6 just won't move enough air to get the turbo to make any boost below that. Even an SR20 turbo will be too big really if you are looking for a build that doesn't require an engine rebuild. Maybe a CA18 turbo... but there are much better options.

At the moment, forget about the hardware. It seems like everyone concentrates on finding a junkyard turbo and forgets that's that not where the cost is - the cost is in tuning and troubleshooting, making an exhaust manifold, exhaust, fuel system upgrades... then theres cooling system, clutch, oil cooling.....

My guess is there's $2K in computer and dyno time. Turn up with an inadequate fuel system, or a crook motor, and you'll just be throwing money away in the dyno cell before any real work gets done.

I've said before that a reliable turbo conversion will likely owe you $6K by the time it's sorted. Talented problem solvers and fabricators have done it for less, but that's people with the mad skillz.... What's your budget?

Steve.
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