[Chop]

If you don't get it after Technotron101's post above, you'll never get it.

[fordem]

GrandVitarasRock wrote:

It's funny how you say that facebook says you can do it etc........however speak to and watch any industry expert in the 4x4 game and EVERYONE of them says, including suspension experts that make a living out of doing lift kits and upgrades, and they all say that you should do a lift kit first of all so you can fit bigger tyres on.......... bigger foot print off road so less stress and strain and less wheels off the ground.

I do believe they would know their stuff.

I'll keep doing some more research.

Cheers

Do those "experts" have a product to sell you? Are they selling what's best for them or what's best for you? Are they selling you a lift kit because a lift kit is what you want to buy, and you want to buy said lift kit because that's what the experts say you need?

I want to specifically address that "less stress and strain and less wheels off the ground".

One of my vehicles is a Mitsubishi Pajero iO with Dobinsons lift springs fitted - it is still on the OE factory size tires.

The resting point of the suspension is lower so there is more clearance under the chassis rails, but that also means there is less down travel or droop in the suspension, which also means that I'm lifting wheels earlier. The reduced down travel also means that there is an increased probability of the suspension "topping out" and damaging the struts, which is something that other owners of this vehicle have experienced with lift springs from other big names in the suspension business.

OK - so I'm talking about a Mitsubishi in a Suzuki forum and it's lift springs and not a complete lift kit - consider it one example with which I have personal experience - search and you will find numerous examples of the Calmini products for Vitaras & Grand Vitaras failing for similar reasons.

Keep on doing your research...

[Gwagensteve]

I’m not aware of any expert that says “suspension lift fits bigger tyres”
Some of the 4” bracket kits for IFS utes will clear a bigger tyres becuase the brackets move the bumpstops down

[Gwagensteve]

And calmini are the “experts” who do say their suspension lifts for bigger tyres... becuase they use spring bind to limit uptravel. Clowns.

[Technotron101]

GrandVitarasRock wrote:

I get what you're saying

Sorry, but it doesn't sound like it.

There's an overwhelming number of people here telling you the same thing. We're not all wrong.

[ZUZUKI]

Hi GrandVitarasRock,

I see you are new....in the Noob section, but you have touched a raw nerve here.
I don't know how to find out where you are, but from the photos of lifted vehicles you posted, I suspect USA....& USA peoples of the 4wheelin variety often have some suspension theory that gets howled down in Aust as not being very good or effective.

Despite replies above, you can actually fit a 'lifted springs' to many vehicles, especially in the USA and achieve clearance for larger tyres, without rubbing the bodywork, however, as Gwagen touched on, to do this, the spring rate or the arch of the spring will be much greater than the stock springs.
This then goes along with: ultimate wheel travel & articulation will be reduced; ride will be stiff + the bigger tyres, dynamically, the vehicle will be a disaster for all but the smoothest boulevard cruises - but that is often the aim - poser / macho look, without actually being able to use the 4x4 off road, which is not what you're average Aussie is in to.

This is changing though, as the pumped up look of 'Raptor' type trucks is gaining the attention of the crowd that might have formerly been in a SS / HSV / XR / FPV ute - more bling & style over function.

This lifting for the sake of lift is seen as counterproductive, pointless & an all-round bad idea - especially so on a full independent set-up like the JB/JT Grand Vitara.

So, welcome to the forum, but mods & options were asked for, & the answer is: Suspension lift on a JB/JT Grand Vitara is not needed to fit the largest (practical) tyre (245/75R16 or 245/70R17), however, if you want to get the vulnerable under body a bit higher, then a +/-30mm suspension kit from the likes of OME (ARB) is a reasonable thing.

Have fun, Rgs, Michael

[ZUZUKI]

Ah, I re-read posts & see GrandVitarasRock is in NSW - almost like being from the USA.

The 2nd Gen GV really doesn't 'do' flex that well - suspension kit, or not & no, you can not do a 'body lift' - it has no chassis to lift the body from, however, it does look possible to space the front & rear subframes away from the body - probably illegal though & of dubious benefit, other than making the car look tall.

Rgs, Michael

[GrandVitarasRock]

fordem wrote:

GrandVitarasRock wrote:

Do those "experts" have a product to sell you? Are they selling what's best for them or what's best for you? Are they selling you a lift kit because a lift kit is what you want to buy, and you want to buy said lift kit because that's what the experts say you need?

No- these "experts" don't sell suspension for any vehicle LET ALONE a Suzuki Vitara LOL.......They are simply a team of full time off roaders who have a large and wide range off well set up off roading vehicles and anyone you speak to in their position says one of the most simple and best off road modifications you can make are ......... drum roll. ............ a lift kit. This allows for larger tyres ( not talking monster truck tyres but inch or two larger overall diameter ) which give a longer tread stance on the ground when aired down.

And also gives you a little extra clearance underneath the vehicle too which can only be beneficial.

Cheers guys for all the info thus far

[Gwagensteve]

You need to find new experts because they’re wrong. Perhaps you can ask them to explain how moving the test point of a suspension BUT NOT IT’S EXTENTS allows a larger tyre to fit.

Most standard 4wd’s have 25mm of clearance around the guards at full compression to allow for snowchains. If you’re willing to give up that clearance, you can often fit a 2” taller tyre without a problem. A “lift kit” has nothing to do with that.

Read that again for it to sink in, becuase that’s what you and those “experts” are failing to understand.

[GrandVitarasRock]

ZUZUKI wrote:

Hi GrandVitarasRock,

I see you are new....in the Noob section, but you have touched a raw nerve here.
I don't know how to find out where you are, but from the photos of lifted vehicles you posted, I suspect USA....& USA peoples of the 4wheelin variety often have some suspension theory that gets howled down in Aust as not being very good or effective.

So, welcome to the forum, but mods & options were asked for, & the answer is: Suspension lift on a JB/JT Grand Vitara is not needed to fit the largest (practical) tyre (245/75R16 or 245/70R17), however, if you want to get the vulnerable under body a bit higher, then a +/-30mm suspension kit from the likes of OME (ARB) is a reasonable thing.

Have fun, Rgs, Michael

From the USA .... ouch !

I'm not after a monster truck nor a flex machine for the sort of 4 wheel driving we do, the main reason was I have a brand new set of 235/80/R16 All terrains which I purchased for my previous 4x4 and it literally died completely a fortnight later so I have these brand new tyres ( cost me $700 odd ) and I figured I may as well use them on the Suzuki. Plus I want to try to get a little more height underneath the vehicle as I've dragged the exhaust and transfer case cross member across low rocks etc and want to get the belly up off the ground a little further - hence larger diameter tyres ( which is why I believed I may then also need a small lift kit to allow the larger diameter tyres ).

I just don't want to go to the hassle of fitting and balancing them and putting them on the car if it's going to create issues. My previous 4x4 fitted them no problem with room to spare under the guards and was hoping the same for this car.

Cheers guys

[fordem]

GrandVitarasRock wrote:

No- these "experts" don't sell suspension for any vehicle LET ALONE a Suzuki Vitara LOL.......They are simply a team of full time off roaders who have a large and wide range off well set up off roading vehicles and anyone you speak to in their position says one of the most simple and best off road modifications you can make are ......... drum roll. ............ a lift kit. This allows for larger tyres ( not talking monster truck tyres but inch or two larger overall diameter ) which give a longer tread stance on the ground when aired down.

And also gives you a little extra clearance underneath the vehicle too which can only be beneficial.

Cheers guys for all the info thus far

So exactly what is it that make these guys "experts"?

Let me try one more time ...

Let's take your vehicle and fit tires an inch or two larger in diameter, let's suppose those tires rub, and now let's add a lift kit so the tires no longer rub - this is what your "experts" are recommending - no?

Now - let's load your lifted vehicle and drive it - let's take it over a shallow, but smooth ditch, and we're crossing at an angle - the right front wheel goes down so the right front suspension extends - the vehicle is nose heavy (the engine is in front), so it "noses down", the left rear corner rises and the right rear suspension is now compressed, and carrying most of the weight in the back - let's now add a rock where the right rear tire has to pass, so that the rear tire has to rise to go over the rock

What is preventing the right rear wheel from being compressed and rising into it's original "pre-lift" position and rubbing inside the arch?

The answer is nothing - unless you have changed the position of the bump stop to prevent the wheel from rising to that point.

[Gwagensteve]

Here’s another way of viewing the same problem.

Let’s say your car has 8” of vertical wheel travel standard.
4” down and 4” up

Now we fit a “lift kit”

Suspension travel is now 6” up and 2” down.

Notice the total range of motion hasn’t changed, only the rest point.
How can this improve tyre clearance? The possible range of motion hasn’t changed and the extents haven’t changed, only the rest point. The rest point is only relevant when the car is stationary on level ground.

[pete_79]

I’m not a GV guy, but I believe you’ve answered your own question in an earlier post.
If your new tyres are less then 50mm bigger then the standard tyres you “should” be fine, depending on your rim offset. But I’m not a GV guy... [emoji6]

GrandVitarasRock wrote:

Plus I want to try to get a little more height underneath the vehicle as I've dragged the exhaust and transfer case cross member across low rocks etc and want to get the belly up off the ground a little further - hence larger diameter tyres

You’re absolutely on the right track there.
Unfortunately you’ve inadvertently stirred up the hornets nest with the other statements about lift kits.

Bigger tyres will absolutely give you better clearance under the diffs and the body, as you have said here.

Adding a lift kit as well as bigger tyres will give you even more clearance under the body, but obviously not any extra clearance under the diffs.

Unfortunately as others have already shouted at you, a lift kit will not help you fit the bigger tyres.

It’s your call, if you want to put in a lift kit, go for it. Just accept what has been said above about the science of lifts.
They are all correct in what they say and Steve’s comment about the changed up and down travel is about a simple as it can get.

Good luck with it all and make sure you let us know if there is any scrubbing with that sized tyre on stock suspension.
I’m sure there’s some GV guys out there that would like to know about another tyre size that they can use... [emoji6]

[GrandVitarasRock]

pete_79 wrote:

You’re absolutely on the right track there.

Bigger tyres will absolutely give you better clearance under the diffs and the body, as you have said here.

Adding a lift kit as well as bigger tyres will give you even more clearance under the body, but obviously not any extra clearance under the diffs.

So indirectly if you install a lift kit which raises the body up, you will therefore have more ( some ) room under the guards so larger tyres will fit under the guards...... that's what I was originally trying to ascertain with my very first question.

I know the 235/80/R16 are only 8mm ( on paper ) larger than the biggest suggested 245/75/R16 that others have said they run without any scrubbing and as the 235/80/R16 are 10mm narrower than the 245/75/R16, rubbing should not be too much of an issue I wouldn't expect ( or hope ).










[/quote]

[GrandVitarasRock]

You’re absolutely on the right track there.
Bigger tyres will absolutely give you better clearance under the diffs and the body, as you have said here.
Adding a lift kit as well as bigger tyres will give you even more clearance under the body, but obviously not any extra clearance under the diffs.[/quote]


So indirectly if you install a lift kit which raises the body up, you will therefore have more ( some ) room under the guards so larger tyres will fit under the guards...... that's what I was originally trying to ascertain with my very first question.

I know the 235/80/R16 are only 8mm ( on paper ) larger than the biggest suggested 245/75/R16 that others have said they run without any scrubbing and as the 235/80/R16 are 10mm narrower than the 245/75/R16, rubbing should not be too much of an issue I wouldn't expect ( or hope ).

If you go to this website - https://tiresize.com/comparison/ - there is actually a really good visual aid which shows the differences in the sizes .... and when you compare the 245/75/R16 to the 235/80/R16, there is literally only 8mm difference in overall height between the 2.

So finger crossed !!!










[/quote]

[Gwagensteve]

GrandVitarasRock wrote:

So indirectly if you install a lift kit which raises the body up, you will therefore have more ( some ) room under the guards so larger tyres will fit under the guards......

Only when the vehicle is stationary on level ground.

^Read that again.

When the suspension is in motion there is no increase in room under the guards.

^read that again.

You are being told the same thing over and over again. I can’t make it any clearer.

Having said that, your chosen tyre should fit wil only some light trimming of the front valance. This is not connected to suspension lift.

[boostedbrick]

Fit desired tyre, cut guards to suit, then lift it and call it done. Won't have any rubbing issues that way. Although I suspect this may be a bit to in depth for you.

[Slug]

Take the exhaust over the diff took 9 bends so not for the faint hearted got sick of putting the exhaust donut back on and flat pipe, rear muffler delete made a long range tank in its place, well 26ltrs
It's a GV3 so the 5 door has more area to play with at the very back but the diff area is the same, tight but posable

[fordem]

GrandVitarasRock wrote:

So indirectly if you install a lift kit which raises the body up, you will therefore have more ( some ) room under the guards so larger tyres will fit under the guards...... that's what I was originally trying to ascertain with my very first question.

Until the tyre moves up into the guard which it will do the first time you drive the vehicle over anything other than flat level ground.

[GrandVitarasRock]

Gwagensteve wrote:

GrandVitarasRock wrote:

So indirectly if you install a lift kit which raises the body up, you will therefore have more ( some ) room under the guards so larger tyres will fit under the guards......

Only when the vehicle is stationary on level ground.
^Read that again.
When the suspension is in motion there is no increase in room under the guards.
^read that again.

I get what you're saying again
and again
and again LOL

We may have to agree to disagree however ...... and the tyres fitting when stationary is fine by me. I mainly am after a biut more under body clearance and under exhaust etc clearance so the larger tyres and lift kit should be more than adequate......at the end of the day these cars aren't the most rugged well set up off road beasts like that of an 80 series Cruiser or a well set up Land Rover Discovery, I am simply trying to make the most of what we have and to be honest, am sick of turning back on tracks that my friends in Prado's continue down with their extra clearance.

Cheers

[bob_oz]

guys

limiting factors on bigger tyres are:
- hub to underneath of strut pan (lift kit wont change without custom struts
- tyre clearance to front and back of wheel well

245 75 16 will fit into the wheel well on stock suspension and will only rub under full lock
lifting the GV won't make much of a difference, if anything lifting too far decreases the rear wheel to front of rear wheel arch spacing

[GrandVitarasRock]

Thank you bob_oz - that's what I was after all along.

Cheers mate

[fordem]

What lifting too far does is cause premature failure of the front control arm bush.

[atari4x4]

i run the 40mm dobinson lift in my 2018 jb424 & 235/60r18 (29.1") tyres was 225/60r18 (28.6") & i get the tiniest bit of scrub on the inside of the front bumper on compression.

pretty sure this is proof that lift doesn't fit bigger tyres.

[Gwagensteve]

He “may have to agree to disagree” though.

[GrandVitarasRock]

atari4x4 wrote:

i run the 40mm dobinson lift in my 2018 jb424 & 235/60r18 (29.1") tyres was 225/60r18 (28.6") & i get the tiniest bit of scrub on the inside of the front bumper on compression.

pretty sure this is proof that lift doesn't fit bigger tyres.

Ok champ .....


And no, not hating because I don't understand.

That's what I love about these forums though - you post a question for general feedback and everyone becomes an expert .... and then get a litty shitty when their opinion doesn't agree with others..

Oh well, thanks anyway to those for their positive contribution........for the others who seem to know best, I have a large bowl of penises here that they're welcome to have for free !

Cheers

[atari4x4]

Haha, you're reading my signature?

It's quoted from a former member on here that was a total pelican & not aimed at you at all, but if the shoe fits... you might as well wear it.

Does it help the lift kit was installed by professionals? Do you wan't me to take pictures of where it scrubs, the 40mm lift kit & 13mm taller tyres to ease your burden.

[Gwagensteve]

Literally nobody in this thread shares your view GrandVitarasRock. It's not a discussion where all opposing views would be carefully considered- we're stating measurable facts.

Adjusting the rest point of the suspension does not change its extents.
If you don't change a suspension's extents, then you've literally done nothing to permit the fitment of a larger tyre.

By your logic, if you lowered the car you'd have to put smaller tyres on it because they wouldn't fit.

[ZUZUKI]

As touched on, the limiting factor on a NGV, above 245/75R16 / 245/70R17 is the coil seat on the front strut.
A bigger diameter tyre will hit this, unless: offset of rim is changed; custom struts are made with the coil seat smaller (to accept a smaller diameter coil) or the coil seat is mounted higher up the strut. If you used the std, original coil, you could achieve 'lift' by doing this - but the total available suspension movement would not change, and the front control arm rear bush would have a shorter than stock life.
I would get one of your 235/80 tyres mounted onto the spare wheel, bang it on the front & see how close it is to the coil seat.
If it clears, worry about any body rubbing (a RWC fail in Vic) & legalities of being too large an increase.
If you are happy to ignore those, go for it & let us know.
Rgs, Michael

[GrandVitarasRock]

Gwagensteve wrote:

By your logic, if you lowered the car you'd have to put smaller tyres on it because they wouldn't fit.

No, not correct. In that scenario, lowering a vehicle with the same sized wheel / tyre combo would in fact fill the guards more and inadvertently rub on the guards. I had a beautiful 1976 HX Premier that I lowered down 2 inches and whilst it handled like a 911 Porsche, the tyres did occasionally scrub the guards, both in the front arches and back. That scenario is exactly the opposite to what I was saying by lifting with a suspension kit. Lifting the guards higher would increase room ( to an extent that is ) under the guards which would mean that in a resting position there would be more room between the underside of the wheel arch and the top of the tyre. On full lock and / or articulation this may not be any different or more beeneficial but I was talking, originally, about simply using the larger tyres I already have to fit that vehicle which would allow an increase, even if be it small, in the under body clearance and the wheel arch clearance.

I am going to try the spare and see how we go.....I'll let you guys know the outcome.
Cheers