[pete_79]

We're on the last leg of a 4,000km trip in our VVT Jimny towing a 500kg trailer the whole way and there is a very noticeable difference between 95 and 98.
Not only the extra 40-60km per tank but how quickly it drops revs/power on hill climbs.
Most regional servos only have 95 and the odd tank of 98 that we got in the bigger towns was worth the extra couple of bucks per tank.
We went through 2 towns that only had 91, we needed fuel and I just topped up enough to get to the next decent town.

[Hairy]

Gday,
As a previous poster pointed out, higher octane may only be compensating for poor tunning, and I really have no reliable power comparison as wind, run up and tyre pressure may play a part in it, but in one particular rise on a road I regularly travel on the way to the beach I was dropping to 60kmh while running 91 octane, and seemed to push 80kmh using 95.........Ive put 15lts of 98 in it now and will be interested to see how it goes in the sand dunes today.....

Anyway its been an interesting and informative post....Cheers

[Mike57]

Interesting thread. I have always run 98 RON in my VVT Jimny because I "got the feeling" that it had a little better performance. Suzuki recommend 95 RON but in my travels I have often had to fill it with 91 RON and it runs fine but fuel economy is slightly reduced.

Last year before my great central road trip I asked about the non aromatic Opal fuel. I got in contact with the technical people at BP. The fellow I spoke to told me that although opal was marketed as 91 RON he would expect that almost every batch is more like 94 or 95 RON because all the additives are removed which has the effect of increasing the Octane rating. He also said that 91 RON will always be higher than 91 RON because that is the minimum it must meet when sampled from some servo tank after it might have been sitting there for a while.

I have used 91 RON, Opal Fuel, 95 RON and 98 RON and honestly I can't say that I have ever really noticed any significant difference.

I never use E10 in the Jimny or any other car.

I used of have a BA XR6 and that was the only car that I regularly used premium fuel in. It ran noticeably better on 98 RON fuel (smoother and more power). When I got the VE Commodore I tried both and could not tell the difference then always ran it on 91 RON.

[pete_79]

pete_79 wrote:

We're on the last leg of a 4,000km trip in our VVT Jimny towing a 500kg trailer the whole way and there is a very noticeable difference between 95 and 98.
Not only the extra 40-60km per tank but how quickly it drops revs/power on hill climbs.
Most regional servos only have 95 and the odd tank of 98 that we got in the bigger towns was worth the extra couple of bucks per tank.
We went through 2 towns that only had 91, we needed fuel and I just topped up enough to get to the next decent town.

I've just done my fuel usage calcs from our trip and overall the difference was not as dramatic as I expected.

The tank that I referenced for my original comment looks to be a one off.
This was a full tank from the dodgy looking self serve place near the highway at Orbost, it was labelled as 95 but I'm guessing it was either 91 or very old fuel or both.

Either way that facts are;
The tank of 98 that got me through all the hills from Narooma in NSW down to VIC used 11.44l/100km
The tank of 95 from Orbost to Moe used 13.68l/100km
The tank of 98 from Moe to Melbourne used 10.85l/100km

That's a huge difference and considering the road from Orbost to Moe is very flat compared to roads used on the tank before makes me say this tank of fuel was dodgy.


The difference in economy between 95 and 98 for the rest of the trip is much less dramatic, more like 1.5-1.9l/100km variation.

But I still say the difference in power was noticeable.

[murcod]

I was using 91 octane in my XL-7 until I heard detonation on a hot day through a cutting. I've used 98 octane (BP Ultimate) since then and have never heard it again.

[GeckoXL7]

Costco 98 octain fuel 1.17c a litre goes pretty damn good in the xl-7 getting around 12L/100k on it was getting around 15L/100k on 91 running the aircon flat out. Have had BP98 in the xl before and there was no difference and drank it pretty fast too.

United 98 blend also is new and improved meant to give more power but they do say only if have a knock sensor to make use of the extra octain. But still burns cleaner, keeps engine cleaner etc etc. Formulated in europe.

With Ethonal i have proved over the last 7 years all the myths about it killing motors is a load of crap. Been running e85 after converting when SAFF brought it out. And E10 when i can. Car just simply runs better on it. Idles smooth has more power on hill climbs, and runs better on hot days. The main issues with Ethonal is it does absorb water but thats no issue on alloy motors and not a issue if drive daily. IT keeps the motor clean so the main storys of engine destruction is people who dont maintain there motor properly as it loosens carbon etc which can clog fuel injectors. Its recomended to replace the fuel filter 250K after first using it if havent ever put it in the car. But E10 shouldnt hurt. Also the fuel hoses used on suzukis that say they support e10 is fine. I have replaced my hose with hose from super cheap and it didnt last a day, its cheap rubber and doesnt alow any use of ethonal in fuel so have got some good hose from repco that is biofuel compatible and its been fine. The main myths of corrosion comes from the use of Methonal which is highly corrosive to motors.

[Gwagensteve]

Gecko, me thinks you believe too much marketing and not quite enough in science.

Ethanol is extremely corrosive to aluminium, which is why flex fuel vehicles have stainless steel fuel systems. Ethanol strips the oxide layer off of the aluminium so it's constantly under corrosive attack. No car with aluminium fuel rails or fittings should run E85.

I keep hearing "keeps the motor clean" in relation to different fuels but have no idea what that means. The vast majority of debris inside a motor is due to incomplete combustion or the effect of oil vapour being burnt. I don't even know how much of a problem these byproducts are. Why, exactly, is a "clean" engine better than a "dirty" one? Does a "clean" engine last longer than a "dirty" engine? considering 80% of engine wear occurs at start up, which has nothing to do with "dirt"

How does the carbon from the combustion chamber get inside the injectors (if that's how it plugs them), which are typically some distance up the intake manifold? The carbon I have seen in the intake manifold of cars is associated with condensed oil vapour. Were you talking about direct injection engines?
Pressure at the injector is quite high (VERY high in direct injection cars) how does the carbon fuse to the injector hard enough to prevent it from operating when it's constantly in operation, and cooled by the fuel passing though it, when the engine is running?
How would I maintain my engine properly to prevent carbon getting inside or on the injectors when I swap to ethanol?
What clogs the fuel filter in 250km when I swap to E85?

I imagine the "cheap" hose from Supercheap is fine (probably for E10 too) but if you're running e85, just like you can't have any aluminium in your fuel system, you can't have conventional CPE rubber hoses either - you need SAE 30R9 hose as a minimum - it's not the price of the hose that was the problem, you chose the wrong product. I'm sure that super cheap hose is fine for gasoline. Was it even EFI hose?

There is no methanol in pump fuel so that's not relevant in relation to corrosivity.

[VitNick]

Would be interested in knowing how much of this is a placebo type effect of "more expensive and "better" so goes better". Should fill a car up and not tell the owner and run a few tanks, of both 91 and 98 and each time not telling the owner. And get them to record and track how the car feels. Could be an interesting project if I had time, or someone did

[Gwagensteve]

Exactly.

When I've had knock sensed petrol vehicles I've used 98 octane because it was cheaper due to improved fuel economy.
When I have had dumb petrol motors it doesn't matter what I put in them, using anything other than the lowest octane fuel they are timed for is a waste - the extra power is just disappearing into the exhaust. I certainly couldn't detect a performance increase, nor would I expect to - Crank increases of <10% in power are generally undetectable by the driver.

I have tried timing my car up for 95/98... what a nightmare. When you're sailing that close to the wind small changes in temperature or fuel quality bring on the pinging. Sure, picked up plenty of torque when it wasn't pinging though.

To put how much power increase E85 (or E100) offers into perspective, here's the figures for a Koenigsegg Agera R

Power, 95 octane: 960hp
Power E85/E100: 1140hp
So that's 16% more power, in a car that is highly turbocharged (where the timing advantages of higher octane fuel can really be exploited) It's also a car that recognises what fuel is in it. I'll also add that to generate 1140hp on E100, the car has the fuel economy of a petrol car producing 2000hp. (These are Koenigsegg's figures, not a guess)

Golly. I wonder how many people in Australia would use E85 if it was the same price as 98? Apparently the scandinavians were mad for E85 for a while there but now it's falling out of favour.

[atari4x4]

i daily/wheel the same car & i reckon i'd be able to tell the difference within a couple of minutes & a couple of kms.

Gwagensteve wrote:

Gecko, me thinks you believe too much marketing and not quite enough in science.

if i've been playing the bugle, violet crumbles get me every time with their purple shiny packaging... the marketing team nailed that one.

[Chop]

Gwagensteve wrote:

Apparently the scandinavians were mad for E85 for a while there but now it's falling out of favour.

Hang on, where is our volvo e85 loving friend from????

[GeckoXL7]

Hose isn't cheap get it at bursons too. Swealed with e10 too. It's fuel injection hose but craps.

I've done a stack of research on it. It's bad for magnesium alloy motors. I have had a good look atthe fuel rail injector ports. Orings etc etc when had the motor apart they all look good.

Cleaning is mainly the gunk that builds up in the tank using standard fuel. Gets loosened and clogs the fuel filter.

I do notice on my motor the timing is more advanced when running e85 and 98. But yeah cars that don't have knock sensors it's useless unless increase the timing a tad.

[atari4x4]

answer steve's questions FFS

[russgt]

From what i have seen running E85 on Turbo cars is great because it burns cooler and therefore can run higher timing. Thats where the power increases are from. Most guys actually run less boost and keep same power for longevity sake.

When i was racing my wrx in the state sprint series my mates car with E85 had a standard fuel system but larger fuel injectors/pump and ran e85. He made way more power than me. Both cars where identical apart from his running e85. He has no problems with corrosion in his car. Has been running fine for over 2 years on only e85.

[Moph]

VitNick wrote:

Would be interested in knowing how much of this is a placebo type effect of "more expensive and "better" so goes better". Should fill a car up and not tell the owner and run a few tanks, of both 91 and 98 and each time not telling the owner. And get them to record and track how the car feels. Could be an interesting project if I had time, or someone did

I run 13 degrees advance on my G13BA and it will ping (severely) under load if I run 91 RON. It's fine on BP 98, which is pretty much the only fuel I put in it.

As for whether that comes with any performance advantage, if I run the standard 8* BTDC then it runs great on 91 RON ... but I can't hold 110kph in 5th on the flat. If I run 13* BTDC with 98 RON then it holds 110kph on the flat quite happily.

Re ethanol fuel ... I put one tank of E10 through my Sierra years back and it caused no end of troubles. Within 20km of the petrol station it started dying at idle and driving lumpily. None of the normal carby cleaning tricks worked and I ended up rebuilding it.

[ozzycouch]

Interesting read guys.
Just to throw it into the mix, I thought the whole point of an oxygen sensor on an injected car was to allow for better fuel economy using the different fuels.
Higher octane burning longer - unburnt fuel going down the exhaust - oxygen sensor seeing this, reduces the amount of fuel entering the motor under that load/ throttle opening = less fuel for the same power = fuel savings.
I'm sure by reading the above I'm missing something, but not sure what?

[Jezza86]

monley wrote:

In my turbo taxi I noticed a big difference in power and ecomny between BP 95, 98 and gull 100. I get around 440kms to a tank on 95, 470 on 98 and 500 on 100. Imo it's worth the extra dollars for better fuel...

Shame 100 octane fuel isn't readily available in Aus

go to the airport, find a pilot, tell him you need x volume of UL100.

no road tax makes it cheaper. and illigial. it will run very well in the taxi.

[Gwagensteve]

ozzycouch wrote:

Interesting read guys.
Just to throw it into the mix, I thought the whole point of an oxygen sensor on an injected car was to allow for better fuel economy using the different fuels.
Higher octane burning longer - unburnt fuel going down the exhaust - oxygen sensor seeing this, reduces the amount of fuel entering the motor under that load/ throttle opening = less fuel for the same power = fuel savings.
I'm sure by reading the above I'm missing something, but not sure what?

Yep sort of. The other factor is that the engine management can advance timing to take advantage of the slower burn. The exact outcome will be a balance of the two.

Ethanol screws with this though. Oxygen sensors can't detect what blend is in the car, and stoichiometric for E100 Ethanol is stupid rich (like 7:1 or something) It's why E10 is OK without other modifications, but to run E85, along with a stainless fuel system etc the injection system needs increased flow capacity, different materials, and a means of detecting fuel blend.

Steve.

[henno]

Jezza86 wrote:

go to the airport, find a pilot, tell him you need x volume of UL100.

no road tax makes it cheaper. and illigial. it will run very well in the taxi.

True story: when Archerfield Airport stopped allowing me to simply roll in and fill up the drag car, I used to drive far and wide to fill up a 44 drum with avgas from friendly pilots "back in the day". I can remember paying $1.06/L at one point (2003-ish?) and decided I was getting ripped off and detuned the thing for Shell Optimax instead.

Holy crap, I just turned 34 and just realised how much I already sound like some old fart reminiscing about the good ol' times.

[atari4x4]

henno wrote:

Jezza86 wrote:

go to the airport, find a pilot, tell him you need x volume of UL100.

no road tax makes it cheaper. and illigial. it will run very well in the taxi.

True story: when Archerfield Airport stopped allowing me to simply roll in and fill up the drag car, I used to drive far and wide to fill up a 44 drum with avgas from friendly pilots "back in the day". I can remember paying $1.06/L at one point (2003-ish?) and decided I was getting ripped off and detuned the thing for Shell Optimax instead.

Holy crap, I just turned 34 and just realised how much I already sound like some old fart reminiscing about the good ol' times.

we had servo's that had AV gas on pump back in the day.

[Chop]

atari4x4 wrote:

henno wrote:

Jezza86 wrote:

go to the airport, find a pilot, tell him you need x volume of UL100.

no road tax makes it cheaper. and illigial. it will run very well in the taxi.

True story: when Archerfield Airport stopped allowing me to simply roll in and fill up the drag car, I used to drive far and wide to fill up a 44 drum with avgas from friendly pilots "back in the day". I can remember paying $1.06/L at one point (2003-ish?) and decided I was getting ripped off and detuned the thing for Shell Optimax instead.

Holy crap, I just turned 34 and just realised how much I already sound like some old fart reminiscing about the good ol' times.

we had servo's that had AV gas on pump back in the day.

How cool was that! Now that makes me feel old Henno

[atari4x4]

Chop wrote:

atari4x4 wrote:

henno wrote:

Jezza86 wrote:

go to the airport, find a pilot, tell him you need x volume of UL100.

no road tax makes it cheaper. and illigial. it will run very well in the taxi.

True story: when Archerfield Airport stopped allowing me to simply roll in and fill up the drag car, I used to drive far and wide to fill up a 44 drum with avgas from friendly pilots "back in the day". I can remember paying $1.06/L at one point (2003-ish?) and decided I was getting ripped off and detuned the thing for Shell Optimax instead.

Holy crap, I just turned 34 and just realised how much I already sound like some old fart reminiscing about the good ol' times.

we had servo's that had AV gas on pump back in the day.

How cool was that! Now that makes me feel old Henno

you're older than me.

i'm older than henno.

ethanol fuel, majikcalikly cleans your motor.

OG speed shop still have the funny car bodies ontop of the servo/workshop.

[GeckoXL7]

Ok, lol, Bellow is on E85 only and my experiance. (not recomending the stuff, but found it not to be bad depending on motor of course, i see no issues with E10 or any harm running it)

Ethonol is a good solvant - Cleans what ever builds up in the tank that can clog the fuel filter quite quickly if havent used it before. Also can clean anything in the fuel lines and injectors, there are little filters in each injector that can get blocked up, when removing mine they where pretty clean and still had the gold colour.

Ethonol is corosive to Aluminium magmesium or zink, reacts with copper etc. I read on high temps it brings oxcides out of the aluminium which creats a barrier to prevent / reduce further corosion, this was by a Chemist who worked with stainless steel and aloy. It seems ethonal and aluminum corosion stuff is only mentioned in the car industry, but look at wine making etc and beer they use it all the time, spirit makers question it because of the car industry, also read that the first combustion engines ran on alchohol then oil was found means $$$ and ethonal was banned then found petrol was killing motors and not lasting as long (Predeitination, knocking, corosion etc) so started reintroducing ethonal back into the fuel and or corosion inhibitors and ways of increasing the octain level. There is also corosion inhibitors in E85 for phase seperation and that it does absorb water etc.

Ethonal doesnt mess with the 02 sensors work just fine, yeah not as good as standard fuel because of the ideal Stoic but still work. This doesnt allow the fuel to burn efficently, but the main issue is how far the ECU can trim the fuel my xl-7 seems to go as far as 22% extra fuel with out conversion. issue is it needs up to around 40% on cold starts which the ecu can not do. I started of with a WhiteLightning conversion which adds a extra pulse to the fuel injector and longer pulse for cold starts. Now its simply higher fuel injection pressure from 36psi to 45psi and it works perfectly fine having the higher pressure is better on fuel econonomy too over the conversion kit. The only reason why they add the 15% fuel is because of cold starts, cars that run e100 usually have heated injectors, you suposidly regain fuel economy when running pure ethonol over a mix, havent seen any proof on this though.

Im yet to look at the fuel tank, not sure what there made out of.? standard fuel lines under the car havent been changed since the car was made there still going fine with out any cracking. Fuel filters never rust. Fuel injector lines/ rails have no signs of corosion, spark plugs stay clean so does the 02 Sensors which i looked at when recently putting on the extractors. All fuel injectors eg tips where suprisingly clean, have the original fuel pump, and latest reading it affects standard oil eg thins it out etc but i havent found this to be the case. I have been running it since SAFF brought it out in SA many years ago about 80% of the time done around 130,000ks on the stuff.

I mainly converted because of the price at the time eg 90c and it was cleaner and was seeing how it went then ended up keeping it, did a few months of research on the stuff because of all the unresearched negativity before using it. These days its only 7c lower than 91 because they now use 98 for the mix and then the fuel exchise, so the only real bennifit is the higher octain and the peformance + cleaner. I even rejetted my quad to run it, goes great on the stuff with no starting issues. The Phase seperation is a isssue on carbys though fuel only lasts around a week in the tank (being vented), but then again standard fuel doesnt last much longer before you cant start the bikes. I can keep e85 in a fuel container for months, put it in the bike and it will start straight away.

Its not something i would recomend, but from my experiance i havent had any issues that everyone talks about. The 98Premium im currently running started out good but now works out im getting 15L/100k. On E85 i get 14L/100 k on 91 12L/100k The car goes well on the 98 but wouldnt think the econonomy will be worse than e85. Ill fill up on it again and see what the next tank is like.

[SierraDan]

I run 95, because it's petrol and works everytime. 98 if I feel like using the red nozzle.

[atari4x4]

GeckoXL7 wrote:

The 98Premium im currently running started out good but now works out im getting 15L/100k. On E85 i get 14L/100 k on 91 12L/100k The car goes well on the 98 but wouldnt think the econonomy will be worse than e85. Ill fill up on it again and see what the next tank is like.]

you get better economy on 91?

[christover1]

SierraDan wrote:

I run 95, because it's petrol and works everytime. 98 if I feel like using the red nozzle.

I often use my red nozzle.
Maybe that explains my need for 98

[GeckoXL7]

This is the costco 98, good performance but car has only done 190K and its used half a tank.

Ill fill up on the new improved united 98 and see if its better, ill just wait till this tank is empty which seems wont take long at this rate. At the price if get good economy ill use 98

[atari4x4]

whats new & improved on the united 98? is that the same race blend that outbackjack uses?

oh the lol's in this thread... viewtopic.php?f=5&t=43474&hilit=liberty+norlunga

atari4x4 wrote:

i clearly remember your post, on your FB home page, as DH Hart before you deleted that account bitching about the shitty fuel at Norlunga liberty causing your GV/XL-7 in your FB profile pic to run rough, am i ringing any bells? that post of yours sounds identical to what you wrote below...

dhglory wrote:

think it differs from station, I've put in the 100 octane from liberty (ethanol) and it ran crap!! no guts, surging and running on 3-4 cil. (out of 6) in the morning on start up only getting better after 5 minutes or so.. had a good talk to the owner of the petrol station about his fuel being rubbish!. filled up again to see how his fuel went ( free of charge) as he swears by his high octane fuel and it went like rocket that weekend..... maybe just a bad batch...

dhglory wrote:

None in VIC. but I care enough to bring you the good news, liberty old Noarlunga has the magic mushroom blend.

dhglory wrote:

Btw, been on the phone with the state manager of liberty, seems like he is the only one selling it so I assume it's a blend he gets from elsewhere.

are you suggesting i go to the liberty that sells shit fuel & then go back & complain & get another free tank of shit fuel?

[GeckoXL7]

THe new 98 replaced the 100ron fuel. its not a e blend 100% petrol.
The raceing blend is the e85 which is now mixed with the 98ron instead of the 95. Has made a improvement mainly with starting but overall alot more smoother and better economy, use to get 18L/100 k on the old stuff. Not sure what else they put in it, but i know when SAFF first brough e blends out it had bitron in it to lube the valves, fuel system and add overall protection. Bitron is a good barrier between water and metal.

With that 100ron fuel from liberty i think its 98ron with 10%ethonal. By the sounds of it had alot more ethonal in it or not mixed properly as if not converted, car runs like crap for first 5min till the engine is warm then runs fine. Or the XL just needed to get use to it or something.

[Gwagensteve]

Here's the problem Gecko, you present as all researched and stuff, but present no sources and then post rubbish, so it gets very hard to sort the wheat from the chaff.

A) I'm not sure how many old fuel tanks you've opened. I'm yet to see "gunk" in one. I see dust and dirt, sometimes a little corrosion oxidisation from water in the fuel, sometimes marbles of fuel tank putty from poor repairs, but no "gunk"

B) Watch Roadkillon youtube to see what happens when a car is parked up with a zinc/alloy carburettor and fuel system with ethanol in the fuel. The effect is hideous. Not E85, just whatever pump gas is in CA. (like 15% ethanol) You'll her some opinions from Fieiburger on the longevity of fuel since ethanol has been introduced. This is complete common sense - ethanol is hydroscopic.

C) My source for the corrosive effects on aluminium is via the technical trainers at Bosch. However, you can do your own research - see if you can find a car sold as flex fuel capable with aluminium fuel rails. They weren't very complimentary towards ethanol as a fuel.

D) And then you post nonsense you clearly have no idea about. I'm not sure how much time you've spent in wineries or distilleries, but you won't find any aluminium. None. At all. Ever. Anywhere. Not a fitting, not a pipe, not a tank, not a valve. I can tell you if wineries could make their vats and fermenters out of aluminium they would - it's cheaper than stainless, but they can't.

E) I'm sorry I worded my response in a confusing way. I'll be clearer. The oxygen sensor in your XL-7 (and any non-flexfuel engine) is calibrated for hydrocarbon fuel. The ECU can only interpret what the O2 sensor tells it. Therefore on E85 the calibration is incorrect because the engine has no other means to determine what fuel is in it. You can play with workarounds, but that's the fact of the matter. Some aftermarket ECU's can be tuned for Ethanol fuel by entering different target lambda figures. Factory flex fuel cars have an ethanol sensor in the fuel system that then adjusts the target lambda on cruise (and make pulse width and timing adjustments to suit). Without this, you are wasting your time running higher than the maximum recommended ethanol content.

Steve.