[303zuke]

The Super Carry doesn't have a solid gear lever that connects the gearstick to the gearbox, it uses a freaky 2 cable system to operate the selectors. As such, it is quite different in the selector group to ANY of the Suzuki 4wd/RWD boxes. It has a different process to select consecutive gears, so it swaps around of the functions of 2 of the selector rails/forks. (It should be noted that the SC has exactly the same Mainshaft/Countershaft arrangement as both the Maruti 4 speed and the 1.3 5 speed, it only the position of the forks in the selector group that have moved).

Highway gets it right when he says:

"Its seems that the far right (facing front of vehicle) shift rail is 3rd/4th, the middle one is 1st/2nd, and the far left one is 5th/R."

While the LJ80 and the 4 and 5 speed Sierra boxes have 1st/2nd on the right, 3rd/4th in the middle, and Rev (and 5th) on the left rail. How do they do this? (Highway-Star, you might already understand this, I am explaining it for others who need "Gearbox 1.01")

There 3 sets of Synchro hubs in these boxes, each with a fork that slides a splined ring over the synchros. The forwardmost one either locks the input shaft to the mainshaft to get 4th, or locks the 3rd gear to the mainshaft to get 3rd. The middle locks either the 2nd or 1st gear to tha mainshaft to get those gears, while the furthest one back selects Rev and 5th in the 5 speeds.

In the 4wds, the centre rail is the longest to reach the front synchro, the other 2 rails are shorter to reach the middle and rear synchros. But in the Super Carry, because of the weird cable shift, it is the right handrail that is the longest to select the front synchro, while the left and centre rails are short.

[303zuke]

Also, looking at the selector lever end of the Super Carry rails, you will see that the lever has two selector feet that engage the notches in the rails, and that a single foot (like on the LJ80) selector cannot swing through the centre rail!

What we have to do is swap over the right hand and centre rails, then use the forks from the Maruti/1.3 rails in their regular position. In this way the new "centre" rail will have a cutout for the single foot to swing through it, and it is the longest rail, so we need the Sierra fork arrangement. Still with me?

[303zuke]

Now, we're pretty close to finished. Because the new centre rail was originally on the right, it won't have a notch for the detent spring /ball on it's right hand side. You can do this prettily with a mill or such, but these things were beyond my resources so I used a cutting disc on a grinder to make a shallow groove. Smooth it off with a fine file so that it slides easily and doesn't bind on the detent pin.

Similarly, the notches for the selector foot would work as is, but they work much better with the spring-loaded ferrules from the Sierra. This will also give you a 5th-Neutral-Rev lockout so you can't go directly from to 5th to Rev. To do this you will need to measure and drill new holes for the 5mm Roll-pins. This was beyond the ability of my Black-and-Decker drill, so I put up with it and was careful about avoiding Rev on the move

[tanshi]

woo hoo this is what i said would need to happen :"D

[Highway-Star]

OK, front on picture of the gearbox bellhousings. You can see why 303zuke says the Super Carry gearbox is not bolt up to a LJ F motor, as the entire bellhousing has been rotated (note the starter position). Also the starter appears as if it bolts up to the rear of the bellhousing and not the front like all the 4wds are.


Thanks for the above write up 303zuke! Clears most things up. Hopefully when I pull it all apart, everything will make sense; just have to find some time now.

[Built4thrashing]

Would it be possible to put a toyota Crown electronic overdrive unit in place of the jackshaft? It was posted on here a while back.


just a thought.


B4T

[2stroker]

I just flicked through so I may have missed the answer to this question.

Seeing how you have a maruti box and seeing how this LJ of yours is not scared of a few mods and not going to be a standard example anyway why dont you just convert that maruti box to 5 speed using a 1300 sierra box, it is pretty straight forward and would have to be more robust.

[Highway-Star]

2stroker wrote:

I just flicked through so I may have missed the answer to this question.

Seeing how you have a maruti box and seeing how this LJ of yours is not scared of a few mods and not going to be a standard example anyway why dont you just convert that maruti box to 5 speed using a 1300 sierra box, it is pretty straight forward and would have to be more robust.

I never really said no to doing that, and I have thought about it; and almost did do it (I have a spare 5 speed in the shed). But this does keep the car looking more original (yeah I know, verging on moot); and requires a bit more thinking when building (which in my own twisted way, I do relish!).

[2stroker]

No, I understand twisted, twisted is good. You have the makings of one of each so two projects thats also good.

[Highway-Star]

OK, so I have finally started making my 5 speed box. I'll plug along on it over the next few weeks probably, so I'll add some pictures and details as I go.


This afternoon was pull apart time. I started with the SJ (Maruti) gearbox. Searched around its casing, and undid all the bolts. Then tapped the rear housing off:


I then proceeded to split the front housing. The main thing to note from this photos that I can see, is the layout and length of those shift rails that had me confused earlier on:




So then I proceeded to do the same with the SK Super Carry 5 speed:


Once again note the shift rail and fork layout, and compare to the SJ box. After comparing the 2, it all makes sense.




The main shafts lift straight out of both boxes then, but the layshaft is a bit more work. Take off the circlips (both ends on the 4 speed, just the front on the 5 speed). Then you need a bearing puller. The following pictures are of the 5 speed which is a little more work than the 4.

Pull off the very back 5th gear bearing (not present on the 4 speed):


Then the bearing, 5th gear and reverse gear can slide off of their spline:


Then tap the entire layshaft backward until the rear most of the 2 remaining bearings is out of the aluminium casing. Once again use a puller, and pull the bearing off:


Now the entire layshaft (which is one piece, apart from the bits just removed) can be moved about and pulled out of the lower half casing.

Thats all for now. As I said above I'll plod along with it. Either tomorrow or Wednesday I'll start looking at the work involved in the shifter rails that 303zuke outlines above. I also now know after splitting the case that I need a bearing kit for it!

[Highway-Star]

303zuke wrote:

The Type 3 Sierra (and SK410 "Super Carry" and MG410 Maruti) introduced the larger box that can use the 5 speed gears, although in the Type 3 and Maruti only 4 are installed and 1st gear is not quite as low as in the 5 speed gearset.

I also did a gear count when I pulled them apart today.

1st in the SK box is ~3.652:1 as expected
1st in the SJ box is ~3.139:1. So similar 1st to early type 1,2 SJ410 gearboxes.

Both boxes share the same 2nd, 3rd 4th and 5th (except the 4 speed of course!) as a 1.3L 5 speed.

[303zuke]

Keep going! Lovin' the pics.

[Highway-Star]

Didn't get to attacking the shift rods with a grinder today.... But I did pull them out and move them around a bit. So now here is the explanation with pictures.



Super Carry shifters as standard:


All the super Carry shifters have to come out, as the casing they are in is the wrong one. The 5th/Rev one pulls out easily, the other 2 rails require the shift forks to be taken off to be pulled out, which isn't such a big deal as they need to be swapped for Maruti ones anyway.

When they are out, layed out they look like this:


As above, the shift forks on 1-2 and 3-4 need to be swapped for the SJ/Maruti ones. The reason is because the 2 shift rails are swapping places in the case. Tha SJ maruti ones are already in this config. The difference can be seen below (Carry on the left, SJ on the right):


Swap the shift rails positions, and use the correct SJ forks, and the layout looks like this:



Before all this goes back together the 3-4 shift rail (which is now in the middle not the side) needs modifying. See the closest rail (which used to be in the middle) has the dedent position (and hole through it for the lock out pin), and the middle rail does not. This is the next step, replicate this in the 3-4 rail which is now in the middle.


Little bit unsure about this part, I'm pretty sure its the most "full on" part of this whole conversion. Anyway will throw myself at it in the next day or so and see how I go...

[Highway-Star]

Slow progress

Ordered my bearings yesterday, sadly fluffed up one of them. Got 6205 instead of a 6206 . So will have to wait till tomorrow before I can reassemble the main shaft. When I did order the bearings I "bag 'n' tagged" them all, as I wasn't sure whether a kit was available for this gearbox. Turns out its basically the same as an SJ gearbox, though one of the bearings was slightly different (don't know the details).

So here are the bearings (1 being closest to the front, 3 being the farthest back):
Mainshaft 1: 63/28N
Mainshaft 2: 6206NX9 (this is the one I don't have yet)
Mainshaft 3: 6305NSE
Layshaft 1: 62/28NRC3
Layshaft 2: 62/28C3
Layshaft 3: 6304-2NSE9
Primary roller bearing: 20x26x17S (I didn't replace any of the rollers inside the other mainshaft gears, as they all looked unworn).
Input Seal: 25-38-7
Output Seal: 32-42-10/15



So I reassembled the Carry van 5 speed layshaft, and put it into the Maruti lower half casing:


Method is fairly intuitive if you get as far as having it apart



Now for the shift rail modifying. I am still lacking confidence, so I tested a method on a bolt. Idea being if it worked, the shift rail will be the same just a harder steel so more time consuming. Looks OK:


Will have to be a bit more careful with the real product, as the bolt is slightly off square. Did it with a 14" metal cutoff saw and a very fine hand file

[tanshi]

looking good!

could you practice again on one of the rails your not going to use? just so your happy before doing the real thing!

[Highway-Star]

tanshi wrote:

could you practice again on one of the rails your not going to use? just so your happy before doing the real thing!

This has crossed my mind. Sacrifice some of the Indian crap in the name of research

[Highway-Star]

OK shifters finished (maybe).


I tried the grinder and file on a Maruti shift rail, and it didn't seem much harder than the bolt, so I felt confident to go ahead with the Carry rail.

2 Cuts with the cut off wheel:



Smoothed a bit with a fine flat file:



Hole for the lockout pin drilled with a drill press (this was fun to line up dead square... but I got it (relief!).



Put all the shifter assembly back together in the top half of the Maruti front case. Fiddly thing to get together with all the dedent balls and springs. And getting that pin in was a bit of fun too. Got it eventually though .



Now my only concern is the places of engagement for the shifter foot. Seems to be bigger gaps than I first considered between the rails. Wondering if I should put the block widening things (arh, whats are they really called?) from the Maruti box on the ends of the rails?

[tanshi]

are they just roll pinned in place?

will the be hard to fit.?

i cant see a probelm with doing it if you can, other wise the shift is going to be dicey!

[Highway-Star]

tanshi wrote:

are they just roll pinned in place?

will the be hard to fit.?

i cant see a probelm with doing it if you can, other wise the shift is going to be dicey!

Yeah they are. But they don't swap over perfectly. Well the 1st/2nd one does sort of. The 5th/Rev one is too wide, as the Maruti offsets the foot place on the centre rail to the RHS. Also the Maruti doesn't have the spring loaded one for 5th/Rev like 303zuke mentions above, as it doesn't have 5th gear to lock out...lol.

[Highway-Star]

Shifter rails sorted now!


So the Maruti shifter feet placed on the end of the Carry rails, looks like this:


So I swapped sides:



The foot "thing" (pardon my garbage terminology) on the RHS (1st 2nd rail) needs some grinding to clear the middle shift rail; as can be seen below with 2nd gear engaged.



Do some grinding, drill some 5mm holes (had to actually go out and buy a drill bit ), hammer in some roll pins, and ta-da!



Start assembling gearbox (will finish that off tomorrow).

No I don't know why I put the speedo drive gear back on.....


So Starting to get places! Possibly the most picture intensive yet uniformative gearbox "article" ever written! Hopefully it acts as a useful complement to 303zukes text which I used to do all this anyway . Also have a gearbox cradle and modified Jackshaft to go anyway... (and possibly some stuffing around with the shift linkage).

[atari4x4]

good tech

[303zuke]

One other point to mention which you may or may not have noticed yet. The diameter and spline count on the mainshaft/output shaft is different and you will need to change the yoke on the jackshaft.

The LJ50/LJ80/SJ40 type 1+2 family of boxes have a smaller shaft size than the SJ40 T3/Maruti/Super Carry/SJ413 boxes.

The Stockman(LJ80-II for our foreign lurkers) and SJ40 1+2 use internal circlips on the uni joint, and the "big" boxes use an external circlip, but the uni size is the same dimensions. It is a simple matter of using a stockman jackshaft section with internal clips mated to a "Big" box yoke using external clips. The actual uni joint used must be an internal clip type, RUJ1795.

[Highway-Star]

Yeah I knew I had to make a hybrid jackshaft, wasn't sure if I would be able to get away with an external circlp yoke on an internal circlip joint. So thats good news!

Yet to source myself a donor 1.3 jackshaft...

[Highway-Star]

OK, had a little bit of time this weekend. Looked at it, and didn't think hard enough...

Its now sitting bolted up to a dummy F8a block, and in a bare LJ81 chassis. Transfer case in place also for determining jackshaft dimensions:


I think the gearbox look too high! The jackshaft angle will be horrendous, and I also have concerns about tunnel clearance once the shifter is fitted (see below). The only way I see to lower it will be to cut out the centre part of the gearbox crossmember, which I don't want to do

OK Shifter mechanism. Pictured below is an LJ80 shifter mechanism on top of the Hybrid box. It can be seen that the height of the adapter required (one is needed anyway as bolts don't line up) is quite large. I am wondering if it is worth my while to shorten the shift leg on the LJ80 mechanism?



Now for not really an issue. I wanted to see if a standard 1.3 jackshaft may be short enough to use, with just LJ flange on the back.... nope.


Shortened 1L Jackshaft it is then, with the 1.3 yoke.

[Gonzo]

Excelent work Aaron top Tech

[tanshi]

Gonzo wrote:

Excelent work Aaron top Tech

BUY A ZOOK

[mrlj2u]

Top thread Mate, keep up the good work.

[Fity]

How did you go mounting the gearbox to the chassie?

I want to do this to my LJ81. Anyone got a Super Carry 5 speed sitting around?

[Highway-Star]

Fity wrote:

How did you go mounting the gearbox to the chassie?

I want to do this to my LJ81. Anyone got a Super Carry 5 speed sitting around?

I Haven't found a way I am happy with yet, so have given up for the short term... Will attack it again when I have a brain fart and figure it out...

[Fity]

Post some close up pics of the chassie and gearbox mounted in your LJ81 chassie and maybe we can brain fart together. Any tips on where to find a Super Carry gearbox?