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Build Ideas and suggestions
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Author:  Joshyboy26 [ Wed Nov 25, 2015 6:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Build Ideas and suggestions
hey guys I have come her for knowledge and input,

I have cut up my old swb sierra due it it just being trashed bent broken and just a lot of headaches,

I have bought a lwb ute and am planning on putting my motor and gbox in it.

The idea will be a fully engineered (bar tyres) legal car that is nice to drive that I can spend weekends in with all my shit and even do a few longer trips however still run the same stupid hard lines that I have been. I want a solid driveline that I'm not worried about getting into it and mostly a nice driving and handling car.


so here are the specs I'm going for so far

86 lwb sierra

4age 20v with 3spd auto ( would like an aw4 in the future but that's for later down the track)

Hilux front diff bundy rear with 4.88s (because they have them in them)
both shaved and locked

looking to run 34-35s

forester MC

Range rover front radius arms flipped on top of diff

Rear 4 link triangulated ( still undecided on this... is a 4 link worth it? 3 link or radius arm same as front?) I don't care about flex and all that I want a stable car that rides well.) I am confident I could build a 4 link triangulated so I'm not worried about that just not sure if its worth it or necessary or does it just come down to where I have room/want room?

Vit coils CRV coils 180sx coils???? which are best?

no body lift if I can get away with it.

some sort of rear tub tray thing

a largish fuel tank. 60-70litres

a similar exo cage to what I had on my swb



what does everyone think? I want to only build this once so if you could have one thing what would it be. what should I do if I have the chance now.

:deadhorse: :deadhorse: :beer:
Author:  gregwatkins75 [ Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Build Ideas and suggestions
Drink holders are a must!
Author:  Joshyboy26 [ Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Build Ideas and suggestions
Good work! This is paying off already haha
Author:  31zook [ Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Build Ideas and suggestions
Sounds like Bluesuzy's rig minus a few details.

The motor sure if you want the work but the G16 motor is still a strong option. I remember dank saying that he had gearing dramas with the 3speed. Raduis arms cause a bunch of binding and on a light car it might be more apparent. With all that work i would i would buy coilovers cause you can change weights, rebounds yadda yadda and they are a smaller package with the chassis being so close to the outside of the car.

Lastly, you can 3-link the rear end but with coilover/coils it may have bump steer in it. No doubt you can chase the issues out of it with super flat panhards which will give you less roll in corners etc but it means your suspension won't cycle symmetrically with it swinging to one side. With the tank in a LWB i would imagine it being easier to package a 4 link in there rather then a flat panhard 3-link.

Do what you want tho haha
Author:  Zook_Fan [ Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Build Ideas and suggestions
Find an engineer that will allow the suspension mods and see which direction they will allow you to take. You may be limited to using OEM suspension linkages which can restrict the layout considerably.
Author:  Joshyboy26 [ Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Build Ideas and suggestions
I have had the 4age and his 3speed in my swb for a while and i quite like the gearing, i think i might go to 5.1s in the t case to make up for the diff gears.

Right now i have 6.5s and 3.7s so should stay pretty reasonable and i wouldnt mind it lower in high range wich is good.


I dont have tonnes of cash to throw at it so coilovers arent really and option right now.

Yeah i think factory arms are the only option, but if it comes to it ill find ones that are close and have them in for a roady then change them out to factory looking custom ones later.

Yeah i think i will be going to a 4link rear.

Im juat not sure i cant fit anything else in the front. The diff and sump already want to make love with a zooky diff!
Author:  monley [ Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Build Ideas and suggestions
Just for reference heres a pic of my rear end on the ute. 3-link +panhard with LWB vitara tank (55L?)

Image

Image

I agree with what 31zook said about coil overs to. There worth every cent and worth saving up for. Having played around with sway bars/different springs/ shock angles etc... coil overs have transform how the car works on road and the car has bugger all bump steer . My old jimny had more than the ute
Author:  pezz [ Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Build Ideas and suggestions
Id start with a few hours and a beer or two with the engineer..
Friendzone him and go from there
Author:  Joshyboy26 [ Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Build Ideas and suggestions
My mate is currently building a car with him as well so im halfway there haha.

I would love coilovers but it just isnt gunna happen right now. Maybe in the future.

If you were to do it again monley would you do a 3 link?
Author:  monley [ Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Build Ideas and suggestions
More than likey i would. Pretty quick and easy to setup, not hard to pack in and even with 12"s of travel there is no rear steer
Author:  Joshyboy26 [ Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Build Ideas and suggestions
Yeah thats cool did you use factory arms or custom ones?
Author:  monley [ Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Build Ideas and suggestions
Custom arms. Factory arms would be nice to use(engineer would probaly perfer that to been that there already proven) and been in vic you might have better access to pick apart wreckers than what we have in WA so it could be a cost effective/time saving optoin for you
Author:  got_bar_work [ Sun Nov 29, 2015 6:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Build Ideas and suggestions
U could use superior arms as they can all be engineered. Everything from factory is weak as piss.
Or just use some stock arms for engineering then cut the pipe out later and replace it with thick wall semless.
The problem is u r not ment to use rubber bushes on a 3 link. U should use a solid joint like Johnny joint or similar.
U can engineer anything if u fork out to get it tested.
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Build Ideas and suggestions
I could bang on about ways of building this sort of car for hours and thousands of words, but here's some quick thoughts

#1 priority - get the distributor off the back of the head so you can get the engine where it needs to be - back against the firewall. There are kits to relocate the distributor and others to convert to coil packs. Regardless, I see it as the #1 priority. Every other element of the build will benefit from this move.

#2 I don't think hilux axles, flipped radius arms, and the sierra chassis are going to get along (especially with engineering) My arms are under the chassis at the axle end, where you'd want them for the lowest roll stiffness, but thats not possible with hilux axle housing as the 3rd member is in the way. The arms will have to go outboard of the rails and this will mean there's no room for the coil hats on the axle housing with the arms flipped.

The broader problem with outboarded arms is high roll stiffness and reduced articulation. Dragging to coils out further to miss (flipped) arms also reduces articulation and increases roll stiffness... which then brings up the problem, of matched roll stiffness with the rear, as both three and four links have no inherent roll stiffness and generally the relationship between the chassis, track width and tyre position means the coils/springs have to go inside the rails. this makes for a very soft rear and very stiff front, the exact opposite of what feels nice off road.

As for arms I would NEVER build car around aftermarket arms (or springs) because it locks you in to one source for replacement/bushes etc.

I would build on SWB Vitara springs. This gives huge scope for lift and rate.

you'll need to talk very carefully with the engineer about increased weight. Without trying to increase GVM, you only have a possible 125kg of weight you can add to the car.

Maximum tyre size you can certify will be 33 on hilux/bundera axles.

Anyways, there's some thoughts.
Author:  Joshyboy26 [ Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Build Ideas and suggestions
http://www.sq-engineering.com/upgrade-p ... r-kit.html

Armsup

Tyre size was never gunna be engineered without a lange change so never gunna happen, ill live wuth that when the day comes.

I know what your saying about the suspension, i was really hoping i could squeeze it in, i knew it would be tight, i guess ill come to that in the next few weeks when i mock it up.

I was planning on stock parts not aftermarket. That way they are easy to get. But it depends if i can get the numbers i want in the suspension

Hopefully with the diffs and suspension i should be able to bump up gvm.
Author:  Joshyboy26 [ Mon Dec 07, 2015 6:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Build Ideas and suggestions
Ok so upping gvm isnt possible. Why do you say 125kgs steve? I havent weighed the car so i dont know what it weighs however it says 880kg tare and 1340kg gvm.

Hopefully I can keep it under that, i believe the diffs are only about 30kgs each heavier and i guess the motor will be similar. Hopefully I can keep the weight down with a very light tub and therell be no winch and a very empty fuel tank for the weigh in!! I might also starve my self for a few days and have no shoes on for it!
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Mon Dec 07, 2015 6:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Build Ideas and suggestions
You're only permitted to increase the dry weight of the car by 30% of the payload- 450/3= 150kg (my earlier figure was wrong, sorry) you'll be surprised how quickly that adds up. Rover radius arms, for example, are very heavy.
Author:  Joshyboy26 [ Mon Dec 07, 2015 7:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Build Ideas and suggestions
Hmm is that just the nature of cast radius arms or are range rovers heavier than normal? I feel like they all are haha. Yeah ok then food for thought.

Have you come across any other radius arms that are light/ possibly work
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Mon Dec 07, 2015 8:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Build Ideas and suggestions
It's mostly the nature of cast arms, and a catch with this sort of build - you're added power, which requires heavier components to build in strength, which then adds weight, making the car less capable and lowering the power to weight ratio. It's a fine balance.

Jimny rear arms are the probably the lightest "long" arms you can get, however, they weren't designed to go in the front and might bend in that application where they see more loads. Pajero rear arms are also long and flat and might be lighter than rover/patrol/cruiser

However, I don't think there's as much aftermarket support for pajero arms compared to rover.

Joe Leban was able to up the GVM of his yellow car, and I think that was a response to how heavy it was once complete, not a result of wanting to carry more stuff. I'm not sure what was required for him to achieve this, although cruisers can have GVM increases approved readily enough, so it's not out of the question.
Author:  dank [ Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Build Ideas and suggestions
My .02c mate:

-I'm with Steve, get a coilpack conversion or dizzy relocation kit. will make everything work alot better.

-To do coils all round and shocks, you are probably up for at least $600-800 of mid range EFS/Dobinsons type gear. At the very least put some decent shocks in. I can supply you with some Bilstein B6 Offroad shocks. these will get you some way to a decent ride and offroad handling/control. We can also get these revalved and or valved prior to fitment here in Melbs. I would seriously look at coilovers though. Much easier to package into a setup and the setup options are basically infinite. Imagine driving up something like rocky track foot flat to the floor....lol. It's another level of awesome. Especially if you can build in something like 6-8inch of compression travel with hydro bumps. (might be hard to do but worth considering)

-If I ever build a zook again it'll have coilovers, no doubt about it. and it'll go fast. You need good suspension if you are doing all the work on a custom build

-consider mid mounting a fuel tank to centralise the weight. will take some load off the rear end.
Author:  MrRocky [ Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Build Ideas and suggestions
Seems like alot more shed time than trail time to drive exactly the same stuff a more basic build could do. For the sake of a few inches of flex and running coilovers is it really worth years in the shed rather than just going out wheeling a simple rig
Author:  Joshyboy26 [ Mon Dec 07, 2015 7:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Build Ideas and suggestions
The engineer said a pretty flat out no to increasing the gvm so ill just run with that and go from there, im waiting to hear back about what he says for the rest haha!

The only reason im doing this is i want lux diffs so i can stomp on it without fear of snapping shit all the time. And basically to get it low i need coils as leafs just dont seem to work, they are either good but flog out every few months or are hards as fuck. And i cant really run the spoa without a lot of dicking around.

Apart from that i dont really care. I dont have money for coilovers and really its a zook who cares. My old zook rode grouse with the leaves i had in it and if i can get that level of comfort back again ill be happy.

I agree with the shed time. While i like making shit i certainly dont want to spend years trying to build something that costs tonnes that i drive 10 timea a year.
Author:  vet 180 [ Tue Dec 08, 2015 1:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Build Ideas and suggestions
MrRocky wrote:
Seems like alot more shed time than trail time to drive exactly the same stuff a more basic build could do. For the sake of a few inches of flex and running coilovers is it really worth years in the shed rather than just going out wheeling a simple rig


I agree with this 100%

But in saying that the OP should just do a basic RUF, run 31's and a diff shave the wheel the crap out of it!
Author:  Zook_Fan [ Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Build Ideas and suggestions
Joshyboy26 wrote:
I agree with the shed time. While i like making shit i certainly dont want to spend years trying to build something that costs tonnes that i drive 10 timea a year.


If you go through with this build and have it out more than 10 times in the next 3 years you'll be ahead of most taking on something similar. You'll have to be committed to the build especially with an engineer guiding and changing your build plans slightly.

And the engineering ticket alone is going to cost as much as a set of coilovers. Probably not a huge point to you right now but a coilover engineered Sierra is going to be worth more when completed compared to a coil set up.
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Build Ideas and suggestions
I think the biggest challenge with a coil over Sierra is keeping the height within engineerable limits and having enough compression travel to warrant the coil over.

My understanding is only a 30% increase in compression travel is permissible at ride height so that's 4" in the front and a little over that in the back. You can cheat this a little with bumpstop positioning but all up its a tonne of work and cost that might not show much advantage.
Author:  Zook_Fan [ Tue Dec 08, 2015 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Build Ideas and suggestions
If you ran a soft enough bumpstop that you could get 50mm of squish out of (80 series landcruiser wouldn't be too far off) you would be running right in the middle of a 12" coilover. Agree that this is cheating but I don't believe that mounting a coilover is a tonne of extra work when compared with mounting a pair of springs and a pair of shocks, arguably it is less fabrication work just more design packaging work.
Author:  Joshyboy26 [ Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Build Ideas and suggestions
My last build had about 50mm of uptravel. I definitely don't want a car 100mm higher than mine was! Besides 1000 for springs shocks opposed to 2500-3000 for coilovers that i still have to tune etc before they even work. Meh.

I am nlt building my car for resale value. I garuntee when im done with it ill sell the driveline and throw the rest in the bin.

Besides people wont pay 3000 for a sierra let alone the 10k that itd be worth. Sierras are not an investment.

I do understand that mounting them would be easier but trying to work them with sweet fa uptravel would be too hard.
Author:  31zook [ Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Build Ideas and suggestions
$1000 in heims, probably $1000 in steel for linking, $1000 for coils, $1000 for tyres, $800 for a tcase gears, $500 diffs, $3000 for all the odds and ends like fuel pump, wiring, zorst, seats, PS, drive shafts, exo, etc.

I can't see how you can get out of this cheaply and not have a janky car.
Author:  Joshyboy26 [ Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Build Ideas and suggestions
Got
Tyres
Case
Motor
Box
Fuel pump
Wiring

Need to get

Cage (built one before aware of the costs)
Ps wedge (have the rest)
Drive shafts lengthened/shortened
Zorst (meh) got most of it just shorten/lengthen tube.

Got diffs.

No heims due to engineers (i dont think) waiting for the next reply. Obviously buying links radius arms so probably a few hundred in the end yes
But im assuming im going to need stock links but really itll be shorten or lengthen them (sshh)

Im not looking to get out of this cheaply dont get me wrong im well aware its gunna cost me several grand. Im in no denial of the cost.

However an extra 3 grand off it for suspension that still isnt set up that i need to buy extra coils for, tune, setup and probably still wont be right due to stupid zook suspension uptravel/down travel doesnt really make sense.

I know its a very slippery slope and im trying to hold myself up haha but saying meh only another few grand here another grand here really makes this car an unviable build for what i want to do.


I really only want links for axle control and if its gunna get too crazy im more than happy to run leafs and panhard and anti wrap bar. Not fussed


Just throwing out ideas before i start building .

I appreciate the help from you guys because in the end its going to save me money.
However im Prett set on the 4age cos well basically its fuckin grouse but its too much for the diffs so i have to accept that and work with it. Which im happy to do. And i have no problem spending money but i want something that balances out the cost/ reward equation..

Which im also falling down haha!
Author:  dank [ Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Build Ideas and suggestions
Just buy a 40 series with an LS1 in it.... :P
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