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Turbo sierras, how strong are they ?
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Author:  IN2DEP [ Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Turbo sierras, how strong are they ?
Hey guys

I've been talking to my 4x4 mechanic about putting a turbo on the gti motor I have, and he said that its a bad idea anless I change my diffs to hilux ones, he said his first tuff truck rig he had was a sierra and they ran a 2.4 jackaroo motor and they kept doing pinions, they did the conversion and never again, but they where running 35s with sierra diffs

Now to get to the point, will a turbo on the gti motor be too much power for the running gear and other parts

Any help

Cheers
Keith
Author:  sideways [ Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo sierras, how strong are they ?
IN2DEP wrote:
Hey guys

I've been talking to my 4x4 mechanic about putting a turbo on the gti motor I have, and he said that its a bad idea anless I change my diffs to hilux ones, he said his first tuff truck rig he had was a sierra and they ran a 2.4 jackaroo motor and they kept doing pinions, they did the conversion and never again, but they where running 35s with sierra diffs

Now to get to the point, will a turbo on the gti motor be too much power for the running gear and other parts

Any help

Cheers
Keith


A few questions...

What tyre size do you want to run?

Do you drive like Smiffkid would in a rental?

How much power are you planning? I'm sure a turbo GTi could put out anywhere from 150hp upwards.

Why do you want that much power?!

In short, yes you are going to break stuff. I'm sure with big tyres and a little care given driving style you would shatter HiLux diffs too.

If you run GregC/Gwagen style diffs and not massive tyres I'm sure the diffs will hold up to it but then there's the issue of everything else. AW4 and LT230 would do the trick.
Author:  Joshyboy26 [ Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo sierras, how strong are they ?
also i dont think those blocks stand up to much boost
Author:  atari4x4 [ Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo sierras, how strong are they ?
apparently the sierra gearboxes are weak :?
Author:  mnemonix [ Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo sierras, how strong are they ?
I get 155kw out of mine and have broken just about every rotating part behind the engine at least once.
Author:  alien [ Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo sierras, how strong are they ?
if you put a tiny turbo on that hit boost at low RPM it could make the GTI a little better to drive offroad, but then a supercharger would do a better job at that... and a stock g16 would be better still.
Author:  BlueSuzy [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo sierras, how strong are they ?
atari4x4 wrote:
apparently the sierra gearboxes are weak :?


:roll:
Author:  stockman [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo sierras, how strong are they ?
BlueSuzy wrote:
atari4x4 wrote:
apparently the sierra gearboxes are weak :?


:roll:


:roll: :roll:
Author:  shep [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo sierras, how strong are they ?
Depends on how you drive. I have 31s and 33s on stock diffs and besides one CV 4 years ago have broken nothing. My wheel bearings have over 100000km on them as well.

I should have about 120kw with my current build and I am not going to bother upgrading diffs.
Author:  JrZook [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo sierras, how strong are they ?
shep wrote:
I should have about 120kw with my current build


For how many seconds? :thefinger:
Author:  atari4x4 [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo sierras, how strong are they ?
stockman wrote:
BlueSuzy wrote:
atari4x4 wrote:
apparently the sierra gearboxes are weak :?


:roll:


:roll: :roll:


seeing fatzook isn't around i thought i better put that out there :thefinger:
Author:  Bucket [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo sierras, how strong are they ?
There's a Sierra kicking around here with a turbo gti engine in it. Last dyno run I got told it had an oil cooled Garrett t25 and made 150 kw at the wheels. No idea HOW powerful that is, but I know it's farking quick. He runs 31s and doesn't seem to have any problems. Flogs up the dunes like a rocket too
Author:  Bucket [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo sierras, how strong are they ?
Bucket wrote:
There's a Sierra kicking around here with a turbo gti engine in it. Last dyno run I got told it had an oil cooled Garrett t25 and made 150 kw at the wheels. No idea HOW powerful that is, but I know it's farking quick. He runs 31s and doesn't seem to have any problems. Flogs up the dunes like a rocket too


I'm also lead to believe it runs a Sierra gearbox. The old owner spent heaps on the engine to get it ported, polished, balanced etc...

Then sold it to build another zook with a 13b rotary lol
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo sierras, how strong are they ?
It depends on what you want to achieve with the car, your tyre size, driving style, and use.

I'll assume you already have the approx. $6K required to build a reliable turbo motor. As has been discussed many times, people often think they can slap something together for $2K, but that's not going to be reliable or even usable for long periods. Lots of tuning $$, cooling system work etc is needed.

Sure, a Jackeroo motor might kill suzuki diffs in a comp situation. Lots of things break in a comp situation than don't break recreationally.

Downstream of the motor, it's all about how much traction you can generate. Sand is a low traction surface - it wont generate much load on the driveline compared to tarmac or rock, and certainly nothing like being jammed up in a rut with an undercut tree root or something. As you add traction you can increase the amount of power you can use, and as you add power (or torque) you can also load the driveline up more through taller gearing and higher wheel speed - but more wheelspeed is rarely beneficial - much more rarely than you'd tend to think.

Cromo's, maybe a floater rear, BenT transfer mounts, and proper gearing should see it last quite well I think, but if you're a throttle jockey none of that's going to matter - it's going to break anyway.

Even a stock sierra with the right gearing can clean the tyres out in mud - the #1 application for wheelspeed. I've been on one hill that needed enough momentum that we were all running out of power at the top, and then we were all owned by guy with a carby 1.3, so I really don't know how much power is required. It's less than I thought.

An abusive driver is able to break sierra running gear with 31's and stock power, so of course bigger tyres and more power are going to make that a bigger problem.

Would I build a sierra with a turbo GTi motor? No - I don't think it would work all that well for my chosen terrain. It would rule in the sand though, assuming you could keep the thing cool, however, I wouldn't try and hold a sierra clutch together with that much power. I'd use a lucky 13 adapter and a trimatic with some stall speed.

Dank's 160hp 20V motor runs 8500rpm - he hates on it pretty hard but the auto goes a long way to holding the driveline together. He's only twisted one axle and broken some hub bolts AFAIK. His weak link is a small auto. With a lucky 13 adapter and a trimatic that's not a problem - the auto will take the hate. The loose converter and tall first gear will really take the edge off the power delivery until the revs are up.

However, A G16B and an AW-4 would be a better combination for most victorian 4WDing and cost less to install than the likely dyno bill for a well tuned turbo GTi.

Steve.
Author:  bazook [ Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo sierras, how strong are they ?
I had a gti turbo running in my sierra and never broke a thing and it was on 32 inch bighorns but my diffs were open though, so i think it comes down to how you drive at the end of the day
Author:  superduki [ Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo sierras, how strong are they ?
Bucket wrote:
There's a Sierra kicking around here with a turbo gti engine in it. Last dyno run I got told it had an oil cooled Garrett t25 and made 150 kw at the wheels. No idea HOW powerful that is, but I know it's farking quick. He runs 31s and doesn't seem to have any problems. Flogs up the dunes like a rocket too



It'd wanna have a fair chunk of engine work / upgrades done to it, to get that sort of power. I run 10 pound through a stock GTi engine in my swift and the best I've pulled out of it was 105.4kw at the wheels, at it has a hell of a lot less drivetrain to travel through than a Sierra.
150kw atw in a Sierra would be hard on everything.

It all comes down to how you drive it. I break lots of shit with standard drivetrain, if you expect a hell of a lot from a Sierra (like I do), it'll break.

I've got a GTi donk in my LWB Sierra, N/A for now, and if I tinker with it down the track, I wouldn't even think a turbo. Superchargers work so well in them. I drove from Tassie to QLD in a G13BB powered Sierra with a supercharger hanging off it, running 5 pound, on 31's a 50 litre waeco, all my camping gear plus two swags, clothes, food etc, sat on 100km/h uphill most of the way. The power delivery is lazy but the overall driveability on the road was absolutely fantastic, I loved it. You literally just put your foot down (within reason) when you encountered a hill.

With the swift I still need to knock it back a cog and come onto it to pull up a hill properly, however I have no issue with that in a car that is only used for daily domestic duties and drag racing.

As most people have done on this forum, have a crack mate, suck it and see, you will learn along the way!

My 2c worth, Cheers, Simon.
Author:  IN2DEP [ Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo sierras, how strong are they ?
Sorry for the late reply guys, been busy with work,

But I'll be running 32s maybe 33s so nothing to big, and no I don't drive like an idiot, but when needed I will use the right foot,

But I was only going to be using a t20 or t22 so not a heap of power just a enough yea, is there an aftermarket crown and pinion that is stronger then stock ?

My engine guy is rebuilding my gti motor for $2200 that's with a blue printed and balanced bottom end and low comp pistons so that's not a bad price,

So hands up for turbo ???? Lol

Cheers
Author:  superduki [ Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo sierras, how strong are they ?
IN2DEP wrote:
Sorry for the late reply guys, been busy with work,

But I'll be running 32s maybe 33s so nothing to big, and no I don't drive like an idiot, but when needed I will use the right foot,

But I was only going to be using a t20 or t22 so not a heap of power just a enough yea, is there an aftermarket crown and pinion that is stronger then stock ?

My engine guy is rebuilding my gti motor for $2200 that's with a blue printed and balanced bottom end and low comp pistons so that's not a bad price,

So hands up for turbo ???? Lol

Cheers



Low comp pistons? I know alot of the guys over on redlinegti.com run vitara g16b pistons as they are 1mm oversize to a stock gti piston, but if you are running low boost, assuming 10 pound or under? There isn't a need to run low compression in it. It will make it sluggish to drive off boost. I run stock size pistons, and have even advanced the timing a slight bit (10 deg btdc) and it handles 10 pound on a daily basis fine. They recommend you retard the timing up to 2 degrees less than stock when boosted, but I found mine was gutless as all get out, and now with cam's in it, I find the advancement so much nicer to drive!

Cheers, Superduki.
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo sierras, how strong are they ?
Whast makes you think the crownwheel and pinion will be the weak link? Axles seem to fail well before the R&P. I recommend upgrading to a vitara rear end cut down when I go to a floater, but there's other reasons for that than just R&P Strength.

OK, so you are at $2200 already. That looks like I am well on track for $6K total.
Radiator/Fans/Fan control
Intercooler/ piping
Exhaust manifold
Computer
Dyno time
Fuel system upgrade (Pump/reg)
Injectors
Turbo
dump pipe & exhaust
Wide band O2 gauge
Air filter/ housing/piping

Have a look down that list and work out how many of those things will have to be custom made, and then figure out what that's going to cost in labour and materials. Also consider that you're building an off road car and that much of the stuff you are going to be looking at is designed for the rice/road performance crowd and isn't suitable for off road use. Sticking a front mount intercooler in front of your radiator and then filling 1/2 of it up with wombat mud is a good example. Air filtration is another - youre going to need a sealed box with a proper element in it, not a pod filter stuck on the front of the turbo.

Maybe you're going into this with your eyes fully open, and if you are that's awesome - plenty of people don't and that's part of the reason I'm putting it out there. Turbo conversions are money pits and often end up pretty flakey - awesome whilst they are going, but plagued with little gremlins. The big gremlin, in my opinion, is going to be getting heat out of the car. You don't really have the option of a rear mounted radiator unless you turn the car into a bit of a PITA and there is precious little room in the front of a sierra.

Surely it would have been easier to start with a motor that made the power you required out of the factory (3RZ, J20, H20, CA18DET, 4AGZE, 4AGE20V) rather than lean on a motor that's already highly strung and out it under huge load in a 4WD?

Steve.
Author:  canberramav [ Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo sierras, how strong are they ?
Gwagensteve wrote:
Whast makes you think the crownwheel and pinion will be the weak link? Axles seem to fail well before the R&P. I recommend upgrading to a vitara rear end cut down when I go to a floater, but there's other reasons for that than just R&P Strength.

OK, so you are at $2200 already. That looks like I am well on track for $6K total.
Radiator/Fans/Fan control
Intercooler/ piping
Exhaust manifold
Computer
Dyno time
Fuel system upgrade (Pump/reg)
Injectors
Turbo
dump pipe & exhaust
Wide band O2 gauge
Air filter/ housing/piping

Have a look down that list and work out how many of those things will have to be custom made, and then figure out what that's going to cost in labour and materials. Also consider that you're building an off road car and that much of the stuff you are going to be looking at is designed for the rice/road performance crowd and isn't suitable for off road use. Sticking a front mount intercooler in front of your radiator and then filling 1/2 of it up with wombat mud is a good example. Air filtration is another - youre going to need a sealed box with a proper element in it, not a pod filter stuck on the front of the turbo.

Maybe you're going into this with your eyes fully open, and if you are that's awesome - plenty of people don't and that's part of the reason I'm putting it out there. Turbo conversions are money pits and often end up pretty flakey - awesome whilst they are going, but plagued with little gremlins. The big gremlin, in my opinion, is going to be getting heat out of the car. You don't really have the option of a rear mounted radiator unless you turn the car into a bit of a PITA and there is precious little room in the front of a sierra.

Surely it would have been easier to start with a motor that made the power you required out of the factory (3RZ, J20, H20, CA18DET, 4AGZE, 4AGE20V) rather than lean on a motor that's already highly strung and out it under huge load in a 4WD?

Steve.


It will cost him at least 6g to get this thing going properly. No doubting that. If done properly im sure he will have a reliable powerful setup that will easily push a Sierra around. Its hardly going to be under a huge load.
Sometimes its easier if you dont have the ability to fabricate brackets and crossmembers ets to go with a motor that bolts in and have people make for you 'bolt in parts' that you can fit yourself.

My turbo conversion was expensive. I did blow a head gasket but that was due to the cockhead mechanic using second hand shithouse hose on the wastegate actuator.
I would do it all over again. (its the first mechanic that screwed everything for me) The power is insane for what i drive. It would be fun in a street driven zook as well.

Ive had the 4agze conversion. I didnt like it. I didnt like where the shifter ended up and the power curve was boring. I like the feeling and the noise of a turbo coming on boost. :twisted:
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo sierras, how strong are they ?
I'm not really that great a fan of the 4AGE at all as a conversion, and I too think it's gearbox related, but because I'm into autos, it's because there isn't a 4 speed, or really a strong/cheap three speed that bolts up.

I'd have to say though that the power delivery of Dank's 20V is pretty impressive - nice stable EFI idle/low rev performance, and then 8500 rpm of wheelspeed on demand. I'd prefer the front mounted distributor of the GZE head though - Danks motor sits a fair way forward.

Whilst I understand your point about "hardly going to be under a huge load" You have a 1.6 to help spool the turbo at lower revs. with the 1.3 GTi and it's relatively weak low end, sizing a turbo to fill that out is going to put a lot of load on the motor at low revs - and that's where tuning to avoid detonation is going to get difficult ( and potentially engine breaking) It's one thing to fry the front tyres at 7000rpm on an 850kg GTi with a turbo,, it's quite another to spool at 2500rpm on a hill on a hot day with a radiator full of mud.

If I'd dropped $6K on a motor, I would want to be able to beat on it without making excuses. The motor is only there to get the car where you want it to go, it's not the point of the car (a bit unlike a drag car, for instance)

weirdly, the hardest I've worked a motor recently was in the snow - It was deep and soft and I was towing a snowboarder. I was sitting at 6-6500rpm for minutes WOT in high 1st. If I'd had turbo torque I would have been in low 2nd at lower revs, but that's when the load on the motor, and the importance of the tuning, is paramount. I admit that's an unusual scenario, but the point stands, a motor you cant lean on because you can't trust the tune or support systems (fuel/radiator/intercooling etc) is no fun.

Steve.
Author:  IN2DEP [ Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo sierras, how strong are they ?
Wow !!! You guys are looking way to 2 deep lol, my cuzins gti turbo got 110kws @ the wheels with a t28 on a stock gti motor with a 3mm comp plate, and had no dramas what so ever,

I'll get the turbo chip from redline, that's going to cost me $100, so won't need a computer, and yea other little things to get it running but doubt $6k, but like I've been saying its going to be a t20 or t22 so not very big at all,

I've got chromos in the front and be getting calmini HD rear axles, so I'm not worried about them but my 4x4 guy told the weak spot would be the pinion so hence why I'm asking other guys that have or had turbo sierras
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo sierras, how strong are they ?
So how is your "cuzins" GTi going now? does he street it all the time at 110kw.. or was that for dyno sheet bragging rights?

How about getting him to try this little experiment. Get you and your three fattest mates to sit in the car, pop the handbrake on a couple of clicks, let the tyres down a bit, and then lug it just around the boost threshold in, say, third gear, on a big hill, a few times. Pick a hot day too.
I'll put money on that blowing the motor. If you think that's unfair, It's just like going 4WDing. 4WD's load motors up much more than road cars, which is why there has never been a factory turbo petrol 4WD sold in Australia.

If we're looking "way 2 deep" you're not looking deep enough. You're going to break your motor and your bank balance if you think you can throw a "chip" in your car have it fuel and timed right and cope with off road use.

Steve.

PS The nice thing about forums is that people can learn from others mistakes rather than their own, but if you're determined to prove us all wrong, go right ahead.
Author:  Red89 [ Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo sierras, how strong are they ?
IN2DEP wrote:
Wow !!! You guys are looking way to 2 deep lol, my cuzins gti turbo got 110kws @ the wheels with a t28 on a stock gti motor with a 3mm comp plate, and had no dramas what so ever,

I'll get the turbo chip from redline, that's going to cost me $100, so won't need a computer, and yea other little things to get it running but doubt $6k, but like I've been saying its going to be a t20 or t22 so not very big at all,

I've got chromos in the front and be getting calmini HD rear axles, so I'm not worried about them but my 4x4 guy told the weak spot would be the pinion so hence why I'm asking other guys that have or had turbo sierras

So what budget have you set for the conversion ?
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo sierras, how strong are they ?
PS I'd be worried about those "HD" rear axles - seem to be made of cheese from what I've seen.

Steve.
Author:  IN2DEP [ Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo sierras, how strong are they ?
Well I haven't set any kinda budget, I'm just playing it step by step, the other week I was at crown and started with $100 and walked out with $2400 so that's going to be my reco motor paid for,

Now my cuzin was driving his turbo gti for around a year before he sold it, and no we backed it down to 107kw, an the guy that tuned It on the dyno has done alot of redline members cars, why cause he knows suzukis, he owed a Suzuki weckers before his shop, and raced sprint cars with gti motors, he did my 1.4l gti block with race ported head group a chip sr20

So say what yous want about him but his a top bloke, his shop is called dyno-mite performance,

Anyways my point I'm trying to make is that I believe I can do this for less the $6k,

Why would I need a $2000 aftermarket computer for running 30-40kw more then stock ??? I'm sure the turbo chip that was designed for low boosted Gtis will do just fine,

I'm not saying yous are wrong and I'm right, but I'm pretty sure I can do it for less then 6k,

Anyways I didn't post this to talk about how much it will cost but to see if anyone has had any big problems with the turbo or any high powered conversions

Do yous think having a n/a gti motor would be better ? Mind yous I'm after low down power, as you would in a 4wd lol
Author:  tanshi [ Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo sierras, how strong are they ?
ask oozuk simple.

he has a turbo g16 and his destroys diffs and transfer cases.
Author:  atari4x4 [ Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo sierras, how strong are they ?
Who are yous talking to :roll:
Author:  canberramav [ Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo sierras, how strong are they ?
If your after low down power a 1600 would have been better. Even a standard 1600 prob would have been better.

The Gti will be sweet on the road though. It will be fine offroad as well if its not a rockcrawler.

Where is this zook going to spend most of its life?


Dont worry about the turbo haters. The Gti motors have been turboed a shitload of times and with the chip instead of aftermarket ECU. They will take a flogging and come back for more.

The money will still add up quick. Even the exhaust and manifold will be $1000.
Author:  JrZook [ Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turbo sierras, how strong are they ?
IN2DEP wrote:
Mind yous I'm after low down power, as you would in a 4wd lol


Supercharger or more cubes or both.
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