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Sierra 88 sj50 steering column - Wheel alignment results
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Author:  cyprus73 [ Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Sierra 88 sj50 steering column - Wheel alignment results
Hi all.
Is the steering column on an 88 Sierra rebuild able?
I'm having some steering issue and have check
Changed just about everything. The steering wheel
Won't return to centre and I'm suspecting the bearing
In the steering column is binding

Thks

Chris
Author:  bumstein [ Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra 88 sj50 steering column
What are the "steering issues"? Other than return to centre?

The steering shaft is pretty basic. Disconnect it from the steering box at the rag joint (4 bolts and a rubber joint) and if it's not turning properly then there's a strange issue.

My money would be on one of several things (or several of them). In order of likeliness.

Tie rod ends and drag link ball joints stuffed. They might stick and cause the steering to be all clunky and crap

Steering knuckle needs a rebuild, kingpin bearings buggered and not turning properly.

Steering box flogged out
Author:  bumstein [ Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra 88 sj50 steering column
Oh yeah.. Check the steering damper out too
Author:  cyprus73 [ Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra 88 sj50 steering column
Hi.

Thanks for the reply.
I have already changed the steer box from manual to power steering no difference.
Changed the steering knuckle near the firewall no difference
Dont the steering knuckles kingpin bearings no difference.
With without the damper no difference
Wheel alignment no difference
Different tires no difference

Had someone look at Tie rod ends and drag link ball joints says they are all fine
2degree and then 3 degree casters and still no difference.

The only thing I haven't done is the steering column inside the cabin.

Issue, it doesnt return to center and is very scary over 60kms/h
The car is for my son who is on his L's and dont want to let him start driving
it until it sorted.

Thks again
Chris
Author:  bumstein [ Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:39 am ]
Post subject:  Sierra 88 sj50 steering column
Ok sounds like you've put a lot into it so far!!

Trying to get my head around it. On the steering shaft there is a small universal joint. Perhaps that's been painted or something and it's frozen?

Can I ask how you checked the tie rod ends and drag link ball joint?

Other than that I think I'm out of my depth without looking at the car myself, but perhaps there's an issue somewhere else like the suspension setup or bushings

You say it's scary over 60 kph. What does it do? Death wobble? Dart from side to side? Steering too loose?

Realistically if it becomes scary over 60 it's unlikely to be the joint on the steering shaft frozen.

Other ideas;

When you replaced the King pin bearings, did you check the preload?

I'm still suspicious of the ball joints.

Shackles loose, bushings stuffed or non standard/extended shackles in place?
Author:  tanshi [ Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra 88 sj50 steering column
what makes you think its not returning to centre?

please tell me its not just because your steering wheel doesnt sit level?
i.e if your driving along the road going straight and take your hands off the wheel is the problem that it looks like its turning?

if so its just that the steering wheel isnt on the splines in the right place.
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra 88 sj50 steering column
Does it have standard shackles? With the front wheels off the ground and the engine off is the steering light
Author:  cyprus73 [ Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra 88 sj50 steering column
Hi.
Uni joint on the Steering shaft was changed thks to Steve's suggestion, and yes it yes binding
King pin bearings were done as a fix to the issue and that made no difference. They were done by a mechanic
friend of mine who has done many of landcruisers / Hillux and Zooks before.
Tie rod ends and drag link ball joints were also checked by him.

You have to constantly have to correct the steering and feel stuck. I have adjusted the power steering
box either way and besides adding slack/slop to the steering the inital issue is still there.

Tanshi, ive been around cars both rally, drag and circuit to not fall for that one. No its not that the steering wheel doesnt sit level.

Steve, Shackles look standard. With front wheels off the ground and engine off steering feels as heavy / light as any other power steering
car that has its engine switched off.

Thks all.
Chris
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra 88 sj50 steering column
"Constantly correct?"

Tyre size, rim size, tyre pressure?
Spring bush condition
Spring shackle condition? (These can wear badly causing loose handling)

Lastly, do you know it's worse than a normal Sierra? It seems as these cars age their handling seems much worse than it did 20 years ago due to the improvement in handling of other road cars.
Author:  tanshi [ Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra 88 sj50 steering column
and its not just following grooves in the road? tram lining as its called
Author:  rustyzook [ Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra 88 sj50 steering column
So it was like this before you changed to power steering? Did you use vit box and wedge or jimny box? The pitman arm isn't binding on the drag link if that makes sense. How is the rag joint?

As Steve said TYRE PRESSURES!!!! And bushes, mine wobbles like a jimny on heat when the shackles come loose or the bushes wear out.

Also becomes hard to handle when the wheel bearing are shot. As for the steering wheel and shaft it's just that. You can stick your head under the dash and look, if you think that's it, undo the rag joint or take the Uni off and see how it feels. But I don't think you will find your problem there
How long have you had the car for and has it always been like that? Sierras have poo handling
Author:  cyprus73 [ Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra 88 sj50 steering column
Hi All.

Had the car for about 6 months and was like that from day one. Initially it was diff under springs. I change that back to diff above
springs with new 2" EFS leafs. leaf rubbers are new and shackles are tight. Have tried 2 sets of tires 26" with proper pressure and
29". Wheel bearings are new and done when I did the knuckles. No its not following road groves, have driven it in different areas and
still does the same.

Rustyzook, what is the rag joint and where is it? The uni on the steering rod in engine bay near firewall, was all seized and was replaced.
It was like this before changing the old manual steering box, with a Vitara power steering box with wedge.
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra 88 sj50 steering column
How did you determine caster angle when you converted the car back to SPUA?
Author:  rustyzook [ Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra 88 sj50 steering column
The rubber piece in the steering.
Author:  cyprus73 [ Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra 88 sj50 steering column
Steve basically just from site. Tried 2 degree wedge and it looked like the diff
Was still leaning forward so I went to 2 degree. The car will go back on a wheel
Alignment machine on Saturday. Hopefully it would shed some more light
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra 88 sj50 steering column
It's common practice to roll the pinion up to assist driveline angle when running SPOA. If you have based your caster off the spring pad position from the SPOA, you may have terrible caster which would explain what you're feeling.
Author:  cyprus73 [ Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra 88 sj50 steering column
Hey Steve. Can you please explain? Not exactly sure
What you are saying. Steering side of things is new
To me
Author:  THE_DICTATOR [ Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra 88 sj50 steering column
Go and get a wheel alignment, it will tell you how bad your castor is.

My money is on your castor being a long way from where it should be
Author:  bumstein [ Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra 88 sj50 steering column
Im just trying to get my head around castor angle.. Here's a quick explanation of castor and supports the dictators thoughts on the matter..

http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/castor_angle.html

If you've converted from SPOA back to spring under then this seems very likely!!
Author:  cyprus73 [ Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra 88 sj50 steering column
Hi I sort of understand caster but what do
I need to do to fix it. I have already installed
3 degree wedges what else can I do?
Author:  fordem [ Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra 88 sj50 steering column
Start by determining what the current caster angle is - if you don't know what the caster angle is how will you know what needs to be done to correct it?

You are "reversing" a SPOA conversion, apparently without the benefit of knowing how the conversion was done - or at least, we don't have the benefit of knowing how it was done, or what you have done to reverse it - for example - are you now using the original spring pads - was the axle itself modified to correct the castor angle when it was SPOA - if it was, then that will also need to be reversed.

You haven't answered the question on shackles - shackle length affects caster.
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra 88 sj50 steering column
(Beaten by Fordem) Cut and reweld the spring pads. Were the original SPUA spring pads removed when the car was set up SPOA? Did you reweld the pads back into the SPUA position? Did you reference their position from a known good axle or did you reference the existing SPOA pads?

Caster could be a very long way out.

I also assume you've installed the wedges around the right way, with the thick end of the wedge facing forwards?
Author:  cyprus73 [ Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra 88 sj50 steering column
Hi All.

The original spring pads were not modified. The was a second set added to the diff, so the conversion back was straight
forward. Wedges installed the right way with the thing end facing forward.

The shackles look standard to me, they are not anything fancy.

Thks all appreciate your feedback

Chris
Author:  tanshi [ Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra 88 sj50 steering column
um correct me if im wrong but the wide end of the castor wedge should be forward not backward to correct caster angle
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra 88 sj50 steering column
Yes, thick end forward when used in the front to correct (increase) caster.
Author:  fordem [ Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra 88 sj50 steering column
It depends on the position of the axle - in this case (SPUA) - thick end forward increases caster.
Author:  watermouse [ Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra 88 sj50 steering column
A few geometry basics, without having a drawing handy: When viewed from the side the angle of the king pin axis should slope where the top king pin is behind the bottom king pin ie forwards and downwards. If the king pin looks closer to vertical or the bottom KP is behind the top KP then you don't have effective castor or negative in the latter.

The result of correct castor angle has the extended axis of the king pin (an imaginary line if you like) touching the ground a certain distance ahead of the centre of the ground contact patch of the tyre. I don't know what that measurement should be. Someone may be able to chime in on that.
Author:  tanshi [ Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra 88 sj50 steering column
so I guess part of the question is does the "thing" end as he wrote above mean thin or Thick
Author:  cyprus73 [ Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra 88 sj50 steering column
tanshi wrote:
so I guess part of the question is does the "thing" end as he wrote above mean thin or Thick



Sorry. Thick end forward
Author:  rustyzook [ Wed Sep 21, 2016 12:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sierra 88 sj50 steering column
Go to wreckers, get a new housing for $100 and put all your gear in it. Preload your King pins and be done with it. What suspension are you running? Is it Sierra? Has some one done a ruf when it was Sprung over? I guess if you could post some pics it may help us. I'm no expert on this matter, however everyone else in this thread has played around ALOT with sierras and from what I can gather we all need more information on what exactly has been done to the car. Pictures can help a lot sometimes.


How sure are yo that they didn't cut and move the "original" Spring perches. I've seen SPOA done with the "original" SPUA perches moved so it didn't look wacky. To look at the "original" perches on those diffs it didn't look like they had ever been touched. But they had and that had been moved around the diff a fair bit. This was done so if the car got defected they could swap it, clear the defect then swap back to SPOA :roll:

What was the steering setup before with SPOA z-link? Hi steer? Hi-steer with merc arm bolted to knuckle? What have you done to the drag link and steering arm when you converted it back to SPUA? What pitman arm is on the box? Standard Sierra? Massive drop arm? These are all things that could help. But I think you will find the guys are already on the money with the castor.
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