[JonoW]

So researching different engine swaps for the sierra, and had a stupid idea...

Commondore V6 engine

... anyone think it could be possible? Without cutting/modding firewalls or chassis.

I see the americans have managed to put a V6 vortec engine into their samurais (but with an auto transmission, boooo) with whats seems to only be a body lift and transmission tunnel chop.

Would there be a short enough manual box to make this plausible?

On a side note i also found some guy who put a harley type vtwin into a samurai, how awesome would that sound?!
http://www.zukikrawlers.com/showthread.php?p=317282

[atari4x4]

yep, you're correct.... you had a stupid idea.

[Gwagensteve]

Did someone set the clock on my computer back to 2001?

There have been many attempts at putting that steaming turd of an engine in a sierra. Yes, it's been done. No, it wasn't a good idea, nor will it ever be. Yes it can be made to fit. By the time you sort the rest of the driveline to deal with the torque it would have been better to have started with something with 300Nm from the beginning.

The most "successful" commodore engined sierras have ended up about the same size and weight as a hilux, or bigger. It's pretty hard to argue there was much point in building a "small, light" sierra with a V6 if it ends up as big and heavy as a car that was easier to put the motor into in the first place.

There's a good reason why these swaps are done with autos - autos are superior in off road conditions, and help to hold the driveline together by lessening shock load. If you want to build a car to compete in tough truck, go for it. don't be surprised if you are beaten by a 1.3/1.6 though, as history has proven.

Steve.

[royce]

Gwagensteve wrote:

don't be surprised if you are beaten by a 1.3 though, as history has proven.

Steve.

armsup

I like driving v6 sierras over stuff though once its all done you really have something with bit of Sierra body left on it

[Fatzook]

This had a V6 crummydore motor in it.

Absolutely ruined it!

[JonoW]

haha i like atari's reply

yeah good point on the weight steve.
As far as torque problems what is it that will break, transfer case, drive shafts or diffs, or (D) All of the above?
How many extra torques can you get away with on the standard drivetrain?

Any opinions on a large Vtwin bike engine?

[Gwagensteve]

300Nm will break everything. You need to "upgrade" to hilux transfer/diffs/driveshafts etc.

It's the gearing that's the killer - our cars can be pretty reliable at 90:1 gearing and 130Nm, but that's with CrMo axles etc.

Let's look at a large V-twin - a 2.0litre S&S Harley based motor.

Peak power - 115HP @ 5300 rpm, torque 135Nm

A G16B (Baleno) does 93HP and 130Nm for what, $1500?

The bigger problem with a harley bike motor is that the firing is very close together in the cycle, so the motor develops short term peak torque of up to 2400Nm. That's fine in a (very) traction limited bike, but run that in a car with gears and lockers and you are looking at breakage.

Plus you have to cool it and attach it to a gearbox with a reverse gear etc.

I've seen the yanks run Hayabusa motors with some success, but I don't think a V twin is a good solution for a 4WD.

Steve.

[JonoW]

Sounds like some very reasonable advice there steve, thanks.

Any reliability issues with the extra power from just a G16B then?

Another question what engine is in the swift, M15A as far as I can tell??? Does that fit in a sierra?

[Gwagensteve]

No, the G16B is a good straightforward swap. It provides adequate power without creating too many problems. There are good reasons why they are so popular.

An M15 can be made to work, but you will require lots of Jimny accessories to make it work. It's a good swap into a Jimny (although the M18 makes more sense) but you'd prettu much want an whole jimny engine, gearbox, loom and computer on top of the swift stuff to make an M13 work in a sierra.

Steve.

[jonno_racing]

what type of terrain do you like to drive mate? what is your zook?

[JonoW]

Ok, so fairly different gearbox mating from the G series to M series engines i suppose.

That's a shame, so many more crashed swifts around than G16B engined cars.

[jonno_racing]

m15a has been done tho, and from memory it bolts in.. just need to use a jim box.

[JonoW]

jonno_racing wrote:

what type of terrain do you like to drive mate? what is your zook?

I have a coily. As far as terrain, done a few beach/fraser trips, lots of state forest runs (after its been raining ) and a couple of the 4wd parks although i get over the rocky stuff pretty quick, and i have no roll bar yet so not the biggest fan of the steep stuff (you should try kenilworth for freaking steep hill, that SUCD!).

The wife drives it to work now and then though so it still needs to be daily drivable, highway is where it spends 80% of its time.

[JonoW]

Is the jimny box same length? Could i get M series engine jimny box and leave transfer case back?

[Fatzook]

If you want more power, just fit a G16B. I know its been done to death, but its the least intrusive path, which also makes it the most reliable. Not to mention it is also legal.

IMO I ruined my sierra by fitting that big heavy sack of shit motor. It became a trailer queen. It was great fun when you were driving up verticle walls, but unless all your mates have similar vehicles, it does get boring to drive hard track with them, when you only get a challenge from extreme tracks.

[JonoW]

Fatzook wrote:

If you want more power, just fit a G16B. I know its been done to death, but its the least intrusive path, which also makes it the most reliable. Not to mention it is also legal.

IMO I ruined my sierra by fitting that big heavy sack of shit motor. It became a trailer queen. It was great fun when you were driving up verticle walls, but unless all your mates have similar vehicles, it does get boring to drive hard track with them, when you only get a challenge from extreme tracks.

Yeah seems like all the advice points towards the G16B, just wondering now if could maybe do the M15A cheaper considering their seems to be quite a few crashed swifts around (I'm sure theres no correlation of female P plate drivers and number of crashed swifts )

[Zook_Fan]

Fatzook wrote:

If you want more power, just fit a G16B. I know its been done to death, but its the least intrusive path, which also makes it the most reliable. Not to mention it is also legal.

IMO I ruined my sierra by fitting that big heavy sack of shit motor. It became a trailer queen. It was great fun when you were driving up verticle walls, but unless all your mates have similar vehicles, it does get boring to drive hard track with them, when you only get a challenge from extreme tracks.

So it made it capable enough that you could only get a challenge from extreme tracks but that's not a good thing

[royce]

JonoW wrote:

Fatzook wrote:

If you want more power, just fit a G16B. I know its been done to death, but its the least intrusive path, which also makes it the most reliable. Not to mention it is also legal.

IMO I ruined my sierra by fitting that big heavy sack of shit motor. It became a trailer queen. It was great fun when you were driving up verticle walls, but unless all your mates have similar vehicles, it does get boring to drive hard track with them, when you only get a challenge from extreme tracks.

Yeah seems like all the advice points towards the G16B, just wondering now if could maybe do the M15A cheaper considering their seems to be quite a few crashed swifts around (I'm sure theres no correlation of female P plate drivers and number of crashed swifts )

The M15 is a great idea on something like a Jimny that already has everything else setup to suit an M series engine but into a Sierra youll have to deal with the gearbox (Jimnny box with a Sierra rear grafted) on it as well as sorting out the wiring (Swift ECU has its immobiliser in the body control module) so it seems the easy way out is using Jimny M13 stuff (still immobilised but seperate box)

So then an M18 looks good cause the wiring might be easier but its still going to be a real headache

[Ben_Sierra]

Its a false economy looking at an M series motor because they are more readily available.

The motor is only one part of an engine conversion.

The extra fabrication, work and general messing around that will come with trying to put a slightly cheaper motor in will end up costing you more time, money and headaches in the long run.

[Gwagensteve]

Zook_Fan wrote:

So it made it capable enough that you could only get a challenge from extreme tracks but that's not a good thing

I think that's "on balance" - if it's a trailer queen, dragging it out to the few tracks where you can enjoy its strengths only seeks to highlight its weaknesses - everyone else there with you is working a bit harder on the same track but they drove there and back and fad fun on all the tracks on the way to the hard track.

Experience with the Vic club has taught me that the most fun is had when there are a bunch of reasonably similar setups. Having one car, for instance, that's massively more stable and can drive any line actually gets pretty boring - this was Mock's experience once he had finished Critta. With MK front springs all round, 3/4 rear, welded/welded, 36" swampers and no body to worry about, trips became kind of point-and-shoot. I know it sounds perfect, but in reality it's boring trailering something like that everywhere for 5 minutes of good driving.

Mock's next off road car was a 1.0 trayback on 31's and a welded front diff - It was heaps of fun - on balance more fun than Critta.

It's one of the reasons "capability" needs to be assessed as more than just what line you can take on what track. Right now I'm happy with the capability of the cars around me in the club in our hard terrain, so I want to work on better handling so I can have more fun on fast dirt, and be able to carry more speed up some of our greasy hills.

Just some thoughts. 140Kw/300Nm might be an answer to a question nobody really wanted answered in a sierra, regardless of how good an idea it looks.

[Zook_Fan]

I agree that if it is just a social rig than you need others to have fun with it but if you are looking at competitions which has been mentioned in this thread being better than everyone else is a good thing.

[Gwagensteve]

True, the question is is a sierra with a V6 better than a hilux with a V6... or a patrol with a V8? Probably not. I know which is more work though, and has more chance of failure.

Comps aren't anything like the real world. When building for a comp it's all about building within/around the rules and the terrain, which is normally pretty well known. That tends to limit the range of builds that are competitive.

Example - Tuff truck is basically a high traction event - so moderate HP can work with light weight. Winch challenge is a low traction event (with retarded rules) so compression travel and high HP is required.

As an example, a V6 is no real advantage for Tuff truck, but a Sierra is a disadvantage for winch challenge.

Once you go down the slippery slope of comps though, you're pretty much massively limiting the amount of seat time you can get in the car per year. In some cases (depending on what you build) you could be left with minutes per year of drive time.

Seems a bit dumb.

Steve.

[jimnydude]

g16 in my jimny went from 51 to 86 hp at wheels no other changes only motor

[Fatzook]

Zook_Fan wrote:

Fatzook wrote:

If you want more power, just fit a G16B. I know its been done to death, but its the least intrusive path, which also makes it the most reliable. Not to mention it is also legal.

IMO I ruined my sierra by fitting that big heavy sack of shit motor. It became a trailer queen. It was great fun when you were driving up verticle walls, but unless all your mates have similar vehicles, it does get boring to drive hard track with them, when you only get a challenge from extreme tracks. :?

So it made it capable enough that you could only get a challenge from extreme tracks but that's not a good thing

Thought I was quite clear on this point.

[Zook_Fan]

Fatzook wrote:

Zook_Fan wrote:

Fatzook wrote:

If you want more power, just fit a G16B. I know its been done to death, but its the least intrusive path, which also makes it the most reliable. Not to mention it is also legal.

IMO I ruined my sierra by fitting that big heavy sack of shit motor. It became a trailer queen. It was great fun when you were driving up verticle walls, but unless all your mates have similar vehicles, it does get boring to drive hard track with them, when you only get a challenge from extreme tracks. :?

So it made it capable enough that you could only get a challenge from extreme tracks but that's not a good thing

Thought I was quite clear on this point.

Just because you don't have mates that have similar vehicles doesn't mean the OP doesn't.

[Fatzook]

Zook_Fan wrote:

Fatzook wrote:

Zook_Fan wrote:

Fatzook wrote:

If you want more power, just fit a G16B. I know its been done to death, but its the least intrusive path, which also makes it the most reliable. Not to mention it is also legal.

IMO I ruined my sierra by fitting that big heavy sack of shit motor. It became a trailer queen. It was great fun when you were driving up verticle walls, but unless all your mates have similar vehicles, it does get boring to drive hard track with them, when you only get a challenge from extreme tracks. :?

So it made it capable enough that you could only get a challenge from extreme tracks but that's not a good thing

Thought I was quite clear on this point.

Just because you don't have mates that have similar vehicles doesn't mean the OP doesn't.

Well if you read my post properly instead of ommitting things, you'll find that I said "unless all your mates have similar vehicles". This allows the OP to apply my comments to his own situation if he feels the need to do so.

My comments were/are based on my own experiences with this ACTUAL conversion, not internet rumours and bandwagonism ( may not be an actual word ).

EDIT: Oh, and for the record, the engine swap did not make it more capable. The coilovers, bundera diffs, auto and 36" tyres did. All of these mods ( save for the tyres and V6) were still civilised enough to allow it to be street driven, and did not effect handling at all.

[SierraDan]

Zook_Fan wrote:

Fatzook wrote:

Zook_Fan wrote:

Fatzook wrote:

If you want more power, just fit a G16B. I know its been done to death, but its the least intrusive path, which also makes it the most reliable. Not to mention it is also legal.

IMO I ruined my sierra by fitting that big heavy sack of shit motor. It became a trailer queen. It was great fun when you were driving up verticle walls, but unless all your mates have similar vehicles, it does get boring to drive hard track with them, when you only get a challenge from extreme tracks. :?

So it made it capable enough that you could only get a challenge from extreme tracks but that's not a good thing

Thought I was quite clear on this point.

Just because you don't have mates that have similar vehicles doesn't mean the OP doesn't.

I reckon I have heaps more fun than my mates on 35-38" tyres locked and geared. They seem to just crawl effortlessly everywhere without lifting a wheel.

[JonoW]

Just to finish up this thread, i have taken the good advice given here and bought a baleno (g16b) 1500bucks 170000kms, not the bargain of the century but should have almost everything i need.

[shakes]

Nice to see someone taking the advice given

[jonno_racing]

just thinking the same thing!
g16b is a great motor for a sierra