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Clunky bum (Sierra) - JML floating axle failure
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Author:  alien [ Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Clunky bum (Sierra) - JML floating axle failure
Hey guys - ARB lockered rear is clunking around corners under acceleration. Worse turning right than left but sounds like its coming from the left wheel. Happens above 40km/hr up to about 70km/hr (haven't gone much faster around a bend than that!). It doesn't appear to increase in speed with wheel speed either?

I'm thinking it might be buggered side gears or something, but I jacked up each rear wheel and ran it in first gear, dropping the clutch and slamming the brake and couldn't get a clunk sound. Both wheels are smooth to turn by hand.

Rear drive shaft feels solid with no play or clunks when I turn it and the pinion end has a new uni anyway.

Only thing I've not yet tested is going around a corner with the locker engaged, but I don't realllllly want to do that on a dry road - which they are right now.

Any thoughts???
Author:  bumstein [ Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Clunky bum (Sierra)
alien wrote:
It doesn't appear to increase in speed with wheel speed either?


Doesn’t seem likey it would be driveline if its rate doesn’t increase with speed. Although perhaps diff spider gears might (only a guess as their rotation in relation to each other isn’t dependent on wheel speed but I’m not sure how air lockers are set up).

Have you checked all the bushes, dampers etc? If all external bits are tip top it might be time to look at the diff.
Author:  alien [ Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Clunky bum (Sierra)
Yeah, pretty sure it's spider gears as the diff is nearing 10 years old and is not driven gently.

I was just sorta kinda hoping someone would go "oh yeah that's simple, it's X and won't cost much to fix" hahaha

I've had broken spider gears before (pre-locker) and somewhat remember it being similar (though I shattered them last time so it was a grinding/clunking mess in any direction).
Author:  bumstein [ Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Clunky bum (Sierra)
alien wrote:
"oh yeah that's simple, it's X and won't cost much to fix"


Always the goal!! Haha

Rather than wrecked spider gears could it be a bearing clunk or something?
Author:  alien [ Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Clunky bum (Sierra)
Unlikely - the rear end is a joeblow full floater.
Author:  bumstein [ Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Clunky bum (Sierra)
Oh well!! Good luck!!
Author:  alien [ Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Clunky bum (Sierra)
haha thanks =)
Author:  alien [ Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Clunky bum (Sierra)
So ARB emailed me back after checking with their techs and said "Probably not the locker - look at the axles if it's not clunking all the time"

What are the odds an axle has lost its circlip and is moving around?? JML Full Floater remember...
Author:  BlueSuzy [ Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Clunky bum (Sierra)
Who knows?

alien wrote:
the rear end is a joeblow full floater.


Time to pull that junk out for a look.
Author:  alien [ Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Clunky bum (Sierra)
Pulled the hubs off both sides... left side which was the suspect is full of metal filings and the axle splines that meet the hub are all cracked and missing on at least 6-8 splines!!!! Other side has some evidence of metal filings but no visibly missing material on the splines.

So looks like new axles are in order =/
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Clunky bum (Sierra)
Ouch. Are you running stock GV drive flanges? Are the axles JML made?
Author:  alien [ Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Clunky bum (Sierra)
Yeah stock drive flanges/hubs on the vitara spindles with the JML supplied axles.

Not sure what the spindle is supposed to look like but behind the circlip there's a 'washer' that i don't think is supposed to be there - I'm wondering if that was part of the spindle and has broken off allowing the axle to slide out into the hub/flange and knock around:

Attachment:
cb35249c-0f0a-486a-9e39-b8d18d6c8a55.jpg


When i undid the other side the axle didn't readily just pull out like this one, though there's also traces of filings on that side the splines appear to be ok. I also didn't really yank on the other side's axle cos I had a hard time relocating the other side and didn't want to dick with it haha
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Clunky bum (Sierra) - JML floating axle failure
That’s a mess. I hate that use of the circlip to retain the axle location. It creates a weak point in the axle. The circlip is only required in the front of a vitara where it holds the stub and CV in place (like in the front of a Sierra) and it’s clearly wearing at the face of the spindle.
I suspect the splines have suffered from corrosion and wear from oxides and dirt. Were you running dust caps? Were the splines greased?

How worn are the splines in the drive flange? They should be toast of the axles are that worn.
Author:  alien [ Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Clunky bum (Sierra) - JML floating axle failure
Yep, running stock caps and there was sealant around the hub face (though clearly water has gotten in over the 5.5 years). Outside looks like this:
Image

Most interesting is the drive flange - which shows ZERO signs of wear. That makes me think the axles are brittle...

I looked up the vit spindle setup diagram and that washer behind the circlip is on those. I'm a bit confused about the drive flange/hub retaining the axle from just coming out - that seems a bit odd? The circlip stops it moving in to the diff, fine, but relying on the hub cap to hold it in? weird.
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Clunky bum (Sierra) - JML floating axle failure
I’ve welded caps onto my drive flanges to prevent the axles sliding out excessively. As I said, the circlip is really for assembly to stop the stub axle pulling out of the hub on an IFS car.

No full float rear axle uses circlips to retain it.

Dmeflix JML axles both broke simultaneously at the top of a scary climb due to the circlip groove weakening the axle. You’ll notice that your axles are larger diameter than the root of the circlip groove.

I’m but sure whether I’d put the failure down to brittleness or not, but the axleshaft material ornhear treatment doesn’t seem suitable I’ve run EN-26 and 300m axles and can confirm they eat drive flanges, as you’d expect.
Author:  alien [ Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Clunky bum (Sierra) - JML floating axle failure
Oh right, so the cap retaining the axle is normal?

I just want to know how it failed so if i replace them i can be confident it won't re-occur!

I'm getting onto tanshi about some replacements!
Author:  Gwagensteve [ Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Clunky bum (Sierra) - JML floating axle failure
No, the dust cap retaining the axle is not normal, it’s a function of using a front drive flange in the rear. Normal practice for the rear of a full float car is to use a flanged axle. In the front the CV or uni yoke prevents the axle sliding out too far, the circlip on the end of the shaft prevents it sliding too far in and binding the CV (although many consider this unnecessary)

Using Tanshis screw-on drive flanges or welding a cap on the flange is the best option for retaining the axleshaft in the rear. They can pop the dust caps off.
Author:  alien [ Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Clunky bum (Sierra) - JML floating axle failure
haha nice. Might get the caps zapped on when reassembling just in case!
Author:  alien [ Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Clunky bum (Sierra) - JML floating axle failure
Update: Throwing some "new" hubs/flanges on and the axles go from 3mm of play to almost none and the noise is gone. Perfect stop-gap solution to get back on the road while new axles are made..

So it seems the hub/flange had a little play on the axles and over time the splines on the hub have worn down dramatically resulting in the axle jumping splines and self destructing!
Author:  alien [ Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Clunky bum (Sierra) - JML floating axle failure
UPDATE: That hub replacement lasted all over 5mins and the clunk returned..

Turns out the front left shock's lower bushing was flogged out, and under just the right movement it'd bang on it's bolt instead of the rubber... that sent the sound through the leaf spring, down the chassis rail and sounded like it was coming from the back corner!!! New rubber bushing fitted and clunk is gone.

The axles are still stuffed but i'll keep an eye on them in the hope i get a LOT more time to source quotes and replacements rather than rushing to get it done.

Also pulled the diff center out to check that end of the axles and they look brand new, so no danger of the locker/diff being destroyed while driving it =)
Author:  jonno_racing [ Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Clunky bum (Sierra) - JML floating axle failure
Gwagensteve wrote:
Dmeflix JML axles both broke simultaneously at the top of a scary climb due to the circlip groove weakening the axle. You’ll notice that your axles are larger diameter than the root of the circlip groove.


that was without a doubt the most scary thing i have watched in person..
spend good money on axels those ones were absolutely trash.
Author:  tanshi [ Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Clunky bum (Sierra) - JML floating axle failure
Im having some personal stuff to deal with at the moment, but im hoping to get my ass in gear and trial a new supplier in the coming months. if they trial well ill be firing things back up.
Author:  markmo [ Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Clunky bum (Sierra) - JML floating axle failure
Gwagensteve wrote:
No, the dust cap retaining the axle is not normal, it’s a function of using a front drive flange in the rear. Normal practice for the rear of a full float car is to use a flanged axle.


I have a custom floaters and my axles don't have a circlip grooves but the Vitara drive flanges retain the axles as the splines are narrower than the axle/seal lip. Is this not the same as what you guys are running?

PS. yes i have a jimny
Author:  tanshi [ Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Clunky bum (Sierra) - JML floating axle failure
This is how I designed mine. the spline on the outer end is only 30mm or similar so that the axle cannot slide out.
Author:  alien [ Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Clunky bum (Sierra) - JML floating axle failure
Given I now have more time on my side, I'm very interested Tanshi.
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