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SAS Vitara with hilux diffs
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Author:  chris moore [ Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:00 am ]
Post subject:  SAS Vitara with hilux diffs
Hi all, new to this forum and first time suzuki owner. Just wanted to get some advice about SASing my 89 vitara. I have hilux diffs I want to put in. Has anyone done this and still been able to register car (after engineering of course)??
Will the g16a and gearbox turn the larger diff or internal gears altered?
Any advice would be welcomed before I start rip,tear, bust.
Cheers
Author:  tanshi [ Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SAS Vitara with hilux diffs
hilux are too narrow for a vitara

you will need to do it to a very high level of quality to get it regoed.

tyresize will be the issue not the size of the diffs as to whether the engine will turn it.
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SAS Vitara with hilux diffs
Are you going to do this work yourself?
How familiar are you with suspension design, engineering and fabrication?
Have you fabricated anything on a similar scale before?
What use do you intend to put the vehicle to?
As per Tanshi, Hiiux axles are too narrow

Steve.
Author:  Red89 [ Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SAS Vitara with hilux diffs
Pictures are gone but these threads may give you some ideas of what is involved. Neither were road regoed though I dont think

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=43549&hilit=sas+vitara

viewtopic.php?t=23576
Author:  Eddy [ Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SAS Vitara with hilux diffs
... wot GWS and Tanshi said

Need to lash out and buy yourself a tape measure first.
Author:  chris moore [ Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SAS Vitara with hilux diffs
Ok much appreciate, so what does go? Just go straight for suzuki option? Was a thought cos of the spares, got a 95 hilux "too illegal" for vic, so the zook is the new work runner and I can't help but modify. I'm a boily/fitter with mining and earthmoving experience so the angle of the dangle is familiar. Being lazy I guess. Past experience leads me to keep it lean low and wide . 30's are the cutoff and was going to try 5 link in the rear. Fabricated radius arms. Vitara hardback feels a bit top heavy
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SAS Vitara with hilux diffs
There is no advantage in building a SAS vitara for 30" tyres. The front IFS of a vitara can be built to work exceptionally well and plenty strong enough for 30's.

The logical axle swap is 60 series cruiser or gq patrol but both of these will bring teh suck on 30" tyres. (Although you could engineer a 34 on either)

Steve.
Author:  chris moore [ Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SAS Vitara with hilux diffs
Thanks for the info steve, is there a link or something I can research this further? Would that involve those kits where you can drop the front diff for nicer cv angle for more downward wheel drop.
Cheers
Chris
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SAS Vitara with hilux diffs
I can't type a detailed response right now, but yes, diff drop brackets are definitely part of the solution.

"Fixing" the vitara front end sounds complicated when every step is described, but the end result is a car thats much nicer to own than a SAS car, many of which are pretty terrible to drive.

Around 10" of vertical travel is possible along with a very plush ride and lots of ground clearance.

I'll put some more details down over the weekend.
Author:  Sausager [ Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SAS Vitara with hilux diffs
I'm following this one for Steve's response :D
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SAS Vitara with hilux diffs
I spent lots of time working on Vitara's with a fellow club member. He ended up with a pretty sweet setup on a G16B LWB Auto car but it took quite a lot of work. I can't take credit for all the ideas and parts, but as I did a lot of the labour and the owner isn't on here any more, I'll weigh in.

First thing to note is that Vitaras have (in my opinion) dreadful handling in standard form. I put most of this down to a really wonky roll axis. I actually think they're bad enough Suzuki should have been forced to withdraw them from sale.

Here is a representation of roll axis.

Image

"One would hope that for the most part these roll centers are close to the middle of the front and rear axes. If not, then the car will be sliding one way or another as the weight shifts unequally about the roll axis"

And guess what - the vitara has a very steep roll axis - the front is very low, a product of its strut suspension, and the rear is very high - at the ball joint on top of the rear axle housing. This makes for wildly unbalanced grip front to rear - the front steers well and stays flat in corners, while the rear rolls around and grip is low. As a result, vitaras, especially in SWB form, tend towards snap oversteer, and never feel particularly safe or settled.

Now unlike almost every other 4WD, when you lift a vitara, the front roll centre rises but the rear doesn't move at all. So, lifting a vitara flattens the roll axis and therefore balances grip front to rear. Front grip is actually reduced, but this doesn't matter because it's now closer to rear grip.

The next "quirk" of a vitara is that they have no rebound stops on the front suspension. Almost all IFS 4WD's have rubber stops (some times called "jounce rubbers") that prevent the suspension drooping too far. This means that regardless of how much lift is added to an IFS suspension, there's no additional travel, it's just resetting the rest point. That's not the case with a Vitara.

This is both good and bad. It means you can stack longer struts (like those made by OME) with strut spacers (As provided by various sources such as Calmini) and end up with a really impressive amount of travel and droop. However, because there are no stops, you can keep drooping the front end until the front axles fall apart.

The first thing that falls apart though is the driver's side axle pulls out of the front diff. The fix is to bearing support this side and have a passenger side axle machined down so both right and left axle assemblies are the same. (The driver's side has less travel) this also speeds axle replacement, and makes left and right axles the same.

The next problem is the front housing and third member are alloy, and prone to breaking under high torque loads, especially if you left foot brake or bounce on a decent. Using steel GV parts fixes this problem.

The sweet combination we ended up with on CJ's car was as follows:

Calmini front control arms
Camini front springs
OME struts
Calmini diff drop brackets
Steel axle housing from a GV
26 spline axles from a GV
Steel third member from a GV
Stubby shaft modifiction
Airlocker
No swaybar
Camber bolts
small front bumpstop spacers to prevent the springs binding on full compression (these are OME parts for an XL-7)

I think we *just* got away with calmini strut spacers, but golly the CV's were right at the very limit of their travel at full droop/reverse.

This was very reliable with 31" tyres and gave an incredibly plush ride. ground clearance was excellent under the front diff, much better than with a live axle. On road the car felt plush and had much more body roll, but didn't feel anywhere near as nervous or darty as an unlifted Vitara.

Here's some pictures of the steel housing with the/drivers side axle mods.

I know this looks like a lot of work, but there's almost no scope to get this wrong and end up with an undrivable/illegal mess of an unfinished project.

Steel housing on left, alloy housing on right

You can see the stubby axle, bearing housing to support the axle, and little bit of the calmini diff drop bracket.

Image

Another view

Image

Bearing installed

Image

Rear suspension was all calmini initially. Avoid running very long shocks which make the springs go loose- there is no advantage in capability, and the springs clanging and falling out gets old.
Author:  MrRocky [ Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SAS Vitara with hilux diffs
Dunno what your trying to acheive with your build but you may be grossly dissappointed in capabilities by choosing a vitara as a starting point
Author:  shep [ Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SAS Vitara with hilux diffs
MrRocky wrote:
Dunno what your trying to acheive with your build but you may be grossly dissappointed in capabilities by choosing a vitara as a starting point


Unless you are playing in dunes, brivits vitara is a weapon and goes up dunes in 2wd that sierras can't get up in 4wd
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SAS Vitara with hilux diffs
MrRocky wrote:
Dunno what your trying to acheive with your build but you may be grossly dissappointed in capabilities by choosing a vitara as a starting point


Whilst I agree that the OP hasn't specified their use, there's plenty of people who think that only a Sierra can be any good off road and that IFS is automatically garbage, which isn't remotely true.
Author:  vet 180 [ Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SAS Vitara with hilux diffs
MrRocky wrote:
Dunno what your trying to acheive with your build but you may be grossly dissappointed in capabilities by choosing a vitara as a starting point


That is a very big call. I have seen vitara go places sierra can't go. I am a big believer is running what you have until you hit the limit of the car and then either upgrading parts or the vehicle. As long as you are out there with a smile on your face that's all that matters.

To the OP. Gwagonsteves advice is very good and keep it in mind as you break stuff or start running harder trails. However for 30's on a vitara you don't need anything. Fit tyres remove the sway bar and go wheeling. If your don't clear somewhere trim to fit.
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SAS Vitara with hilux diffs
I had to make an assumption that the OP wanted to drive more technical terrain otherwise they wouldn't have been contemplating a solid axle swap, so I provided information on maximising the reliability of the IFS components with longer wheel travel. Whilst I agree that there's no need as a starting point, I have seen Vitaras break on 30's.
Author:  MrRocky [ Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SAS Vitara with hilux diffs
Well to be brutally honest most vits/gvs struggle to go places a sierra drives in 2wd. Im not sure what terrain you drive but the only thing that the vit has going for it in some scenarios is the longer wheelbase but this can prove just as much of a hinderance. Personally in 15+ years of wheeling soley with zooks in wa the only thing ive seen vits do is consistantly break cv's and struggle to drive basic terrain
Author:  shep [ Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SAS Vitara with hilux diffs
MrRocky wrote:
Well to be brutally honest most vits/gvs struggle to go places a sierra drives in 2wd. Im not sure what terrain you drive but the only thing that the vit has going for it in some scenarios is the longer wheelbase but this can prove just as much of a hinderance. Personally in 15+ years of wheeling soley with zooks in wa the only thing ive seen vits do is consistantly break cv's and struggle to drive basic terrain


Come to SA on the first weekend in October and you will see a vitara going places in 2wd that sierras struggle to do in 4WD.

Plus it's a great weekend.
Author:  MrRocky [ Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SAS Vitara with hilux diffs
Would be a slow drive crossing the nullabor in the 80, whilst im sure there is always an exception, w.a. has a shortage of well built sierras let alone any vitaras, that may be the reason for my perception none the less give me a sierra anyday over its softroader retarded sibling
Author:  shep [ Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SAS Vitara with hilux diffs
MrRocky wrote:
Would be a slow drive crossing the nullabor in the 80, whilst im sure there is always an exception, w.a. has a shortage of well built sierras let alone any vitaras, that may be the reason for my perception none the less give me a sierra anyday over its softroader retarded sibling


Pfft I have done the trip 3 times in my jimny and it's a bit further away for me. This year it will be at 130kph most of the way. :peaceout:
Author:  MrRocky [ Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SAS Vitara with hilux diffs
Pick me up ill bring teh beers
Author:  suzukitas [ Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SAS Vitara with hilux diffs
[quote="Gwagensteve"]

And guess what - the vitara has a very steep roll axis - the front is very low, a product of its strut suspension, and the rear is very high - at the ball joint on top of the rear axle housing. This makes for wildly unbalanced grip front to rear - the front steers well and stays flat in corners, while the rear rolls around and grip is low. As a result, vitaras, especially in SWB form, tend towards snap oversteer, and never feel particularly safe or settled.

I now i know the actual reason I love driving swb vitaras.. thanks Steve :D
Author:  vet 180 [ Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SAS Vitara with hilux diffs
suzukitas wrote:
Gwagensteve wrote:

And guess what - the vitara has a very steep roll axis - the front is very low, a product of its strut suspension, and the rear is very high - at the ball joint on top of the rear axle housing. This makes for wildly unbalanced grip front to rear - the front steers well and stays flat in corners, while the rear rolls around and grip is low. As a result, vitaras, especially in SWB form, tend towards snap oversteer, and never feel particularly safe or settled.

I now i know the actual reason I love driving swb vitaras.. thanks Steve :D

Love it! pompoms




shep wrote:
MrRocky wrote:
Would be a slow drive crossing the nullabor in the 80, whilst im sure there is always an exception, w.a. has a shortage of well built sierras let alone any vitaras, that may be the reason for my perception none the less give me a sierra anyday over its softroader retarded sibling


Pfft I have done the trip 3 times in my jimny and it's a bit further away for me. This year it will be at 130kph most of the way. :peaceout:


Don't tell lies, there is no way a jimny would make that trip.... 8)
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SAS Vitara with hilux diffs
suzukitas wrote:

I now i know the actual reason I love driving swb vitaras.. thanks Steve :D


I can only hope one day you get to drive something that handles properly then.
Ever wondered why the GV went to a 5 link rear?
Author:  suzukitas [ Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SAS Vitara with hilux diffs
I cant not say it.

I have driven nearly all Suzuki 4x4 in most forms of mod and the swb efi g16b vitara with stock 27' is defiantly my favourite, its like a hairdressers drift car :wink:
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SAS Vitara with hilux diffs
Just goes to show it doesn't matter how terrible something is, someone somewhere will think it's great. People also seem to think wrx's handle well too, an idea that's so pervasive people look at me like I'm crazy when I talk about how dire they are.

Thankfully it's not hard to improve the handling of a vitara- it's probably be only car ever that handles better once lifted.
Author:  ozzycouch [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SAS Vitara with hilux diffs
There is more than one person who thinks they are great :lol:

Image

pompoms pompoms pompoms
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SAS Vitara with hilux diffs
Photographed seconds before it spun off the track backwards :wink:
Author:  frak [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SAS Vitara with hilux diffs
I found the suspension info facinating. I was working on thw belief that the suspension lift i am doing this year would reduce general handling.

I obviously love my vitara having owned two. Its small without being too small for my needs.

A friend was recently waxing poetic about when he owned an sj because it was small enough to drive down motorcycle tracks practically.

I can't do that in my car but i can outdrive experienced 4x4ers whilst i still make no claims of being a decent 4xr driver myself yet.
Author:  ozzycouch [ Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SAS Vitara with hilux diffs
Gwagensteve wrote:
Photographed seconds before it spun off the track backwards :wink:

YES!! :rofl:
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