[ozhummer]

Just wanted to see if anyone has fitted a Turbo on a G16A ? - I've just bought a Vitara with a Carby G16A, this is being replaced with a EFI once I have finished the rebuild but for a bit of fun I thought I would rebuild the carby too with a low pressure turbo. Much easier to do on a carby than EFI in my opinion and given I will only run about 8psi with water injection to cool things and protect the pistons a bit it's not going to be under too much stress .....

Might be a good project to post progress on?

Any ideas suggestions or comments??

[MacDaddy]

ozhummer wrote:

Just wanted to see if anyone has fitted a Turbo on a G16A ? - I've just bought a Vitara with a Carby G16A, this is being replaced with a EFI once I have finished the rebuild but for a bit of fun I thought I would rebuild the carby too with a low pressure turbo. Much easier to do on a carby than EFI in my opinion and given I will only run about 8psi with water injection to cool things and protect the pistons a bit it's not going to be under too much stress .....

Might be a good project to post progress on?

Any ideas suggestions or comments??

I say Go for it, do it !

I have the exact same engine in my Vit, it may be the lowest HP 1.6, but mine goes very well !
I would say, put on extractors and a 2inch system if you havnt already, as it will strangle the Turbo on a standard exhaust system... good idea on the water injection ! Will you be making it up yourself, or buying a water injection kit ?, as i wouldnt mind doing the same to mine... had water injection in my Holden 202 engine back in the 90's, kept the engine Very clean, and ran cooler, so if you know where i can get them, let me know !

[ozhummer]

I will be running custom extractors and exhaust - will go for a small garrett gt17 (maybe even a gt20) as this will give good low rpm torque. They are not big HP turbo's and are best fitted to small capacity engines.

Other things that I will look at will be lower the compression and maybe forged pistons (if I can get them and if they are cheap).

It's a fun project that will more than likely end up with a bang and smoke, but as long as I keep the boost low it may actually work !!!!!!!!!

[Rusho]

Welcome to auszookers buddy...everything you need to know about strapping a snail to a 1.6 should be found in here

[losfer]

Get ready for a world of pain and a lot of expense , for what in the end will be an unreliable piece of shit.

You will need a custom turbo manifold , and dump pipe (not extractors ) you will need a bigger fuel pump , like a holley blue , you will need a malpassi turbo fuel pressure reg designed for carby apllications , you will need to box the carb so the pressure is the same inside and outside the carby. then a standard vitara carb is vacuum secondary , you will probably want something like a weber or a holley with a mechanical secondary , even then you will have to get it rejetted and even then it may or may not stumble under transition from primary to secondary and on and off boost , a carburettor cannot "see boost" to add more fuel , so the other option is doing a suckthrough and not a blowthrough setup , but then you will need an su carb , then get the needle changed , which will mean expensive dyno time to get afr's right.
also water injection is not easy to set it up right , then you run the risk of running out of water , a simple intercooler setup is much more reliable and effective.
then you have issues with the ignition timing under vacuum and boost.

i tell you i could go on and on about the issues related with turboing a carby car but if you are mad keen on doing it , go ahead and prove me wrong, unless you have unlimited funds its just not worth it , efi on the other hand is a different kettle of fish

[ozhummer]

Yes I agree with everything you say - I use to race a Group E alfa GTV-6 Twin Turbo - about 600hp with garrett T3's running through Delorto carbs. It was a project and eventually went like a balistic missile!... Did cost a bit though ......

Will use the motor purley for experiment.. It's no prob fabing stuff, and I've plenty of experience with water injecting ...

It's all fun ....

[Brett]

make sure you keep it under 7 psi, they break pistions over that. let us know what power you make. i'd just run a inter cooler insted of water injection. have you played with water injection before? the ones i have see have been used to help stop detanation ( i can't spell for shit) more than cool the inlet temp

[losfer]

ozhummer wrote:

Yes I agree with everything you say - I use to race a Group E alfa GTV-6 Twin Turbo - about 600hp with garrett T3's running through Delorto carbs. It was a project and eventually went like a balistic missile!... Did cost a bit though ......

Will use the motor purley for experiment.. It's no prob fabing stuff, and I've plenty of experience with water injecting ...

It's all fun ....

eww alfa gtv , i just finished working on one of them and they are horrible !!! did a rear main seal and the quibos and ciggarette seals in it , not a car i would enjoy working on , on a daily basis.

[buzbox]

what happens when a water injector leaks?

[eldo]

buzbox wrote:

what happens when a water injector leaks?

that is why you have the water tank and pump below the injector, then it cant leak

[losfer]

Brett wrote:

make sure you keep it under 7 psi, they break pistions over that. let us know what power you make. i'd just run a inter cooler insted of water injection. have you played with water injection before? the ones i have see have been used to help stop detanation ( i can't spell for shit) more than cool the inlet temp

cooling inlet temps and stopping detonation goes hand in hand , things that cause detonation are , high compression ratios , timing too far advanced , low octane fuel , oil entering combustion chamber , and high inlet temps !!! theres 1/2 a dozen other things that cause detonation which arent worth mentioning , but inlet temps are high on the list of things that cause detonation!

probably the most effective way of cooling inlet temps and with the least amount of fuss , but yes once again expensive , is a water to air intercooler , short inlet tracts , reuses the water , so its an endless supply . very effective way of cooling inlet temps.

[MacDaddy]

I just googled water injection, Wow water injection has come a long way since i had it... mine was just a small brass tube put into the base of the carby, then a plastic tube connecting it to another brass tube, that went into a 2 litre plastic bottle, and it was all done by vacuum... cost me about $20 back then... now the cheapest is $300

I may have to go to an Aircraft Model shop, and get some of that small brass tubing, and make up my own...

I say go with water injection over an intercooler, you get added benefits from the water injection, and refilling the bottle/tank is no biggie

[royce]

water injection will never ever ever be better than an intercooler!!!!

contemplate this, the water you are injecting can neither combust nor support combustion, so you are lowering your available power right there

[Brett]

water injection that my mate played with was for a high comp engine for when he couldn't get av gas all the time. just fill up with 98 and flick on the water injection.

the other one i seen was on a turbo car to help stop detanation and was fixed buy going to a bigger (surface area but thinner core) intercooler. the water injection wasn't needed after that so was chucked.

i mean no offence but from what i have seen they are a band aid fix and hide other problems.

[MrRocky]

a 50/50 mix of water and methanol is generally accepted to cool the charge substantially than just water.

[losfer]

MrRocky wrote:

a 50/50 mix of water and methanol is generally accepted to cool the charge substantially than just water.

this and royces comment...

technology has come along way , water injection was used where there was no alternative , or no possible other way of cooling inlet temps on very high compression ratio engines. these days a mix of water and methonol would be used in a water to air intercooler setup.

internal combustion engines rely on 4 basic principles , air , fuel , spark and compression , i dont see any mention of water . water injection is just a cheap fix to a poorly designed engine .

i have to agree with royce that you cant beat a well designed intercooler setup. go to the drags and see how many of the cars run a intercooler , as opposed to those that use water injection

[MacDaddy]

royce wrote:

water injection will never ever ever be better than an intercooler!!!!

contemplate this, the water you are injecting can neither combust nor support combustion, so you are lowering your available power right there

Actually Water Injection and Intercoolers both have their good and their bad points...

Intercooling
Advantages
* Reliable
* System can be very simple
* Always improves power
* System break-down usually immediately recognisable
* No ongoing maintenance

Disadvantages
* Weight
* Bulk
* Major underbonnet changes
* Usually poses a flow restriction


Actually, you are mistaken about the water lowering combustion and power, there are alot of misconceptions about water Injection...

An Ethanol/Metho water mix, actually slows combustion, so you get a longer fuel burn, and a longer bang, the increase in power is a debated issue, but you definitely dont get a reduction in power !

http://autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=107970

" Water injection is used to suppress detonation. Detonation occurs when the flame front does not burn progressively across the combustion chamber but instead explodes into action. This causes a massive and sharp increase in combustion pressures which can damage pistons, rings and even heads. Detonation can sometimes be heard as a 'tink, tink' sound coming from the engine. Water injection works in three ways. Firstly, when the water is injected into the intake system prior to the cylinder head, the small droplets absorb heat from the intake air. Water has a very high specific heat rating (it can absorb lots of energy while only slowly increasing in temperature) and so the intake air is initially cooled. Next, the small drops of water start to evaporate. Water has a very high latent heat of evaporation (its change of state absorbs a lot of heat) and so the intake air charge is cooled still further. Finally, when the remaining water droplets and water vapour reach the combustion chamber, steam is produced. This acts as an anti-detonant and also keeps the interior of the engine very clean, so preventing the build-up of carbon "hot spots"
" The question of whether a water injection system can increase engine power is a contentious one. While the intake air will be lower in temperature (and so denser) when a water injection system is operating, the presence of an increased amount of water vapour in the air means that there is less room for oxygen. It is for this reason that dry air (that is, air with a low relative humidity) can allow an engine to develop more power. So when the air is cooler but its water vapour content is higher, will more power be developed? If no changes are made to air/fuel mixtures, theoretically the two factors almost exactly cancel each other out.
This means that if water injection is used without any changes made to the tuning of the engine, improvements in power are possible but not probable. However, if the engine air/fuel ratio is leaned out, or boost is increased, or the ignition timing is advanced, more power is very likely. Supercharged aircraft engines using water injection had mechanisms that leaned out the air/fuel ratio simultaneously with the operation of the water injection. "
" It also keeps the engine internally clean and can result in more power, better fuel economy and lower emissions. "

http://www.alcohol-injection.com/?gclid ... pAodjm40Yw

" The main function for injecting methanol and/or water is to suppress detonation caused by high temperatures and pressure developed in the combustion chambers. Water has a high latent heat content, which makes it extremely effective for controlling the onset of detonation, and the production of oxides of nitrogen in modern lean burn engines. Methanol, with its 116 octane and high flash point, further reduces the chances of detonation. While water is not combustible, it has a greater capacity to cool the intake air temps more than methanol alone. This effectively increases the octane rating of the fuel allowing performance gains when used in conjunction with a supercharger or turbocharger "

I wouldnt knock water injection until you have tried it...

[MacDaddy]

Brett wrote:

water injection that my mate played with was for a high comp engine for when he couldn't get av gas all the time. just fill up with 98 and flick on the water injection.

the other one i seen was on a turbo car to help stop detanation and was fixed buy going to a bigger (surface area but thinner core) intercooler. the water injection wasn't needed after that so was chucked.

i mean no offence but from what i have seen they are a band aid fix and hide other problems.

" But almost any enthusiast you’ll ever meet is dead-set against water injection, considering it to be an inferior band-aid solution for major tuning errors. But that’s simply bunkum; some of the best engineers of the last century are not wrong! "

http://autospeed.com.au/cms/title_AutoS ... ticle.html

[royce]

you know Julian Edgar is a School teacher and pretty well giggled at by the entire aftermarket automotive industry dont you?

If water injection was the answer then I am sure many many manufacturers would be setting up big tanks in turbo cars rather than fitting expensive intercoolers and bonnet scoops, but they dont cause its not the answer

Sure it helps for its original purpose, to supress detonation when other factors causing this cant be changed, IE using better fuel or retuning to suit but on a turbo engine where the inlet temps can be hitting 100 degrees there is no way it is going to drop these temps back to something desirable like around 40-50 degrees, remembering that every 4 degrees you drop the intake temp you get 1% more free power!!

also water injection isnt removing any heat, its just absorbing it from the air, whereas an intercooler is taking the heat away so there is more room for denser more oxygen rich air

[Damo]

ozhummer wrote:

Will use the motor purley for experiment.. It's no prob fabing stuff, and I've plenty of experience with water injecting ...

Ahhh someone silly enough to share the same philosophy as me

I have to admit i'm a little biased as i'm a bit interested in water injection. Most people poo-poo it, and there certainly are different ways to go about achieving the same thing. For me the biggest consideration when looking at intercooling vs. water injection is simplicity. An intercooler is just that, water injection is a reservoir, a pump, extra electricals, hoses, nozzles as well as the mucking around finding out how much water your engine actually needs, as well as some way of controlling water delivery when the engine actually needs it. If you're trying to keep things simple water injection is not for you! Having said that, how effective is an air/air intercooler going to be if you've beein crawling up a creek bed trying to drive up rock faces for an hour or so? Different things work for different applications, and I don't know of anyone on this forum that drag races their zook

A couple of points to consider:

* The carb'd G16 is not a high compression engine, so a low boost turbo setup shouldn't really require changing pistons. If you decide to ramp things up later there are a few different crown profiles of Suzuki pistons, and depending on what you are starting with you might be able find something off the shelf that drops your compression a little. As for reliability of cast Vitara pistons, Honda guys in the US have been running big numbers using Vit pistons in turbo'd D series Hondas, so there shouldn't be any need to go to the hassle and expense of custom forged pistons unless you were getting really serious.

* Back to intercooling. If you are only running your engine with moderate inlet pressure, are you really going to need water injection? You may even get away with having no intercooler at all, so i'm sure that a small air/air device would suffice.

* Connecting rods will become a bit of a concern at anything above 15PSI. That is on a 16v version so you might get some more from an 8v considering the lower compression ratio, but it wont be much more. Consider 15PSI the ceiling if you want any sort of reliability from the rods.

What is this engine going into BTW?

[MacDaddy]

Intercoolers only do one thing, they may do it well, but its still only one thing !

Water Injection, on the other hand, does many good things for the engine, it not only lowers combustion chamber temps, it removes carbon deposits which cause hot spots, hence cleaner engine, you get better fuel economy, and it lowers emissions, plus if you tune the engine to it, you get a power increase, even on non-turbo engines !

Personally, i think the water injection kits today have got far to complicated... but with modern engines, i guess they need that... maybe...

I still say, Dont knock it till you have tried it... i had water injection in my Holden PV work van with a 202 engine with the standard Stromberg Carby, and Gas Conversion... even though the water injection was a very simple vacuum model, it performed fantastic, and for me, did everything it claimed to do !