[oneinkedgeek]

Hey guys, in the process of sorting bar work and I want to organise a winch prior so it can be made with the winch......

I went into supercheap the other day and had a look at a 9500lb one, and it was craaaaaaaazy heavy, I've got a little 1600 and I'm Conscious of weight..... My question is..... Do u reckon a 2500lb which will be sufficient ?

I'm not planning on trying to winch out patrols or hilux's , just get me and other Zuk mates out of the mud

Thoughts?

[Daves4wd]

I'd be looking at a 6000 minimum... You never know what you'll get yourself into.... I've got a aldi 9,500 and only pulled out zooks dos the job sweet could be faster and that's about it...

[Matthew]

Definitely not.

Have a search, there are plenty of winch topics, the general rule of thumb is minimum 1.5 X GVM

[Gwagensteve]

X2.

6-8K is ideal. Beyond that it's a trade off of winch speed vs capacity. Some people don't like the idea that the winch slows noticeably under load, but that's normal - warn rate their winches at something crazy like 2.4m/minute at full load, so sure, you can run a 9.5 or 12K winch and it won't slow down much under load, but the trade off is a slower winch all the time.

IMHO 2.5K is dangerous. You could winch the car into a position where winching forward isn't possible but releasing the winch load might put the car into a very precarious position. I've seen this happen and it was super scary.

Personally, I am more into "assist" winching than dead weight winching so my winch will end up on the light side of 6K, but it will be very fast, however, my car is generally capable enough for my needs and I am conservative in mud (for example) so I'm not often trying to winch a dead weight. That's not the decision I'd make for a close-to standard car though.

Just some thoughts.

Steve.

[ozhummer]

I have a 12000 lb on my SWB Vitara (ARB Bar) - it's a Tigerz11 with Dynamic. It's not too heavy, the steel cable is the weighty part of most winches. It's massive overkill but it fits and i would rather a winch that is at 20% rather than pushing a small one to its limit (and beyond). 2.5K is not really a winch for vehicle recovery - it's more for mounting on a boat trailer to pull the boat onto the trailer.

BTW: THe Tigerz11 winch (same as Roo Systems), is pretty good quality (esp for $500 with dynamic rope) . It's prob not as good as a Warn, but do you want to spend over 2K? - also the warn design has not changed in 20 years, they are still using their old faithfull 4.6 hp series wound motor in pretty much all their winches from 6000 to 12000 lb - they just change the gearing to come up with the rating - the exception is the XP range which use a larger 6hp. The Tigerz use a more modern motor design.

[Matthew]

I think you mean dyneema, although I doubt a tigerz would have genuine dyneema.

Dynamic rope is the last thing you want on a winch.

[SuziBlu]

Dyneema is only a brand name, its not a rope, "Dyneema" were the ones who made it, all it is is HDPE, many available now. (High Density Poly Etheline)

Some are now sheething the rope to give it better wear characteristics, as hdpe lacks badly in wear, and out of a winch, if the fair-leads are not working perfect, and hurt this very fast.

HDPE is not really all that expensive, ok per kilo it looks very expensive, but when you buy it by the kilo, you get an awful lot of material as it is so very light.

Matthew, im not sure of what dynamic is, but is it dynamica ? just HDPE

[ozhummer]

Dyneema is right - I must be tired ... Oh and Tigerz11 does use genuine Dyneema .. It will last, but needs to be looked after. cleaned, oiled etc ..

[Matthew]

SuziBlu wrote:

im not sure of what dynamic is, but is it dynamica ? just HDPE

I'm referring to the rope types/characteristics rather than brands, dynamic rope stretches, as opposed to static rope that has minimal stretch.

ozhummer wrote:

Dyneema is right - I must be tired ... Oh and Tigerz11 does use genuine Dyneema .. It will last, but needs to be looked after. cleaned, oiled etc ..

I'm pleasantly surprised that Tigerz uses Dyeema.

[SuziBlu]

I have never heard of the word dynamic used in rope context, interesting.

Rope is my life, from designing and making nets, to mooring systems, and tow set ups, just about every type of rope and near size I have used.

Dyneema, tho very strong, and less then 3% elongation at destruction, has a lot of limitations, but horses for courses.

[Gwagensteve]

Dynamic and static ropes are used for climbing/abseiling, as per Mathews comments.

Regardless, if someone sold a cheap 16k winch, would that be cool for a Sierra? Where does it stop? What's so bad about a 6k or 8k winch?

Are people buying 12k winches because they know the winches are cheap and assume that by buying a winch twice the size required it might just do the job?

Steve.

Personally, I think cheap winches are ruining 4wding, but that's just me.

[SuziBlu]

Steve, yes, old saying, you get what you pay for.

Some may well think, it may never be used, but Ill get a cheap one, just in case, then by the time they go to use it, is cactus.

[Matthew]

The Warn m6000 was the pick of the bunch IMO, unfortunately I believe it's been discontinued now.

[bazooked]

warn 6000 all the way!

[Gwagensteve]

/Hijack on: It's not really anything to do with getting what you pay for, it's more that inexperienced drivers are buying unreliable 456,000 lb winches which are slower than time itself, and set out to "drive" tracks they have neither the vehicle or experience to drive.

In the old days winches were expensive so you built a car and bought a winch afterwards.

Steve. /hijack off.

[tassie jeeper]

http://www.warn.com/truck/winches/src/9.0Rc.shtml light weight and plenty enough grunt

[SierraDan]

Gwagensteve wrote:

In the old days winches were expensive so you built a car and bought a winch afterwards.

Still true in my opinion. An assist winch would be sweet, but they are expensive and a car needs building

[Gwagensteve]

True that. There always seems to be other things to do before putting my winch together.

[tassie jeeper]

Gwagensteve wrote:

True that. There always seems to be other things to do before putting my winch together.

i had diff locks front and rear and put my money down on a roof rack before the winch

[droverdave]

My limited experience with winches involves my mate buying a real cheap ebay one ($150 delivered) for his ~2000 grand vitara, and us backyard fabricators welding up a frame out of 5mm angle bolting it between the chassis rails. I did some calcs on our frame design and its WAYYY stronger than the winch was rated for. the winch is really quite small, rated at 4000lb. this one think:

(though his has steel cable, not rope, so im not sure)

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Wireless-400 ... 2609577%26

He bought it on a whim, bit of a "hey that would be cool to have", and it was a fun project building/fabricating the frame.

The internet sais that its probably underrated for the car. However it did pull his grand vitara out of a mud hole with the wire attached to a fallen tree, very successfully. (tree was the only thing close enough!). he had diff lock in the back, but didnt seem to help much. It's a pretty good setup car, i dont know specificcs, but its got lift kits, big mud tyres, and long shocks etc.

(i didnt want to drive my drover in for a snatch as we were afraid i would get stuck too!)

Would he have driven into the mud hole without the winch? probably. The winch sure is low quality, but if it lasts 2 years of limited use. Then it probably paid for itself.

The winch wasn't needed but it was a fun project (probably $250 total cost). And it was fun giving it a go in the mud.

[ozhummer]

I had an ARB Magnum 9K on a Pajero a few years ago - when I came to use it, the gears were all seized and I was buggered. The winch was 6 months old and a heap - it was marketed to me as a rebadged Warn. After 6 months even without use, you would expect a winch to work.
The Tigerz11 12K ihas a 6hp motor, I have checked the quality (yes I pulled it all apart) and I'm impressed - I did add a bit more grease, but that me being a bit anal. If you look at all the warn winches you will see they all use a 4.6HP motor - even the 16.5K use the 4.6 and has a line pull of 1m/min ! that is slow!..
For Gwagensteve to say cheap winches are ruining 4wding is ridiculous - what it is doing is providing 4wders the ability to add another piece of recovery/safety equipment to their arsenal at an affordable price. If you want a comp truck winch then spend 5k on a warn high mount.
Times are changing, competition is growing and some companies just don't want to keep up..

Off course, in a couple of months when I'm tooling up the old telegraph track up the cape and I get bogged in a water crossing and my winch is buggered I may retract my thoughts but until then ....

[Jezza86]

i bought a cheap 9000 super crap one, had it die on me the day after it went on. upon returnign it i found the 9500lb winches had dodgy gearboxes and the manager of the store knew it so gave me a 12000lb one cos i didn't have a receipt for the 9500. the current super cheap 9500lb winches now share the same gearbox as the 12000 lb winch.
the 12000 comes with rope standard and is almost 15kg lighter in reality.

both have absolutely crap plastic solenoid boxes that dont even stay dry inside when its raining and the cabling from the solenoid box to the winch when installed on a arb bar, is too short and requires alteration.
as for winching wrecking 4x4ing, i don't really see it. sometimes out remote where i am there is noone you can call, no phone reception, no one within uhf. i see it a safety gear. the winch is there as a last resort for the times you get caught out learning how to drive something tougher then your used to. or you find yourself in a unexpected situation.

[SierraDan]

Dont think thats what Steve meant about it ruining it.
More that people are going out and buying ya UHF and a winch so when they get stuck they can attempt a self recovery.
Rather than building a car to be capable and getting a winch later for the just in case use, not the every weekend because you drive a stock car use.

[Critical Energy]

Off topic sorry, but....
Are all winches built to a standard "pattern"? As in do they all fit the same bullbar mounting? And lastly, does anyone have the "pattern" & dimensions etc if they are?
Going to refurb my bullbar and make it winch compatible while i'm at it

Rich

[reeceh]

Best bet would be to ask joeblow. He's designed a few winch bars so he would have the dimensions.

[atari4x4]

from my interweb travels i believe there area a few variations depending on who's made the winch.

[Jezza86]

the tigerz 11 5 and 6000lb winches have a narrower drum but i dont think they even sell them anymore.
the grande 9000 from tigerz states its Mounting Bolt Pattern is 254mm × 114.3mm
the mounting bolt pattern on my 12000 is 254mm x 114.3mm, which is the same as the ARB winch-bar mounts.

[got_bar_work]

Cheap winches are dangerous.
i had the brake let go on my tiger's and almost flip over backwards .
What makes them even more dangerous is people who are not professionaly trained in recovery going out and buying one with no idea on how to use it safely

[Gwagensteve]

ozhummer wrote:

For Gwagensteve to say cheap winches are ruining 4wding is ridiculous - what it is doing is providing 4wders the ability to add another piece of recovery/safety equipment to their arsenal at an affordable price...

Standing around waiting on tracks for randoms in underprepared cars to drag their junk up hills behind junk winches is what's changed. Tyres are still expensive. Lockers are still expensive. Winches are now a 1/4 of what they were. That's changed where in the forest we see a certain level of car.

I'm not talking about a "margin of safety" for remote/single vehicle travel, I'm talking about inexperienced drivers in inadequate cars choosing to drive advanced tracks, usually in poor weather, because they have a cheap winch and think that makes them indestructible.

This is less of an issue for suzukis, mostly because they are generally quite capable. It's more of a big car problem - In all honesty it's not much dearer to buy a GQ now than it is a Sierra, but one's going to need a winch a lot more on a slippery hill.

Anyway, just my 2C.

Steve.

[tassie jeeper]

Gwagensteve wrote:

I'm not talking about a "margin of safety" for remote/single vehicle travel, I'm talking about inexperienced drivers in inadequate cars choosing to drive advanced tracks, usually in poor weather, because they have a cheap winch and think that makes them indestructible.
just my 2C.

Steve.

couldn't agree more!!