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Engine Oil Sludge - Need recommendations
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Author:  Stuey [ Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:02 am ]
Post subject:  Engine Oil Sludge - Need recommendations
Hey guys,

Since buying my car around 2 years ago, I've always had my suspicions that the previous owner had been using a very cheap oil and/or not changing oil at a suitable servicing interval. I change my oil and filter every 5000km without fail and despite this (not to mention using a good synthetic oil) my dropped oil would always come out as black as black. Darker than you would expect anyhow.

Whilst my front diff has been out of my car for air locker reasons, I decided to drop the oil pan to find out just how bad things were. Well.....all I can say is what a mess.....

Image

My main concern was the fact the oil pickup was getting rather blocked so there was nothing to it other than to remove the oil pickup/strainer, remove the oil pump and set to work cleaning it all up. After many hours and much elbow grease it came up like this.

Image

Problem is if the bottom end was that bad, you can imagine the top end and my fears were as expected.

Image

Image

Now I'm no qualified mechanic, but I do know that there are a shit load of small little oil galleries waiting to be blocked full of crap so I am not about to attempt to clean this lot up. I dont want to just run flushes through the engine either as they will just cause chunks to break off and end up in the strainer as before.


So what can those with mechanical knowledge recommend? I have never had to pull a head off an engine before but I have been reading through a Haynes workshop manual and it seems "okish". I think I could nut my way through it. If I were to remove the timing chains, camshafts and lifters, would anyone recommend pulling the cylinder head and sending it to a reconditioners? Most work on exchange dont they? Is this something they could even clean up? Any drama with me cleaning the camshafts myself in a solvent bath and light scrubbing? For the record I will be changing the PCV valve as well.

Basically I want a solution to the problem, so as to get my engine back to as clean condtion as possible without a full teardown. Whatever trace sludge remains I can hopefully get with the regular oil changes and engine flushes. I've decided should the engine go bang I'll be swapping in a H25A V6 but regardless, I still want as longer lifespan as possible on this engine.

At the end of the day, its one of those chances I took buying the car sight unseen from over east. It was a low milage car and the body/trim etc is in fantastic condition. Goes to show how important it is to service your car regularly.

Any help appreciated.
Author:  atari4x4 [ Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Oil Sludge - Need recommendations
fuck me that's not oil, it's bitumen.
Author:  Stuey [ Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Oil Sludge - Need recommendations
Tell me about it. I'm not exactly thrilled to find my engine in such a shit state, unlike your fine example. Credit to the engine though, it has never let me down. No point whinging though....need to do what I can.
Author:  Stuey [ Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Oil Sludge - Need recommendations
This is where I need to tap in to the wealth of Suzuki knowledge from Royce, Steknig, Joeblow and the likes, to point me in the right direction....
Author:  royce [ Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Oil Sludge - Need recommendations
Castrol :)

flush it change it, flush it change it next time its due

dont worry about it, its not going to hurt anything and if it was going to cause drama it would of already
Author:  steak_knife [ Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Oil Sludge - Need recommendations
You did such a good job of the crank & pick up, If I was to do that eng, FULL strip, even tho the crank is clean where you can see it, there are oil gallery's that run through the crank thay you can't clean with out stripping.

Oil flush, oil flush, oil flush, or a complete strip. Thay are your 4 option's

If that was mine, full rebuild would be done, but I can be picky with my eng's.

Dose it blow smoke or use oil? is it noisy??
Author:  joeblow [ Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Oil Sludge - Need recommendations
well, to keep it as it is but make it better i would oil flush it (nulon), then run magnatec with a litre of moreys stabiliser and repeat every 2000 ish until at 10000 do the same but only use castrol synthetic from then on. the interior will look much better after that.

if you are going to take the head off do one thing......line the timing marks up and then zip tie the chain to the pullies like buggery before removal.
Author:  Stuey [ Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Oil Sludge - Need recommendations
steknig wrote:
You did such a good job of the crank & pick up, If I was to do that eng, FULL strip, even tho the crank is clean where you can see it, there are oil gallery's that run through the crank thay you can't clean with out stripping.

Oil flush, oil flush, oil flush, or a complete strip. Thay are your 4 option's

If that was mine, full rebuild would be done, but I can be picky with my eng's.

Dose it blow smoke or use oil? is it noisy??


No, No and No.

It has been remarkably good considering.


I have no idea on cost so what is a rebuild gonna cost roughly? You offering :P
Author:  Stuey [ Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Oil Sludge - Need recommendations
Stuey wrote:
This is where I need to tap in to the wealth of Suzuki knowledge from Royce, Steknig, Joeblow and the likes, to point me in the right direction....


lol...and look who replied. Thanks guys.
Author:  royce [ Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Oil Sludge - Need recommendations
Dont use castrol, engines prefer oil in their sump not the caking shit that already caused that mess :)
Author:  Stuey [ Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Oil Sludge - Need recommendations
joeblow wrote:
well, to keep it as it is but make it better i would oil flush it (nulon), then run magnatec with a litre of moreys stabiliser and repeat every 2000 ish until at 10000 do the same but only use castrol synthetic from then on. the interior will look much better after that.

if you are going to take the head off do one thing......line the timing marks up and then zip tie the chain to the pullies like buggery before removal.


I assume you mean to the lower pullies as the camshaft ones would be removed in taking off the head yeah? I take it they are a bitch to line up later? The haynes manual talks about colour marks on the chain, and shows notches on the pullies to match up to etc. I take it then it is still a mission even with this?

And this Moreys stuff... Ive seen the name before but Im not familiar with it. What exaclty does it do. I cant say Ive ever seen it on a shelf in the Auto shops Ive been in, but then again I was never specifically looking for it.
Author:  Brett [ Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Oil Sludge - Need recommendations
run some diesel oil in the engine for a few oil changes.

now for the booty fix. drain 2 ltrs of oil out and put a new filter on. put 2 ltrs of diesel fuel in it and idle the car for 2 or 3 min. drain it all and you'll be shocked at the shit that comes out of the engine. new filter new oil and your done. i did this for a lux i had. got so much crap out the 1st time i did it.
Author:  joeblow [ Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Oil Sludge - Need recommendations
Stuey wrote:
joeblow wrote:
well, to keep it as it is but make it better i would oil flush it (nulon), then run magnatec with a litre of moreys stabiliser and repeat every 2000 ish until at 10000 do the same but only use castrol synthetic from then on. the interior will look much better after that.

if you are going to take the head off do one thing......line the timing marks up and then zip tie the chain to the pullies like buggery before removal.


I assume you mean to the lower pullies as the camshaft ones would be removed in taking off the head yeah? I take it they are a bitch to line up later? The haynes manual talks about colour marks on the chain, and shows notches on the pullies to match up to etc. I take it then it is still a mission even with this?

And this Moreys stuff... Ive seen the name before but Im not familiar with it. What exaclty does it do. I cant say Ive ever seen it on a shelf in the Auto shops Ive been in, but then again I was never specifically looking for it.



one thing a very well respected and now retired suzuki servicing guru once taught me about late model zook motors........

use castrol..........(shut up royce :wink: )
use a litre of moreys.

moreys will give alot more consistancy to the oil in various conditions.
i've allways used these things on my vits and my green v6 has a bucket load of k's..........and very very quiet :D
Author:  Stuey [ Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Oil Sludge - Need recommendations
Brett wrote:
run some diesel oil in the engine for a few oil changes.

now for the booty fix. drain 2 ltrs of oil out and put a new filter on. put 2 ltrs of diesel fuel in it and idle the car for 2 or 3 min. drain it all and you'll be shocked at the shit that comes out of the engine. new filter new oil and your done. i did this for a lux i had. got so much crap out the 1st time i did it.


I've heard this before, same principle as engine flush really I guess. My concern is all that "crap" that comes out, doesnt include the new shit stuck in the oil pick up strainer etc. I know the filter will collect a lot of it but if you are dropping chunks out the sump plug that means the pump is bound to have sucked some up from the pan.
Author:  steak_knife [ Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Oil Sludge - Need recommendations
Stuey wrote:
steknig wrote:
You did such a good job of the crank & pick up, If I was to do that eng, FULL strip, even tho the crank is clean where you can see it, there are oil gallery's that run through the crank thay you can't clean with out stripping.

Oil flush, oil flush, oil flush, or a complete strip. Thay are your 4 option's

If that was mine, full rebuild would be done, but I can be picky with my eng's.

Dose it blow smoke or use oil? is it noisy??


No, No and No.

It has been remarkably good considering.


I have no idea on cost so what is a rebuild gonna cost roughly? You offering :P


Than follow joe's advice.

Hay joeblow, are you afraid of a timing chain??? :wink: 8O 8O 8O
Have you looked at the new 3.2's yet? Make these look like child's play.
Author:  joeblow [ Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Oil Sludge - Need recommendations
steknig wrote:
Hay joeblow, are you afraid of a timing chain??? :wink: 8O 8O 8O
Have you looked at the new 3.2's yet? Make these look like child's play.


i just could not be bothered lining up 18+ marks on all the gear on h series motors..............zip ties to the rescue...... :D
Author:  Stuey [ Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Oil Sludge - Need recommendations
joeblow wrote:
one thing a very well respected and now retired suzuki servicing guru once taught me about late model zook motors........

use castrol..........(shut up royce :wink: )
use a litre of moreys.

moreys will give alot more consistancy to the oil in various conditions.
i've allways used these things on my vits and my green v6 has a bucket load of k's..........and very very quiet :D


Oil is one of those topics open for a great deal of debate I guess. A lot of the feedback you get seems to be only based on ones bias opinion. What particular Catrol product do you suggest? Magnatec (which I think is only a semi syn) or the Edge stuff (5w-30). I've only really used Penrite up till now. On what do you base your rather emphasised opinion about Castrol Royce? A bad experience?
Author:  Stuey [ Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Oil Sludge - Need recommendations
And just to re cover old ground, I take it there is no point in getting the head recond to get rid of the majority of the shit on there? just rely on flushes is the verdict? (I dunno why it just seems so bandaid solution, when all that shit is sitting there ready to be taken off aggressively. I would have thought "get rid of most of the crap, then let the flushes take it from there" but if you recon flushes are enough.......I certainly know its cheaper at least!
Author:  atari4x4 [ Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Oil Sludge - Need recommendations
i'm sure you could get rid of the bulk of it by hand then do the oil flushes.
Author:  BJPK [ Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Oil Sludge - Need recommendations
if it were my car i would of never removed any of it.
id just change the oil regularly no flushes either.
iv never seen any good outcomes from upsetting that level of sludge.
seen plenty of blocked pickups, oil gallerys and low oil pressure lights on though.
this is on the late model camrys etc at my work they sludge up really quickely from lack of oil changes. try change the oil though and they usually block the pickup. cant maintain oil pressure and die.
Author:  BJPK [ Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Oil Sludge - Need recommendations
Stuey wrote:
And just to re cover old ground, I take it there is no point in getting the head recond to get rid of the majority of the shit on there? just rely on flushes is the verdict? (I dunno why it just seems so bandaid solution, when all that shit is sitting there ready to be taken off aggressively. I would have thought "get rid of most of the crap, then let the flushes take it from there" but if you recon flushes are enough.......I certainly know its cheaper at least!


why are you so worried about it? :roll:
it would be cheaper and easier to just put up with it and if it loses oil pressure one day (worst case scenario) you can then put in a low kay motor? :wink:
Author:  steak_knife [ Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Oil Sludge - Need recommendations
Stuey wrote:
And just to re cover old ground, I take it there is no point in getting the head recond to get rid of the majority of the shit on there? just rely on flushes is the verdict? (I dunno why it just seems so bandaid solution, when all that shit is sitting there ready to be taken off aggressively. I would have thought "get rid of most of the crap, then let the flushes take it from there" but if you recon flushes are enough.......I certainly know its cheaper at least!


FLUSH IT! If your goin to pull the head off, why stop there????
See my point? :roll:
Author:  Stuey [ Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Oil Sludge - Need recommendations
BJPK wrote:
why are you so worried about it? :roll:
it would be cheaper and easier to just put up with it and if it loses oil pressure one day (worst case scenario) you can then put in a low kay motor? :wink:


Cos I know it aint how it should be and I'm a fussy bastard... :lol: Quite honestly I'm just dissapointed to see it such a mess.
Author:  Stuey [ Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Oil Sludge - Need recommendations
steknig wrote:
Stuey wrote:
And just to re cover old ground, I take it there is no point in getting the head recond to get rid of the majority of the shit on there? just rely on flushes is the verdict? (I dunno why it just seems so bandaid solution, when all that shit is sitting there ready to be taken off aggressively. I would have thought "get rid of most of the crap, then let the flushes take it from there" but if you recon flushes are enough.......I certainly know its cheaper at least!


FLUSH IT! If your goin to pull the head off, why stop there????
See my point? :roll:


OK OK! I'll flush it. :oops: But what if I..........................




























only kidding!
Author:  steak_knife [ Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Oil Sludge - Need recommendations
:shocked: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

good. :wink:
Author:  Santos [ Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Oil Sludge - Need recommendations
hhmm i am no ' porfessional' but i would say clean the majority by hand and flush it several times. i myself use kerosene insead of Nulon.

The reason why is i noted nulon flush was blue, smelt ike kerosene and was as hard to ignite as kerosene on the concrete. i am not saying nulon IS kerosene but it definately a close cousin. (it works like an oil flush too)

kero is also $12 for 4l nt $15 for 500mls oil making oil changes every 2000km or less feasable
Author:  v.w.dave [ Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Oil Sludge - Need recommendations
I have to dissagree Castrol is one of the top 3 oils you can get. From what I have seen Mobile 1 , Motule and Castrol are the best synthetic motor oil sold.

As for a sludged engine, I useto work with a guy that worked in a few mines in Germany for a few years. He looked after the gerators and drills or something like that. It being germany in that time all of the machinery is run till it died. ANYWAY long story short

In the mines they would mix up a mixture of fuel and standard off the shelf ATF drain out about 25% of the oil in the motor and top it up with that mixture start the motor and let it run for about an hour at idle then at high revs for a few mins. Drain the oil then when it is still hot change the filter and fill the engine up with some cheep thicker oil and let it run the same way let it run at idle for about an hour then at high revs for a few mins. Drain the oil change the filter and then fill it up as you would at a service. Change the oil again after a few week or 1000 too 2000 ks.

You will be suprised how well it works I have used it and cleaned out engines that make this look like a clean motor. But be sure to watch you oil pressure. out of the 8 or so times I have done this I have had 2 oil pick ups clog up.

to second that if you put about 500ml of that same mixture in you engine a few days before you next oil change is will clean out any engine and I have done this a few times on my cars.
Author:  MacDaddy [ Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Oil Sludge - Need recommendations
When i first got my Vitara, 12 months ago, the oil in the engine was pretty bad... i got a bottle of NULON Engine flush, and poured it in, they say let the engine idle for 15mins, i left it in for an hour, and took the car for a 10min drive, before draining it, it was very black and thick, lumps came out the oil drain hole, and when the oil cooled down, it became as thick as treacle, or honey, lol, changed oil filter and put in new oil, NULON 15W 40, after a short drive i noticed a difference in engine performance !

So 3 months later, i did that same again used NULON Engine Flush, , the oil was alot less black this time, changed filter, filled with NULON 15W 40 again.

I did my oil again 3 months ago, used NULON Engine Flush, this time filled up with Valvoline 15W 40, as it was on special, and the oil still has not gone black, i can still see thru the oil !

So yes i highly recommend NULON Engine Flush, it does work, and worked surprisingly well !
Author:  303zuke [ Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Oil Sludge - Need recommendations
Stuey wrote:
My main concern was the fact the oil pickup was getting rather blocked so there was nothing to it other than to remove the oil pickup/strainer, remove the oil pump and set to work cleaning it all up. After many hours and much elbow grease it came up like this.

Image

That is Awesomely clean!!!!

I've booked you in at 9.00am Saturday to do my engine! :P
Author:  royce [ Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Oil Sludge - Need recommendations
Royces opinion of Castrol :)

point 1, very well respected suzuki guru noted that all the engines he saw with internal garbage were run on castrol

point 2, own experience as a mechanic, all the gunked up heaps of shit that used to roll in to be fixed had always been run on castrol

point 3, as above but the experience of somebody that has been doing it for many many years and even commented that once apon a time used to fix up lots of hondas that were sludged, all from the same dealer, all castrol

I wont start on any oil additives other than to say that why spend $30 on oil and $15 on a bottle of goo when $45 will get oil that beats both combined?

And why buy an oil thats marketted to a price point? I would rahter a bottle of stuff thats built to do a job and thats what it costs, FWIW youll find a lot of motul bottles and not a lot else in my garage ;-)

I was thinking about this last night, Perhaps try a diesel oil that meets the correct S grade and viscosity as well, they have much higher detergent levels so might help clean it up as well
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