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Putting 1.3L & 5 speed in SJ410
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Author:  aussiemodder [ Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:39 am ]
Post subject:  Putting 1.3L & 5 speed in SJ410
Hi,

Still a Suzuki newbie really but fine with mechanical stuff.

I have a SJ410 and have found I just cant live with the 1.0L/4speed combination. I have to commute a bit now which involves a bit of 110Km/hr travel and to do it in the SJ410 feels like I'm thrashing the poor thing.

What is involved in doing a swap to a 1.3/5Speed ? Is it just a basic swap of engine and gbox or will it not bolt to rest of the 1.0L drive chain without a fight or other problems ?

Thanks in advance.

-Andy
Author:  want33s [ Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting 1.3L & 5 speed in SJ410
1.3 chassis engine mounts are in a different spot.
Find someone wrecking a 1.3 and cut them off the chassis and weld to yours.
Either a body lift or some tunnel massaging will be required.
1.3 jackshaft can have 1.0 flange fitted to it and bolt up to your 1.0 transfer.
None of the rest of the driveTRAIN needs any mods for the conversion, but fitting 1.3 NT 3.9 diffs will be beneficial in gearing and strength.
Author:  dougies_tx5turbo [ Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting 1.3L & 5 speed in SJ410
Though I read some time ago about 1L gear box mount need charging but not 100% sure
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting 1.3L & 5 speed in SJ410
AFAIK yes, it's in the wrong spot for the 1.3. It just need shortening though, not fabrication IIRC.

Other jobs involved: open up/move the gear shifter hole in the tunnel, bridge out the external regulator in the loom.

Want33's - I'm not 100% sure that 1.0 diffs are all that much weaker than 1.3. I ran NT 1.3 CV's in mine and had no issues with breakage other than than to be expected with 34" tyres. If the OP didn't want to go wide track, I'd leave the 1.0 diffs in the car. The smaller centre makes for excellent ground clearance.

All up though, the conversion is quite a big job. I 'd seriously consider going straight to a 1.6 and vitara gearbox considering all the engine/gearbox mounts have to change, it's no big deal to change them to suit a 1.6.

1.6 motors are more expensive than 1.3, but there's very little demand for vitara manual gearboxes, so they are easy to find. Sierra gearboxes in good condition are getting expensive/rare.

Having said all that though, if you have a tidy/legal SWB 1.0litre, I'd sell it and swap to a 1.3 WT. If you have a 1.0 LWB, I think the swap is justified, but that's because LWB's are rare.

1.3's are a better car all round for commuter use (rear brakes/taller gearing etc)

Steve.
Author:  want33s [ Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting 1.3L & 5 speed in SJ410
Gwagensteve wrote:
Want33's - I'm not 100% sure that 1.0 diffs are all that much weaker than 1.3. I ran NT 1.3 CV's in mine and had no issues with breakage other than than to be expected with 34" tyres. If the OP didn't want to go wide track, I'd leave the 1.0 diffs in the car. The smaller centre makes for excellent ground clearance.


Strength may or may not be an issue for the OP but the gearing of NT 1.3 diffs will be better than 1.0's if stock size tyres are retained.


Bang the bigger motor in and see how you go..
If it is revving too hard at highway speed you can always fit the 3.9 or even 3.7 diffs later.
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting 1.3L & 5 speed in SJ410
Which is why I brought up selling the car for a WT. By the time the OP swaps in a 1.3/5 speed, and NT or WT diffs, they're left with a car with unbolted brakes and low gearing (via the transfer) that'll likely owe them as much money as a 1.3 that's 10 years newer and needs no jiggerypokery to get the job done compared to swapped in 1.3.

It would have to be a pretty special 1.0 to warrant that much work, which to me means a LWB.

Steve.
Author:  303zuke [ Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting 1.3L & 5 speed in SJ410
aussiemodder wrote:
Hi,

I have a SJ410 and have found I just cant live with the 1.0L/4speed combination. What is involved in doing a swap to a 1.3/5Speed ? Is it just a basic swap of engine and gbox or will it not bolt to rest of the 1.0L drive chain without a fight or other problems ?

Thanks in advance.

-Andy


There a couple of versions of the SJ410, and depending which type you have will determine the ease of doing a 1.3+5spd conversion.

Type 1 has a metal dash with no 4wd light. Came with front drum brakes and no FWH.
Type 2 still has the metal dash, but has 4wd light near Ign Key. Fitted with front disc brakes.
Type 3 has a plastic dash with 4wd light in the instrument cluster. Front discs.

Type 1 will be the hardest. Chassis mounts for the engine and gearbox will need to be modified or fabricated. Transmission tunnel will need some hammering to widen it for the 5 speed box. Jack shaft between the gearbox and transfer will need to be swapped for the 5spd output splines. For rego with a 1.3, you will have to upgrade the front brakes to disc. This is easy to do, but yet another chore on the list.

Type 2 will also require new chassis mounts and tunnel mods, and jackshaft. You already have the discs, yay!

Type 3 will be the easiest. The engine mounts on the chassis will accept 1.3 brackets. Gearbox mount is already the same as a 5 speed. Trans tunnel is wider and will not need widening and of course you have front discs. Swap is virtually a drop-in exercise.

All types will require either a 1.3 bonnet or a body lift to clear the larger engine. The 1.0 radiator will work with a 1.3 as the hoses are in the right place, but the 1.3 rad has a larger capacity and if you are in a warmish climate or work the car hard, you should consider a 1.3 radiator. A power booster is NOT needed for the disc brakes for rego'ing the 1.3, but it is a good idea and one you might consider doing.
Author:  whincup [ Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting 1.3L & 5 speed in SJ410
1L gearing is awesome for 31's!! Armsup
Author:  tonyevans [ Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting 1.3L & 5 speed in SJ410
I have just finished doing the whole thing and would NOT recommend it to anyone - A lot of work - If I was to do it again I would not :wink:
Author:  aussiemodder [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting 1.3L & 5 speed in SJ410
Thanks heaps everyone, lots of good feedback, especially from 303zuke. I hadn't realised they varied that much.

303zuke wrote:
There a couple of versions of the SJ410, and depending which type you have will determine the ease of doing a 1.3+5spd conversion...

Type 3 has a plastic dash with 4wd light in the instrument cluster. Front discs.
...

Type 3 will be the easiest. The engine mounts on the chassis will accept 1.3 brackets. Gearbox mount is already the same as a 5 speed. Trans tunnel is wider and will not need widening and of course you have front discs. Swap is virtually a drop-in exercise.


I realise now I should have given more detail. I think it's type 3. Its an 87 'Special Edition", has the front discs, "4WD" light in the right half of the dash cluster as you describe.
I'm heartened by the news (after being down on it after previous replies). It's only running standard radius tyres, but 255 width on classic locks so brake booster suggestion wouldn't be quite as important as would on 31s or bigger I imagine, but I'll keep it well in mind. I had already replaced the radiator with a 1.3 one so thats sorted.

So getting a list of what I need together;

Engine & Gearbox (inc clutch etc obviously)
1.3 Engine mounts
Bonnet mod/body lift or 1.3 bonnet
Do i need a 1.3 Jackshaft ???

Regards changing diff ratios etc, the idea was to use the overdrive of the 5th gear to sort this. Its happy at the moment at about 90kph, if the 5speed has a 5th gear ratio of 0.795:1 this will make the same revs at 113kph which is much more comfortable. Some spec sheets I've seen say a 5th ratio of 0.846:1 which is less perfect but still a big improvement at 106kph for the same revs.

Thanks again everyone, now to keep an eye out for the bits :-)

-Andy
Author:  mrw82 [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting 1.3L & 5 speed in SJ410
Another option (if you do in fact have a type 3) is to keep the 1 litre and modify your gearbox to be a 5 speed. Yes, it can be done to the type 3 f10a 4 speed.
Author:  aussiemodder [ Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting 1.3L & 5 speed in SJ410
mrw82 wrote:
Another option (if you do in fact have a type 3) is to keep the 1 litre and modify your gearbox to be a 5 speed. Yes, it can be done to the type 3 f10a 4 speed.


Do you mean modify the 4spd itself (sounds expensive) or are you saying that that model will accept the 5spd gearbox with an adaptor or something ? A little more detail of what is needed would be handy.
Author:  Fatzook [ Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting 1.3L & 5 speed in SJ410
aussiemodder wrote:
mrw82 wrote:
Another option (if you do in fact have a type 3) is to keep the 1 litre and modify your gearbox to be a 5 speed. Yes, it can be done to the type 3 f10a 4 speed.


Do you mean modify the 4spd itself (sounds expensive) or are you saying that that model will accept the 5spd gearbox with an adaptor or something ? A little more detail of what is needed would be handy.


Parts from inside the 5speed are chucked into the 4speed. :wink:
Author:  mrw82 [ Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting 1.3L & 5 speed in SJ410
A 1.3 box won't bolt up to the 1 litre. But the internals from the 1.3 5 speed box will fit inside your 1 litre 4 speed box, making it a 5 speed. Find yourself a cheap donor 5 speed gearbox and make the 2 become 1.

I'll post a link later of the gearbox rebuild I done. If your mechanically minded and confident swinging spanners then have a go at it. If your a complete noob when it comes to working on cars then I wouldn't recommend you tackle this yourself.

If your not confident at doing it yourself pm me, depending on what timeframe your looking at to have it done I might have something to help.

Post a pic of your gearbox so I can confirm that it is a type 3.
Author:  2stroker [ Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting 1.3L & 5 speed in SJ410
If all else fails I have a 1 litre 5 speed that I MAY part with or the right money.
Author:  aussiemodder [ Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting 1.3L & 5 speed in SJ410
I'll get a pic tomorrow and ask if someone can confirm it as a "type 3".

Thanks again for all the help.

-Andy
Author:  DanglingD [ Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting 1.3L & 5 speed in SJ410
So just to confirm, can you change a 1.3l NT diff for a 1.0l NT diff?

Bought a new NT diff, put it on the car and realised that the driveshaft didnt
want to fit on the new flange, after asking it could be that the the new diff is off a 1.0l NT.

Will this cause any issues?
I was just going to change the flange over.


Cheers guys
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting 1.3L & 5 speed in SJ410
You can't change the flange over easily. Even if the spline is the same ( not sure off the top of my head) you'll need to replace the crush sleeve and go through the preload setup - best done by a diff shop.

What we're referring to is changing the complete axle housing/diff assembly to 1.3NT.

1.3 NT is 3.9:1 ratio, 1.0 is 4.1:1, so if you only swap one diff the car can't be used in 4WD.

Steve.
Author:  MrRocky [ Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting 1.3L & 5 speed in SJ410
In wa its getting the 1ltr out of 3rd thats the problem into the 40 knot south wester, i couldnt imagine using 5th unless had a cyclone force tailwind.
Author:  sideways [ Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting 1.3L & 5 speed in SJ410
1l diffs have solid pinion spacers.

I don't recall if 1l and 1.3l pinion flanges swap. 1l ones are 22 spline 23.5ishmm. In any case, type 3 1ls and NT Marutis ran 1.3l NT bolt pattern flanges on 1ls diffs. You can still buy the flanges from Suzuki. IIRC they're US$40 on megazip.

I'd just get a 1.3l diff, it's not like they're expensive or hard to find. WT diffs are also a different ratio.
Author:  DanglingD [ Sun Oct 23, 2016 8:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Putting 1.3L & 5 speed in SJ410
Thanks for the quick reply guys.

Yeah I didn't realise till I got the diff in and spoke to the guy I bought it off after...grr...lol
Okay, Anyone here from Brisbane that has a 1.3NTdiff?

Thanks again for your help guys, much appreciated.
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