[Dan85]

What they said^^^^^ we see it alot at work where guys have to drive in remote areas and have no idea about vehicle recovery. Works puts us all through 4x4 courses regularly which helps a little bit but alot of other companies dont. Saw a guy trying to use a sand anchor on his which to try winch himself out of some mildly soft sand before he had even gotten his shovel or maxx trax dirty. I dont have a winch on the jimny yet but will be getting one as my partner and myself tend to go out exploring and travelling alone as we dont like the whole club atmosphere on 4x4 trips so a bit of security in knowning we have a bit of extra gear to help us out will be nice. having said that i dont drive anything extreme and im far more comfortable with my shovel and trax than i am with a winch.

to the OP's post. at work lifting gear is one of our biggest risks and is what has caused us some grief over recent history. the controls and mitigation procedures we have in place for this are HUGE!!!!!!! winching is much like lifting but horizontal and generally from what i see out and about with no controls in place. Suspended loads and stored energy are a massive risk and our little 4x4's are more than heavy enough to be dangerous. spend your money on something quality and at the correct rating (not to big not to small) or spend your money on something else.a set of max type tracks and a good shovel will cost you 200-300, is safer, more fun and will save you a bit of money over a supercheap winch.

[oneinkedgeek]

Thanks for all the replys guys... good reading and ill start looking for something at least 6000lb based on comments.

Cheers

[hackd]

Anyone used or had anything to do with the Runva winches? In particular the 8.0XS Rock Crawl, I am interested in one not only for it's small size and also it's small price tag of $549 with Dyneema Winch Rope.. Obviously not going to be the best winch on the market but for the limited use i'm thinking it will suit perfectly my situation and it also has a limited lifetime warranty which apparently they are exceptional at fulfilling..

[Xtreme]

I went to the winch shop located at Gosford on the central coast, he supplies many different types of winches but said that he pretty much recommends runva to everyone based on the service he gets from the supplier. I also rang the supplier and had a talk to them. I too was looking at the 8.0 Rock Crawl because I thought by its smaller dimensions it must be a fair bit lighter then the 9500 full size version I was also looking at which was 599 with Dyneema.
After explaining what it was going on, and how I expected to use it (if ever required) it came down to 2 points of difference.

Weight: The 9500lbs full size winch was only 6kg heavier then the 8.0 Rock Crawler and as the supplier said - 6kg on the front of a car is not going to be noticed. Although I am trying to be conscious of weight I know I can save that weight back in some other areas of my build .
Rope length. The only thing they did with the 8.0 (and there is also a 9.5 Rock Crawl version) is halve the drum. This leaves you with 12-14m of winch rope. So the option was $50 difference in price, 6kg Difference in weight, and 15m (approx) difference in winch length capabilities.

I was still almost going to go with the 8.0 and be happy with having some extension rope for winching which could be stored in the recovery kit, but at the end of the day I figured I would feel happiest with not having additional links/joins and connections in the winch rope and hope that for 95% of situations the full size drum, an extra 15m of available rope and 1500lbs extra pull will offset the additional 6kg which I am still happy with my choice when I look over these statistics.

Chris is the man to talk to at the winch shop in Gosford, I looked at the other gear he was brining in from the states and was knocked over by its quality. His landcruiser rock sliders were something else and come with (I am pretty sure he said lifetime) warranty against denting.

Worth speaking to him if you are still unsure or ask runva direct (Australian distributer) they were also very good to talk to.

Chris did not have one in stock but is shipping it to me for free. He did have a open working model and showed me the internal gears, how it works etc and it all looked good quality. 5 years on electrical and limited lifetime warranty on mechanical. Seems like a good winch to me. Pick will be up as soon as I receive it - should be this week sometime.

[Bazuka]

What about using a pulley block and lighter winch? I would rather use a hand winch like a tirfor than bolt a full sized winch to the front of my zook. I am pretty sure I am going to put a side x side winch on mine when it is built. Something like this... http://www.warn.com/atv/winches/ProVantage_4500-s.shtml

Yes it is slow, half that with a pulley block, but it is rated to pull over 4500lb (over 2 ton) and it only weighs 7.1kg, perfect for a light weight Suzuki I thought. Seems a shame to bolt 25kg at least of winch further out over the front axle than anything ells. Plus since I will be mainly wheeling with other suzuki's, or with just the wife and I, exploring and camping, staying out of the mud and picking the easy lines as much as we can it seems like the best option for us by a long shot.

[kenn]

Gwagensteve wrote:

ozhummer wrote:

For Gwagensteve to say cheap winches are ruining 4wding is ridiculous - what it is doing is providing 4wders the ability to add another piece of recovery/safety equipment to their arsenal at an affordable price...

Standing around waiting on tracks for randoms in underprepared cars to drag their junk up hills behind junk winches is what's changed. Tyres are still expensive. Lockers are still expensive. Winches are now a 1/4 of what they were. That's changed where in the forest we see a certain level of car.

I'm not talking about a "margin of safety" for remote/single vehicle travel, I'm talking about inexperienced drivers in inadequate cars choosing to drive advanced tracks, usually in poor weather, because they have a cheap winch and think that makes them indestructible.

This is less of an issue for suzukis, mostly because they are generally quite capable. It's more of a big car problem - In all honesty it's not much dearer to buy a GQ now than it is a Sierra, but one's going to need a winch a lot more on a slippery hill.

Anyway, just my 2C.

Steve.

Steve, I couldn't agree more. That's it in a nut shell.
The old saying ' poor people pay twice'

[kenn]

Bazuka wrote:

What about using a pulley block and lighter winch? I would rather use a hand winch like a tirfor than bolt a full sized winch to the front of my zook. I am pretty sure I am going to put a side x side winch on mine when it is built. Something like this... http://www.warn.com/atv/winches/ProVantage_4500-s.shtml

Yes it is slow, half that with a pulley block, but it is rated to pull over 4500lb (over 2 ton) and it only weighs 7.1kg, perfect for a light weight Suzuki I thought. Seems a shame to bolt 25kg at least of winch further out over the front axle than anything ells. Plus since I will be mainly wheeling with other suzuki's, or with just the wife and I, exploring and camping, staying out of the mud and picking the easy lines as much as we can it seems like the best option for us by a long shot.

That's all good, but remember your car can be the equivalent of weighing four times as much when it's stuck in mud. Also in my expearence sometimes the easy line hides the biggest obsticals, you look and think the big mud hole that everyone's been going through is a bit hard so you pick the less used doesn't look as big feels solid with a stick line and it swollows your car to the door handles. You going to want a bigger winch or a snatch block or two! And when they all fail, a long handle spade and start digging.

[atari4x4]

queue warn skipping rope vid

[Bazuka]

kenn wrote:

That's all good, but remember your car can be the equivalent of weighing four times as much when it's stuck in mud. Also in my expearence sometimes the easy line hides the biggest obsticals, you look and think the big mud hole that everyone's been going through is a bit hard so you pick the less used doesn't look as big feels solid with a stick line and it swollows your car to the door handles. You going to want a bigger winch or a snatch block or two! And when they all fail, a long handle spade and start digging.

Matthew wrote:

there are plenty of winch topics, the general rule of thumb is minimum 1.5 X GVM

How is 1.5 X GVM suitable if when you get stuck in a mud hole the truck weighs 4x as much? The winch I linked to was close to 2 X GVM of the last 2 suzuki's I have owned... Plus pulley block would make it usable to 4 x GVM would it not?.. I know nothing about winches by the way but I do know the reason most of our suzuki's are any good is power to weight ratio. I would be happy to bolt 6-8-10,000lb winch on the front if they only weighed 10kg but for a winch and a bar to hold the thing is likely to be well over 50kg.

Just did a quick search... A GQ weighs around 2.2ton... X4 is 8.8ton or 19400lbs... How many of them have 20,000lbs winches bolted to the front of them? A suzuki is going to sink a lot less into a mud hole than one of them.

I also don't think it matters what winch you have, a good spade should always be on hand.

[Xtreme]

What does everyone consider too much weight for a winch and bar on the front? I looked at cheaper lighter winches with less rope length but stil the difference over all in weight would only be 15 kg or so then running the full size one with more power. As long as the bar design was the same for each. Is 15kg really going to make that much difference on the front of a jimny or other car?

[got_bar_work]

I recon 15kg would be heaps noticeable hanging out the front of the jimmny
A 31 weights about 35 kg and there is a massive difference having it laying flat it the back of a Sierra. compared to hannging off the back door

[kenn]

Bazuka wrote:

kenn wrote:

That's all good, but remember your car can be the equivalent of weighing four times as much when it's stuck in mud. Also in my expearence sometimes the easy line hides the biggest obsticals, you look and think the big mud hole that everyone's been going through is a bit hard so you pick the less used doesn't look as big feels solid with a stick line and it swollows your car to the door handles. You going to want a bigger winch or a snatch block or two! And when they all fail, a long handle spade and start digging.

Matthew wrote:

there are plenty of winch topics, the general rule of thumb is minimum 1.5 X GVM

How is 1.5 X GVM suitable if when you get stuck in a mud hole the truck weighs 4x as much? The winch I linked to was close to 2 X GVM of the last 2 suzuki's I have owned... Plus pulley block would make it usable to 4 x GVM would it not?.. I know nothing about winches by the way but I do know the reason most of our suzuki's are any good is power to weight ratio. I would be happy to bolt 6-8-10,000lb winch on the front if they only weighed 10kg but for a winch and a bar to hold the thing is likely to be well over 50kg.

Just did a quick search... A GQ weighs around 2.2ton... X4 is 8.8ton or 19400lbs... How many of them have 20,000lbs winches bolted to the front of them? A suzuki is going to sink a lot less into a mud hole than one of them.

I also don't think it matters what winch you have, a good spade should always be on hand.

I didn't mean to sound like I was flaming you, just offering some advice. I should elaberate on this, the car CAN weigh 4x as much depending on how stuck it gets. As for patrols with 12000 pound winches with a snatch block and a limited amount of drive that winch is enough, if it were a dead pull ( no drive at the wheels ), bogged to the door handles and single line, that winch would struggle.
I run a 9500 pound winch on my LJ and carry a snatch block, the weight of the winch and bar is only slightly more than the same bar with a 6000 pound warn.

[Bazuka]

I did not feel flamed at all don't worry... I am no expert at 4x4ing and have never had a winch on any of my suzuki's. I use my zuk to get to places rather than use it as a mud plugging toy. I would like to put a winch on my next one though and use it for self recovery on the odd occasion when I do get stuck.

My questions in the above messages are genuine. I don't know enough about winches or winching, but would like to know more. It just seemed like some people were saying one thing, others saying another but they actually contradict or cancel each other out. My comments about the GQ was just to demonstrate that lots of other 4x4 carry a lot less winch:GVM than putting a 6000lbs winch on a Sierra. 6000lb winch to GVM ratio of a Sierra is about 2.7, 12000lb winch to GVM of a GQ is about 2.5... 4500lb winch to GVM of a Sierra is just over 2, that seemed like plenty to me but if I am wrong I would love to know about it. I know the original question was regarding a GV but it is probably worth doing a few calculations and working out how it is going to get used and zuk weight before settling on how big it needs to be is it not?

Adding a lot of weight like a 30kg winch in my mind clashes with the concept of making the zuk more capable that's all. 7.1kg of winch just sounds so appealing to me.

[droverdave]

Well the best way is to think of some scenarios when you might need to use one, and come up with some science behind how much you think it will take to pull it out.

[Gwagensteve]

I don't think the advice has been really that contradictory. There are lots of big cars that don't run enough winch, so I wouldn't be basing my guide on what's adequate from what some guy with a GQ runs.

I think you also need to consider the construction of the winch. 4.5k winches are generally considered ATV/UTV winches where the vehicle weight is generally well under 1000kg. The winches are smaller framed and lighter constructed. They are also slow- they're designed for dead weight pull, not assist winching. Sure they might be able to pull 4.5k, at maybe 2.4m per minute of cable, on the first wrap of the drum, but doing that a lot is going to really hard on the winch, and it's light weight chassis, if you do it often. I'd also be reluctant to drop the weight of a Sierra against the brake of a 4.5k winch if it was in a spooky position. Winch brakes that fail are scary.

There may well be little weight difference between a 6k winch and a 9k winch (and there shouldn't be- the only real difference should be gearing) but that's not the whole story, and in my opinion, it's where the whole cheap winch thing is getting out of hand.

There's no black magic to a winch- they all have roughly the same motor power to play with- the variable is just gearing. A 6k winch is faster than a 9k winch which is faster than a 12k winch. Why is a 6k winch better for a light car than a 9k winch? Because most recoveries are quite light and don't require anything like full winch power. Under those circumstances, speed adds convenience- you're in the mud for less time, or you can drive to assist the winch on a long greasy hill, for instance. These cheap and very slow winches are just tortuous to use real world, where you might have a 10 or 20m winch under light load.

There's a reason that the 8k high mount continues to be the winch of choice for frequent winching, and that's because it is very reliable and very, very fast under light load.

Steve.

[dank]

I've played with gearing from 216:1 down to around the 25:1 range. Sierras like mine need about 115:1 minimum to skull drag a diffed out car with a 6HP motor on a single line pull. I've tried getting away with less gearing 80ish :1 but it doesn't really cut it. if you are considering going less than 6000lb on a zook i think you are wasting your time if you ever do any serious 4wding, and even if you don't do any serious 4wding and only want something small as a backup, 9 times out of ten when you really need the winch it probably won't have enough go in it.

It's like trying to cut cheese with a blunt knife, you know it'll do it, but the harder you push it the more likely you are to slip up and cut yourself

I sell Runva too by the way. So you want a quote PM with location for price. They are a good winch with good warranty backup for the money.

[Gwagensteve]

Runva look pretty good from what I've seen.

Steve.

[got_bar_work]

Wats there big motor like with the fast gearing
would it have the pull for dead weight if it needed to

[Xtreme]

Although not strictly on topic - what is the suggested thickness for a winch mounting plate?

[tanshi]

i used 6mm

[dank]

Xtreme wrote:

Although not strictly on topic - what is the suggested thickness for a winch mounting plate?

Depends how you build it. I've got a winch mounting plate which is 4mm and folded front to house the fairlead. Its mounted on the horiztonal plane, but if you were to mount in on the vertical plane using 4mm with a 90 degree fold, it would probably be wise to weld in some 45 degree braces either side of the winch.

Mud Muncher and I converted his non winch ARB jimny bar to house a winch. It's 3mm plate and we plated it on the inside with another sheet of 3mm from upright to upright welding non continuous beads around the edge and a number of plug welds either side of the winch mounting holes spaced out evenly. He's done some hard winches and the bar seems to have held up ok.

[dank]

got_bar_work wrote:

Wats there big motor like with the fast gearing
would it have the pull for dead weight if it needed to

From What i've seen it's not bad. I'm skeptical of the rated output, its no load line speed is pretty fast for a low mount. Doesn't compare still to a highmount, but on a light vehicle it'll be pretty good. Only issue is the length of the motor, it won't fit in any ARB style bar as the motor is way too long. Needs to be surface mounted like on a jeep TJ style bar.

We are doing a winch for Tanshi, it's a shortened drum version of the 9500Q competition winch. It's basically a rock crawl winch with the 9500Q gearbox and big motor. Having some problems though as the input shafts are different so Runva are having to custom make an input gear or armature shaft to match the drum housing. Don't ask if we can do another one! It's been a nightmare! Hoping it will be finished in the next month or so. Tanshi is one very patient dude!

[tanshi]

once i get the thing i'll be asking my machinist to clone it. so i have a spare.

[got_bar_work]

I'm going to be making a new bar soon so i can make it to suit wat ever winch i end up getting
How well would it pull a fully loaded. vit
How's the free spool on it work

[dank]

http://www.runvawinch.com.au info here

[got_bar_work]

Would u recommend 80:1 or 110:1 for a vit
I'm thinking 80:1 would be better for assisted pulls then just block or to if u realy get stuck

[Zook_Fan]

80:1 on a vit will need a block a lot more than you'd want to use. As dank mentioned running 80:1 in a sierra is borderline with a 12v winch. It will do for light assists but every time you need to pull out the snatch block you are back to a 160:1 ratio which is standard lowmount territory. Might as well go for the 110:1 and enjoy less setup with the ability of longer pulls.

[shep]

I am going to give the 80:1 winch a try, however will be upping the cable to 75mm2 which runva recomend anyway.

[tanshi]

yeah that plus dank sells a 24/12 volt control box so you can pull on 24volt and wind out on 12.

[Zook_Fan]

At what amp rating is the control box good for?

A sierra can be pulled easily by a 44:1 winch running 24V. Mine has never had an issue pulling the car even with the motor not running. Borderline dangerous respooling the winch by hand though.