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| gti engine wont start.. Tried everything..help needed.. https://auszookers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=55313 |
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| Author: | Toomanycars [ Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | gti engine wont start.. Tried everything..help needed.. |
So new gti conversion has been going very well. Very happy with performance etc etc .. great on sand , mud , hill climbs etc . Had it's first outing to Glasshouse mountains power line track last weekend and did it easily.. perfect all day..Did an unexpected jump where bulldozer had changed the track, landed well and kept going didn't miss a beat all day..........but this could have loosened something !!!!!!!! Started easily the next morning and drove to work well, started well after work and drove home, while coasting down a small range, it seemed to loose power and by the bottom of the range the dash lights were on and engine had stopped. Had a quick look under the bonnet for loose wires, hoses off etc etc , all looked good. Closed bonnet, got back in, it started but only ran for 60 seconds and then stopped and hasn't started since. What we do know is ... It has good spark at all 4 plugs. The timing is good and belt still in place and tight. Fuel primes, and there is good pressure at the rail and plugs have fuel on them. Air filter clean, MAF clean. Compression is excellent. Swapped ecu, fault remains the same. Swapped coil, fault remains the same. Checked all connections and all are tight and in place. Coolant level is good, oil level is good. All fuses are good. I had a friend over today who has 5 GTis including 2 track cars. He does all his own work on his cars including race engine and transmission builds, and knows them backwards and also has a degree in electronic engineering, but he is not familiar with Sierras or gti conversions. He is an older gentleman and well respected on the redlinegti site. After almost 3 hours he ran out of time and ideas. He bought a tool to check the injectors but we ran out of time.. I am a bit disheartened because I thought if anyone would be able to fix it, he would . I can't quite understand why it wont start...It has good spark with fuel and air and compression but all it does and turn over with the occasional small backfire. We have ran out of ideas so any sensible thoughts would be appreciated..I suspect it is something very simple like a short or a wire off but what can just turn off the power to an otherwise healthy motor... If anyone is bored and up for a challenge, I am happy to pay for your efforts..Located Bris nth/wst. Cheers. |
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| Author: | JrZook [ Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: gti engine wont start.. Tried everything..help needed.. |
Toomanycars wrote: The timing is good and belt still in place and tight. So the ignition timing has been confirmed with a timing light and the cam timing is also spot on? |
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| Author: | Toomanycars [ Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: gti engine wont start.. Tried everything..help needed.. |
Yes.. Everything seems perfect. I think what we are looking at is a single small component that has just died..A gti engine will run without a tps or a maf so it's not those. The spark is good at all 4 plugs. Big frustrating mystery. It has been perfect every since we installed the second engine. I am assuming the injectors are working because the plugs are wet with fuel...There is no spring inside the timing cover that has made it jump a tooth and besides it was just coasting down a hill when it suddenly lost power... .aaaahhhh..Change of subject.. I see you live in Holland Park.. I lived in Holland Road for all of my childhood up till about 22....Great suburb.. |
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| Author: | losfer [ Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: gti engine wont start.. Tried everything..help needed.. |
Sounds like you need some sort of expert ? |
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| Author: | Toomanycars [ Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: gti engine wont start.. Tried everything..help needed.. |
Yes I agree.. My friend from redlinegti is coming over on Sunday with some special tool to check the injectors so tomorrow I will be taking off the fuel rail .. Not very confident doing stuff like this. I get too anxious about stuffing things up once I am in unfamiliar territory .. |
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| Author: | bob_oz [ Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: gti engine wont start.. Tried everything..help needed.. |
Any updates? my guess would be something simple like a power wire to ecu or earth wire. is your spark blue and strong or white/yellow? |
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| Author: | JrZook [ Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: gti engine wont start.. Tried everything..help needed.. |
Well if the ignition timing has been checked and confirmed and the cam timing has been checked and confirmed then you are only left with fueling. Tried spraying some starting fluid down its throat while cranking? Where abouts are you located? |
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| Author: | Toomanycars [ Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: gti engine wont start.. Tried everything..help needed.. |
Update.... Yesterday we took out the injectors and tested them all with a noid tester and they are all firing. Injectors all looked ok and seals are good. Fuel pressure is good. Spark is strong and blue ...Tried Start you $%#@*&% and still no go.. changed timing a little still no start. Air filter new. It is not logical that it doesn't start... |
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| Author: | Toomanycars [ Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: gti engine wont start.. Tried everything..help needed.. |
What if the rotor, which has a key way and a screw holding it onto the dizzy shaft, came loose ????? Would that cause it not to run because despite all the electronics,timing,good spark etc etc was happening at the wrong time because the rotor screw was loose and the rotor was loose on the shaft...Would it all seem perfect but not work... I think I will test that tomorrow by taking #1 plug out and while watching the plug, manually turn the engine over...It should fire when #1 gets to TDC...If it happens before or after TDC , when all the marks etc say it should fire, then isn't it reasonable to assume a loose rotor could be to blame... Every rotor I have ever seen has just clipped onto the shaft. This is the first I have seen to have a screw to hold it on and have play in it when the screw is loose... |
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| Author: | bumstein [ Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: gti engine wont start.. Tried everything..help needed.. |
Don’t forget it will likely fire at 10 degrees before TDC (or whatever the timing is set to). Sorry I don’t have a lot of insight into what your problems might be. |
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| Author: | shakes [ Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: gti engine wont start.. Tried everything..help needed.. |
Not familiar with these motors but... Can you see top of engine cranking over through the oil cap? Even may be worth removing rocker cover if it's easy. Have you ran an extra earth to the block/body to rule it out? Your comment regarding start you bastard not making it try to fire makes me lean towards spark or even compression, this should have it at the very least running like a diesel for a minute or two. Can you take the timing belt inspection off easily? This would be my first guess. |
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| Author: | JrZook [ Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: gti engine wont start.. Tried everything..help needed.. |
Again it sounds like your timing is wayy off (either ignition or cam) |
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| Author: | Toomanycars [ Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: gti engine wont start.. Tried everything..help needed.. |
Yes the top of the engine is cranking over. The timing belt is new , tight and all is perfect in there. You can easily take the top half off the timing cover and watch it turning. The bottom timing mark lines up at the same time the 2 OHcams line up. There is a new strong earth to the starter and 2 other smaller earth on the engine and remember it has been running perfectly for several weeks before it just stopped 10 days ago so there is a failure of something somewhere. |
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| Author: | Toomanycars [ Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: gti engine wont start.. Tried everything..help needed.. |
Well, it doesn't happen very often , but I was right...wohoo....The screw that holds the rotor onto the dizzy shaft had fallen out, then the small bit of rotor that acts as a keyway with the tip of the shaft disintegrated when the screw jammed and stopped the rotor from turning... so the rotor was stationary while the shaft kept spinning...again...wohoo.. I am off to Bursons after a visit to my gti guru friends house for him to sus it out. I am not convinced that the combination or dizzy cap and rotor is right as the center terminal in the dizzy cap seems not to be spring loaded and I thought that it was supposed to be..The carbon knob just sits flush with the top of the cap...normally you can push that in and out a smidge.. Pics to come..wohoooooo... |
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| Author: | Toomanycars [ Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: gti engine wont start.. Tried everything..help needed.. |
Sorry.. no pics. I was too busy putting it back together to take photos.. It was very reluctant to start as , even though I checked it twice, I managed to get lead for cylinder 2=3 around the wrong way. It did start but ran VERY roughly with 2 leads wrong. I turned it off after a couple of minutes and realized my mistake , swapped them around and it started easily and ran well, although the timing is out due to 10 daus of fiddling. It is making a ticking noise which sounds like a sticking lifter. I hope I haven't damaged anything by running it with the leads crossed over... Any thoughts on that ???? I will be really disappointed if , after all this effort, I have bent something.....aaaahhhh... |
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| Author: | bumstein [ Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: gti engine wont start.. Tried everything..help needed.. |
Pretty sure they’re a non-interference motor, is which case no you wouldn’t have damaged anything. Glad you found the problem!!! Congrats!! Now crack a beer and relax |
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| Author: | JrZook [ Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: gti engine wont start.. Tried everything..help needed.. |
Glad you solved it. Interestingly, I wonder how you had "good spark on all 4 plugs" with the rotor not moving.... |
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| Author: | Toomanycars [ Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: gti engine wont start.. Tried everything..help needed.. |
Yes I thought that as well ..I am not sure what the rotor was doing. It would have been turning and still sending a signal to the plugs but just not at the right time. The timing light just tell us that the timing is correct but it assumes that the rotor is in the correct position on the dizzy shaft. The spark from the coil is available all the time I think so when ever the rotor got in the right place it would send a spark. There was no way to tell that the spark was either late or early because the assumption is the timing is right because the "marks" all say it is.. My friend came over and reset the timing today and that "rattle" has gone.. It is idling perfect on 850. It is a bit random though because normally in the gti harness there is a reset connector thingy that you shot out with a paperclip or something to get it to "forget" and accept the new setting. Nothing I can do about that and it makes little difference, but can never be perfect while the ecu still has previous data in there... Sorry if my explanation is a bit newby... |
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| Author: | JrZook [ Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: gti engine wont start.. Tried everything..help needed.. |
Toomanycars wrote: It would have been turning and still sending a signal to the plugs but just not at the right time. The timing light just tell us that the timing is correct but it assumes that the rotor is in the correct position on the dizzy shaft. The spark from the coil is available all the time I think so when ever the rotor got in the right place it would send a spark. There was no way to tell that the spark was either late or early because the assumption is the timing is right because the "marks" all say it is.. So by the sound of it you had the timing light connected to the central rotor lead (coil output) and not the No1 cylinder lead as per standard procedure? |
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| Author: | Toomanycars [ Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: gti engine wont start.. Tried everything..help needed.. |
Hhhmmm wasn't me and I didn't notice which lead he had it on. |
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| Author: | cairns27 [ Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: gti engine wont start.. Tried everything..help needed.. |
So the first reply solved this problem. bye |
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| Author: | Toomanycars [ Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: gti engine wont start.. Tried everything..help needed.. |
So I rang my friend and I was wrong about the timing light. All the timing light was able to tell at the time was the engine was turning over at approx 170rpm. So what I should have said was all the timing marks were lining up and all 4 plugs were firing with a strong blue spark. When considering what the actual fault was, rotor turning on shaft, it was not unreasonable to assume with the available date eg. all marks correct and good spark, that the timing was not the issue, after all, when was the last time any of us have seen a rotor button slipping on the dizzy shaft...no one popped up to suggest that may be the problem... |
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| Author: | Gwagensteve [ Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: gti engine wont start.. Tried everything..help needed.. |
So the first reply solved the problem. You couldn’t/didn’t confirm the ignition timing was spot on, only the cam timing. The presence and strength of the spark was evident- the car would backfire but not start., the ignition timing wasn’t evident. |
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| Author: | Toomanycars [ Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: gti engine wont start.. Tried everything..help needed.. |
Again you are correct ...Quote from original post. "but all it does is turn over with the occasional small backfire". If it wasn't for the fact that the dizzy cap is almost impossible to get off,  we would have sorted this in 5 minutes.. Ahhh, if we had only known about the old "locating screw falling out of the rotor button" trick.... |
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| Author: | JrZook [ Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: gti engine wont start.. Tried everything..help needed.. |
Toomanycars wrote: we would have sorted this in 5 minutes.. Ahhh, if we had only known about the old "locating screw falling out of the rotor button" trick.... This is what I was getting too. If the timing light was used correctly (the basic standard procedure for any spark ignition engine) on No1 plug lead you or your "guru" mate would have found that the ignition timing marks were way off. With that info you would have systematically checked the cam timing and if that was correct, then only other way the timing would be out would be rotor phasing. Makes it even trickier to diagnose online when the info given is off eg Q: "Has the ignition timing been confirmed by a timing light" A: "Timing is good" 10 posts later and around in circles we go.........  
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| Author: | Toomanycars [ Thu Jul 26, 2018 3:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: gti engine wont start.. Tried everything..help needed.. |
Yes sorry you are correct.. IGNITION timing...vs.... CAM timing... |
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| Author: | atari4x4 [ Thu Jul 26, 2018 3:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: gti engine wont start.. Tried everything..help needed.. |
*insert pic of redonkulously lifted jdm delica here. |
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