[Mrhb2u]

I have an SJ70 that has a 16b conversion. It's time for a new radiator, question is what should I put back in it? Would a vitara one fit? Stay with the standard 1.3l type? Alloy or copper/steel? Any particular brand? also, what hoses am I to use, vitara or Sierra?

Cheers

[Damo]

What's wrong with your current radiator? Have you had it looked at? The Sierra rad is pretty good, and unless the core is really corroded you should be able to get it serviced for cheaper than a new rad will cost you. I see you're in Wynnum, so i'd suggest using these guys:

Tingalpa Radiator Service
3/55 Proprietary Street
Tingalpa QLD 4173
(07) 3890 2852

I have used them quite a few times and have had no hassles. Their charges were reasonable and they did a good job.

As for replacing the stock rad with something different, I wouldn't bother. Vit rads can be made to fit, but even for a Vit 1.6 it's not neccessary. I've run a 16v 1.6 in my Sierra for years with the stock rad with no problems.

[Drova]

Am jumpin in here, damo do you run
A thermo or the stock engine fan? I also
Have the 16v 1.6, am using the stock fan
ATM, but no hot days yet reckon the
Stock fan will ok?

[Gwagensteve]

X2 on a stock radiator. The key is to use a vitara viscous fan and ensure the fan shroud is a tight fit around the fan.

Thermo fans on stock sierra radiators are ghey unless you think an overheating car is cool.

Steve

[Damo]

Drova wrote:

Am jumpin in here, damo do you run
A thermo or the stock engine fan? I also
Have the 16v 1.6, am using the stock fan
ATM, but no hot days yet reckon the
Stock fan will ok?

I run the stock fan and viscous coupling that comes on the 16v engine. You also must run the stock 1.3 shroud that comes on the Sierra radiator.

[Drova]

Cool, I did mine the same, but I didnt use
The fan clutch, mines the fixed 1.3 fan.
What's the advantage in using the clutch fan?

[Gwagensteve]

The vitara fan is about twice the size. With the viscous clutch, it's not sucking HP when it's not needed, but when it is, it cools far more effectively.

It's quieter too.



Four blade 1.0 litre on the Left, Vitara Viscous in the centre, 5 Blade 1.3 on the right.

It's not hard to see which one will pull the most air.

Steve.

[stockman]

Gwagensteve wrote:

Four blade 1.0 litre on the Left, Vitara Viscous in the centre, 6 Blade 1.3 on the right.

[Gwagensteve]

D'oh! Well spotted!

[Shansh]

my stock one is fucked, just rebuilt my G13A, was thinking about chucking a bigger radiator with a couple of thermo's on it, bad idea?

my logic was;

no fan on the motor=no power wasted turning a fan
bigger radiator + 2 fans=more cooling capacity for low low speeds when wheeling


am i on completely the wrong tack with my thinking?

[alien]

thermos are only bad cos they die a lot easier than an engine fan... i've got a thermo on the front on my rad set to suck as well as the 1.3 engine fan... the thermo is on a switch in the dash so i can flick it when need be. I turn it off for any sort of water/mud crossing, and only really use it on hot days when crawling isnt getting enough air flow through the engine bay. (i run a 1.6 with no bodylift so the engine sits close to the bonnet, which is also black!).

i've had my thermo blow a fuse now and then after going through water - i think it was the resistance of the water rather than it getting wet, but either way i wouldnt want to rely soley on the electrics of a cheap fan to cool my engine.

[harvs]

Yeah electric thermo's have their disadvantages for 4wds, however if you know about them (like the water fording problem) in most cases you can work around them.

I'm not heavily set either way, personally I'm going to a thermo because I want to free up the belt drive for other things.

However some points on viscous fans:
- Sense the air temp coming through the radiator by the air heating a bi-metallic coil on the front which engages the viscous coupling above a certain temp.
- By the very nature they're never really fully engaged or disengaged. This means even when they're not needed, they still drag some power.
- The temp where they start to engage can be surprisingly low, I think the toyota ones were about 40C. So at 100kph on a hot oz day you're fan is going to be working unnecessarily at speed.
- By about 60kph ram air should (if you haven't completely rooted your airflow with some stupid mod) be more effective than any fan.

So well shrouded electric or electrically controlled engine driven fans can offer some advantages particularly with respect to fuel economy at highway speeds (hence almost all cars these days have thermos.) However they do need to be quality, and need to be controlled properly.

[Shansh]

harvs, i should have asked in my post which brand/type of fan to avoid/think about using, whatever i do use will definitely be good quality and controlled properly, not interested in using shitty parts

[atari4x4]

SPAL fan's are the only ones to buy if you want a thermo fan, but be aware there are some copies floating around.

This thread shows you the difference between a genuine one & the clone.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthre ... t=spal+fan

[Shansh]

Gus, cheers mate, as usual awesome info, if you ever need any electrical stuff done feel free to give me a buzz, my number is in your inbox

[atari4x4]

Shansh wrote:

Gus, cheers mate, as usual awesome info, if you ever need any electrical stuff done feel free to give me a buzz, my number is in your inbox

to easy, can you steal power off the grid for me?

[Shansh]

yeah no worries, as soon as i have finished doing it for myself

[harvs]

Yeah I've got NFI. I've still got an old school Davies Craig fan from back when they use to be good items. Apparently these days they're just cheap crap, however I've got no idea. My 15" has been on three cars now over about 10yrs and is still going strong

Apparetly a lot of people get the OEM thermos off EL falcons. I've even heard claims like they're the best fans one can put their hands on. Just whack it into google and you'll come up with threads of people putting them on all sorts of wierd and wacky things.

Just a note on controlling them. You really want to do it off the coolent temp, that is a sensor in the coolent. Some of the controllers have you putting a sensor on the radiator that measures the air temp. In this way you're always going to end up with a half arsed system that's just a bit easier to install. Its easy enough to add another coolent temp sensor...

[harvs]

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/FORD-NL-NF-F ... 19c8d07e61

[shep]

Gwagensteve wrote:

X2 on a stock radiator. The key is to use a vitara viscous fan and ensure the fan shroud is a tight fit around the fan.

Thermo fans on stock sierra radiators are ghey unless you think an overheating car is cool.

Steve

and yet i have had a thermo on sierras for over 5 years and never had a issue
with overheating.

i originally went to a thermo because when towing my camping trailer across
dry floodplains
i had to drive in 1st low at idle for 30 minutes at a time and the fan just didn't
suck enough air to keep it cool. thermo fixed that no worries.

people that have issues with thermo's either dont use the right fan or there cooling system
is in poor condition to start with.

[Mrhb2u]

Thanks for the info guys.... my stock radiator is f*rked so I'll have to replace it. I'm also running an aftermarket thermo (which came with the car) so after reading everything posted here I'm not sure which way to go now!

Shep raised a good point which I forgot to mention earlier and that is I will also be towing a 6 x 4 camping trailer from time to time... I wonder if a standard 1.3l alloy radiator and an EL fan (somehow modified?!) would be a good combo?

[Gwagensteve]

We have higher amibient temperatures down here than you do shep and much bigger, longer hills. There is a case for adding an additional pusher thermo to increase flow at low engine speeds, but if you are using a thermo only it won't flow as much air as the stock fan at high engine speeds, which is a problem if vehicle speed is low and engine speed and load is high, like climbing a long hill in the high country in low 2nd in summer.

The problem with using an EL thermo is building a mount and shroud for it, which will be quite a complicated job. Sierra radiators aren't the right shape to accept more than one thermo and the useable maximum is 14".

I ran a 14" magna thermo on the stock radiator = not enough. 14" Davies,Craig on the stock radiator=not enough.

My rear mount camry radiator runs thermos, but they were factory designed and I'm cooling a 660cc motor with a radiator from a 2.0 litre. they are also reliable because they aren't in the water and mud.

All up thermos aren't a cure all. I'll just reiterate, a thermo will not pull as much air as a mechanical fan. They never consume as much power which is proof they aren't moving as much air, and they aren't very efficient as to power the thermo you have to convert the crank HP into electrical power and then back into crank HP again. Add in controllers, relays, manual override switches (the dumbest thing ever - #1 cause of cooked motors) and the inherent unreliability of an electric motor sitting in the hottest, muddiest, wettest, and most vibration-heavy place in the car, and they start to look like an unacceptable risk for the sake of an "extra 3hp" or something.

I agree as a boost to the stock system they might have a place, but if you fit a vitara fan you won't need the boost to the system in the first place.

I (almost) guarantee that anyone with an overheating sierra, thermos or not, will have all their problems cured with a vitara fan and a proper shroud. It such an easy fix it's laughable.

Steve.

[harvs]

^^^ Not disagreeing with anything you've said, I'll quantify that "extra 3hp" in terms of fuel.

Typical gasoline engines will burn somewhere around 250ml per hp hour. If you're cruising and using and extra 3hp to drive the fan, you'll be burning about three quarters of a litre of fuel per hour just because of the fan.

From what I've read the figures are actually quite a bit less than this, more like 0.5hp, which is a bit better at only 1/8L per hour. And you can probably save far more than that by just not driving like a dickhead (not that I'm saying you are.)

[ajsr]

I'm with steve here, but more on the simlicity side.
why add an extra component to fail out in the bush when its not required?
engine fans work very well and basicly work forever , they dont care if you dunk them in water or if your alternator lets go and your limping home on batt power.

[remydog05]

I ran a stock Rad in with my G16b for 4 years and it never got hot, even on 40plus days. I also had the 1.6 fan.

[Gwagensteve]

harvs wrote:

^^^ Not disagreeing with anything you've said, I'll quantify that "extra 3hp" in terms of fuel.

Typical gasoline engines will burn somewhere around 250ml per hp hour. If you're cruising and using and extra 3hp to drive the fan, you'll be burning about three quarters of a litre of fuel per hour just because of the fan.

From what I've read the figures are actually quite a bit less than this, more like 0.5hp, which is a bit better at only 1/8L per hour. And you can probably save far more than that by just not driving like a dickhead (not that I'm saying you are.)

More than the actual numbers, I think the real issue is with a mechanical fan that's still sapping horsepower when its not required. Compare that to a viscous fan that always draws some crank HP (but only the full load when required) and it's a clear win for the viscous fan.

It's a bit more complicated with a thermo. For a thermo to pull the same amount of air as a viscous fan, it will consume about twice the crank HP of the viscous fan. Sure it does it spread out over a longer time via the battery, but the power consumption per task is greater due to the efficiency losses of the alternator and electric motor.

Nothing's for free.

Additionally, if you are running a thermo based on the fact it can run at peak efficiency at low engine speeds, you'll want to look very hard at your alternator's ability to deliver amps at low engine speed. With all lights on and the thermo's running, my alternator has to deliver about 45 amps to keep up with demand (confirmed with a clamp meter) A stock sierra alternator can't deliever that once hot at 3000rpm, let alone 1500rpm.

Food for thought.

I'll take the simplicity/reliability of a viscous fan over a thermo wherever it's possible.

[Shansh]

^^^ one of the reasons i am going for a 110A alternator, might go the viscous though, especially for the water reasons, dunno, will have a think which way im gonna jump

[harvs]

Gwagensteve wrote:

harvs wrote:

^^^ Not disagreeing with anything you've said, I'll quantify that "extra 3hp" in terms of fuel.

Typical gasoline engines will burn somewhere around 250ml per hp hour. If you're cruising and using and extra 3hp to drive the fan, you'll be burning about three quarters of a litre of fuel per hour just because of the fan.

From what I've read the figures are actually quite a bit less than this, more like 0.5hp, which is a bit better at only 1/8L per hour. And you can probably save far more than that by just not driving like a dickhead (not that I'm saying you are.)

More than the actual numbers, I think the real issue is with a mechanical fan that's still sapping horsepower when its not required. Compare that to a viscous fan that always draws some crank HP (but only the full load when required) and it's a clear win for the viscous fan.

It's a bit more complicated with a thermo. For a thermo to pull the same amount of air as a viscous fan, it will consume about twice the crank HP of the viscous fan. Sure it does it spread out over a longer time via the battery, but the power consumption per task is greater due to the efficiency losses of the alternator and electric motor.

Nothing's for free.

Additionally, if you are running a thermo based on the fact it can run at peak efficiency at low engine speeds, you'll want to look very hard at your alternator's ability to deliver amps at low engine speed. With all lights on and the thermo's running, my alternator has to deliver about 45 amps to keep up with demand (confirmed with a clamp meter) A stock sierra alternator can't deliever that once hot at 3000rpm, let alone 1500rpm.

Food for thought.

I'll take the simplicity/reliability of a viscous fan over a thermo wherever it's possible.

Yep a thermo is probably about 50% efficent in terms of power applied to the fan.

Pretty sure a viscous coupling isn't a torque multiplier in the same way torque converter is, just a slip mechanism, happy to be corrected though. Depending on engine speed they're not too efficent un to themselves. i.e. they don't "lockup" or fully release.

At low vehicle speed I agree there's little or nothing to be gained.

At highway speed where any fan running is a waste of fuel, the thermos are a clear winner. Which is why from my understanding pretty much every OEM uses them today, where selling a car on fuel efficency is king.

Which, if it was available on the car market at a reasonable price, the electrically controlled fan clutchs large trucks use would be go. Made by Horton usually. However given I've been quoted >$350 for a replacement viscous coupling before, I don't even want to think what a electric cluch would be worth

[Gwagensteve]

I agree that very accurate thermal management and a drive towards low noise and high economy has almost eliminated the engine driven fan from road cars (along with widespread use of transverse motors), They are still pretty common in commercials and commercial 4WD's.

I have often wondered about running a clutch fan after seeing them in Mercedes passenger cars. Most pull-it-yourself wreckers have plenty of old Mercs in them now, so getting hold of one wouldn't be too hard, however, they aren't really easily adaptable to a G series motor where the fan runs directly off the water pump - they need to run on their own idler if you get what I mean.

Merc fans are also huge - way too big for a sierra/vitara.

Steve.

[royce]

I reckon you have rocks in your head to trust the running temp and life of an engine that's already finicky with being run too hot to something that isn't the simplest failsafe method possible, which just so happens to flow the most air

The only good thing about the thermo on my sierra was I got to see more countryside cause I could only do 90 before it started running hot, and before all you noobs pipe up with what I did wrong just remember some people have been doing this on these cars for a long time and have tried it all