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leafs over axle conversion
https://auszookers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=50986		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Camozook [ Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:28 am ]
Post subject:  leafs over axle conversion
Can someone explain
1. How to do it
2. Is it worth it
3.will it do what puttin a 2" leaf lift would do
4.any pro's & con's
5. Any pics of ppl that have done it
Author:  Zook_Fan [ Thu Sep 10, 2015 7:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: leafs over axle conversion
1. Put the axles on top of the diff.
2. No.
3. No. It'll lift it higher.
4. Lots of cons. Mostly people don't address all the changes in geometry to the suspension dynamics and steering.
5. Heaps, go to any american suzuki forum and they pretty much all do it. Alien is about the only one on here with a legal SPOA conversion.

This isn't facebook, all the information is on here already and can be found by searching this site.
Author:  Camozook [ Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: leafs over axle conversion
I did look but i couldnt find sorry
Author:  Zook_Fan [ Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: leafs over axle conversion
Have a look through these threads:
Alien's build thread - SPOA and legal; viewtopic.php?f=4&t=22354&hilit=SPOA
Some SPOA discussion - http://auszookers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=37774

And here is a link to a google search for this site and SPOA (Google has better search functionality than the site search) - https://www.google.com.au/search?source ... 8.6262j0j7
Author:  madmacca [ Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: leafs over axle conversion
viewtopic.php?t=8005
some pics and info of a WA SOA zook
Author:  AckerDackerly [ Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: leafs over axle conversion
As Zook_Fan aptly put it, a Spring Over Axle (we Yanks call it SPOA) suspension lift is no easy thing to do properly.

Here is the USA, we have the benefit of having more flexible government rules having to do with aftermarket suspension modifications. And yes, there are a lot of idiots driving the public roads endangering fellow drivers with their jacked-up full-sized pickup trucks. So don't think too evilly of your government rules.

An acceptable SPOA generally requires:

Properly-built spring perches (aftermarket vendor perches are suitable) precicely mounted 180 degrees opposite of the OEM perches to maintain drivetrain gerometry and front axle Caster.
Extended brake lines
Longer shocks specified for the amount of axle travel created by the lift.
Suitable shock mounts.
Propshaft spacers to compensate for the extended distance from the transfer box's flanges to the differential flanges. (optionally - lengthened propshafts which will reduce operational wear of the U-joints.)

Modifications of the steering gear to eliminate bumpsteer (http://acksfaq.com/bumpsteer_explained.htm). This includes the installation of either an Over-The Top (OTT) steering system or a longer pittman arm to reduce bumpsteer.

It is a lot of work, effort and money to do it right. My lifted '88 Samurai is fitted as above. Although I get comments about the "wimpy" 30-inch tyres, it handles nicely on the roads and can hold it's own on the trails. It certainly is NOT a rock crawler or mudder!

I also would recommend a look at Alien's forum thread.

I hope that this helps!
Author:  J--A--C--K [ Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: leafs over axle conversion
My main concern with spoa is WHY? What is it really achieving ?
Author:  SierraDan [ Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: leafs over axle conversion
Height.
Author:  Camozook [ Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: leafs over axle conversion
Yea cheers acker helps heaps i only wanna run 30-33in tyres havent decided yet wish i could bring my minitruck an my discovery over there as its easier to get a/m parts for them an you have awesome wheelin tracks too have you got a pic of your rig??
Author:  AckerDackerly [ Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: leafs over axle conversion
For some bizarre reason, I really don't have a lot of pics - Poser or otherwise - of my truck

Pics I have found in my archives:

Image

What my Samurai looked like just after i installed the 4.5" SPOA lift in 2000

Image

Recent picture freshly painted before winch install.

Image

This is a view of the Rocky Road Outfitters Stage II Over-The-Top steering linkage that I bought used. You can see that the new, higher-mounted steering arm makes the draglink sit parallel to the ground which is essential for removing bumpsteer. The Stage I kit supplies only the high-mount steering arm and a compatible draglink. The optional Stage II kit adds a second high-mount steering arm for the other side so that the tierod is also moved up out of harms way.

You can also see how the new spring perches are welded on the exact oposite side of the axle from the original perches.

The stock shackles are angled because i installed a Rears Up Front (RUF) spring conversion. The rear springs are longer and, although the trailing mounting bracket adapter moves the spring mount towards the rear of the truck, the spring is still a bit long - causing the bottom end of the shackle to sit a bit forward.

Image

A picture of a 1/2" (12.7mm) propshaft spacer. Note the flange lip - this lip centers the spacer on the propshaft to preserve balance. Nowadays, vendors sell extended-length slipyokes to eliminate the use of spacers. Spacers increase the operating angle of the u-joints which increases wear.

Here is a basic list of suspension add-ons that I have made:

4.5-inch SPOA perches
4-weld-on lower shock mounts
brake line extensions
Rear inboard upper shock mounts
Longer Bilstein shocks (they came with the lift, so I don't know how long they are...)
12.7mm front propshaft spacers
1986 Toyota Hilux double-cardan front propshaft cut down at the splines to fit (I rotated the rear axle up so that the working angle of the rear u-joint was zero as required when using a double-cardan propshaft.)
Rears Up Front (RUF) to eliminate the saggy front springs and "allegedly" make the ride smoother...

There is a bunch of other non suspension stuff on it:
1.6 8-valve engine equipped with a "Sumo" camshaft (?), Thorley extractors, MySide Keihen 44mm Side-draft carburetor.
Stock transfer case
4.625 Vitara differential gearsets
Zuks Offroad front bumper with 8000lb winch
Zuks Offroad Sliders (those red things under the doors)
Rocky Road DIY rear bumper
LED running lights using a JSO-style electronic flasher unit (Tridon/Novita EP34)
Sidekick seats
15" 9.00x30" BFG AT/KOs mounted on Ford F150/Bronco wagon-wheel-syle rims

In closing, I direct you and other readers to an article called "The Six-Inch Rule" (http://acksfaq.com/sixinchrule.htm) written by the late Tim Tackett.

Enjoy!
Author:  madmacca [ Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: leafs over axle conversion
this link works a bit better http://www.acksfaq.com/sixinchrule.htm
Author:  AckerDackerly [ Sat Sep 12, 2015 5:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: leafs over axle conversion
madmacca wrote:
this link works a bit better http://www.acksfaq.com/sixinchrule.htm


D'OH!

By golly. you are right! :rofl:

What I did is actually a common error users make when searching the FAQ. Users cut and paste the dynamically generated page link instead of going to a specific link on the page, opening it and then cut/paste that article link. A link to a dynamically generated webpage gets you nothing...

While there is nothing I can do about that problem short of going back to University to learn PHP or some other scripting language, one would think that I would remember not to make that mistake myself...

It was way past my bedtime...

Also - sorry about the steering wheel being on the wrong side... :lol:
Author:  laurie [ Sat Sep 12, 2015 5:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: leafs over axle conversion
AckerDackerly wrote:
madmacca wrote:
this link works a bit better http://www.acksfaq.com/sixinchrule.htm


sorry about the steering wheel being on the wrong side... :lol:



Image

fixed for ya :D
Author:  Camozook [ Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: leafs over axle conversion
All good mate your a yank the wheel is on the other side for you do you have a .com for the shop you get parts from?? Thats a killa lookin zook mate
Author:  Camozook [ Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: leafs over axle conversion
I actually thought about doin a coil conversion not really sure if thats what i wanna do yet or stay leaf
Author:  Camozook [ Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: leafs over axle conversion
Ok a lil off topic but do anyone know what the difference between the straight raised shackles and the curved or bent shackles like whats the benifits for having them bent or curved
Author:  alien [ Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: leafs over axle conversion
If you're going to the effort of a SPOA it's not a hell of a lot more to figure out a coil setup, but there is more fab work. It's also harder to engineer if you plan to do so.

RE: shackles - no real difference. have a read here: http://www.quadratec.com/jeep_knowledge ... cle-93.htm
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: leafs over axle conversion
Camo- there is no difference. The curved shackles are designed to avoid shackle interference in very specific applications, like the rear of some jeep models. There is no reason to change the shackles unless you're doing fairly complex fabrication. There is no benefit to just bolting them in.
Author:  Camozook [ Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: leafs over axle conversion
I got some 3" shackles with the car but didnt like them so took them off i basically just want to make some nice lookin ones lol just to dress it ip a lil
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Sat Sep 12, 2015 5:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: leafs over axle conversion
It's great to hear you didn't like 3" shackles. You're not going to like SPOA any more than the dodgy shackles.

The advantages of a SPOA car:

Reduced stuff under the axle housings. (This is NOT increased ground clearance, the lowest point is still the diff centre)
Increased belly clearance
Improved approach and departure angles.
Raised roll centre.

The disadvantages of SPOA

Reduced stability in all conditions
Steering modifications which are either very expensive and legal or illegal
Basically impossible to be certified legal.
Reduced spring life
Reduced Uni joint life
Increased brake dive
Increased axle wrap
Significant labour and troubleshooting
Significant fabrication.

There's a myth that SPOA increases articulation. It can, but only as long as you are willing to sacrifice axle wrap, brake dive and short spring life to achieve it, because increasing spring travel on a SPOA car requires over compressing the springs. (otherwise travel is exactly the same as a SPUA car) over compressing the springs shortens their life considerably. The normal progression is something like this: Owner does quick SPOA with stock springs. These then sag heavily and get all bent up. Owner replaces springs with 2" lift aftermarket springs. Car is then super stiff and scary to drive. Owner removes leaves to lower car. Axle wrap returns and kills unis. Owner then fits traction bar which locks out wheel travel under power and bends springs. Owner then fits bumpstops lower to reduce over compression and save springs.

As for adding width to compensate for added height, that's a double edged sword. Adding width increases scrub radius, which worsens road handling, loads up bearings and kingpins (and is implicated in CV failure) increases the amount guards need to be cut, and, interestingly, might make the car less capable. (yes, really) Adding width doesn't only move the outside of the tyres out, it moves the inside of the tyres out. This means you can't ride the inside of the ruts any more, so you're down in everyone else's holes. Now you need a more diff clearance to drive the same tracks, and you loose line choice. Whilst my car is about 12" wider overall than a NT sierra, the inside of my tyres are still the same width apart as a NT sierra, so I can ride the crown of ruts. This, obviously, took a very wide tyre to achieve, which has its own negatives. Adding width to compensate for lost stability is a bit wonky - why loose the stability in the first place? why not just run the car lower? Is belly clearance REALLY such an issue?

Some people like the idea of limiting guard cutting, and cite the lift SPOA provides as a way of avoiding guard work. Personally, I think this is curious logic. I'd rather cut a guard than mess with my car's steering. I'd rather cut a guard than make my car less stable. And really, you're going to still going to have to cut something - and if you really do achieve extra travel, than that means the axle is compressing into the area it was before the SPOA was installed. So then you're cutting anyway. It's not possible to have it both ways.

Anyways, after all the debate, it all comes down to performance. In over 20 years of playing with Suzukis, and all the SPOA cars that have been built over the years, none of them have stayed around in the club. Mostly, their drivers felt they couldn't trust the cars so they stopped trying to drive stuff that SPUA cars were driving easily. (sometimes re-interpreted as "we are crazy and just want to wreck our cars") Which is interesting logic. Other cars were put back to SPUA, others wrecked out or sold on, but I don't see SPOA cars in the bush any more. Take out of that what you will, but SPOA is a lot of work and compromise to end up unable to drive stuff SPUA cars can.

Steve.
Author:  AckerDackerly [ Sat Sep 12, 2015 6:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: leafs over axle conversion
Thanks laurie for the fix!

About where to get parts for a SPOA...

Unfortunately, I have access to vendors who sell LHD vehicle parts. This would be a big problem when it comes to The Over The Top steering system. I am not sure that both steering arms are set up to take the draglink... Jimny/Vitara Dave might know of a supplier in the UK. Unfortunately, shipping from the UK (or the USA) will be dear.

The best alternative to eliminate bumpsteer is to buy a extended-drop pittman arm for the steering box. This will bring the high end of the draglink down enough to reduce - if not eliminate - bumpsteer. I have never done this so I don't know if the drop pittman arm will cause interference with the springs during suspension flex or general steering operations...
Author:  CalZook [ Sat Sep 12, 2015 7:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: leafs over axle conversion
That link is a good read and Steve is pretty much spot on. My original Sierra is SPOA (and engineered in NSW). The amount of work to get it right is huge! I've been fiddling with it for 11yrs now and am still not happy with how it behaves on or off-road. I'm in the process of building a tintop at the moment and it's definitely staying SPUA haha
Author:  alien [ Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: leafs over axle conversion
For the record, mine's SPOA because at the time it was something a bit different. It runs hilux leaves not sierra, was engineerable, and for all intents and purposes does what i need it to do.

There is absolutely better ways to build a sierra than SPOA and there's a lot of examples on here of that. In particular steve's hedgepig.

IF the laws hadn't changed making it near impossible to engineer my sierra again, i'd be looking at some sort of coil conversion, lowering it about 100mm with a heavy guard chop. Even under the old regime though this would have been near impossible to have road legal, which sucks.
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