[Highway-Star]

I'll state my intentions straight up, so if anyone has any better ideas, let them fly

Basically I am unhappy with the crawl ratio I am able to achieve in my LJ80. Its "adequate", but not good enough...
My initial thought were fit a rare 5speed 1L box if I can find one, then fit 4.8 diffs, and hope its enough, but it seems lots of work for so little potential gain.

After a bit of a brainstorming session on the weekend, The idea of fitting an automatic transmission is becoming appealing. I hate driving autos on the road, but this car only gets used for 4wding most of time, so it will be OK.

Anyway, the car runs an F10a (1L Sierra motor). Would a Japanse Model F6a auto fit up to the engine? Does anyone have thoughts on the suitability of this auto for this application? I don't mind if I have to fully manualise it, I don't care about the auto shifting, I just want to be able to go slower

On the flipside, a Vitara 4speed auto would be too big for the little F10 right? and the adapter plate would be pretty epic if its even plausible


Edit: More appropriate thread title

[lump_a_charcoal]

Howabout fitting a 1.3 transfer case and putting crawler gears in?

Would probably be cheaper...

[Highway-Star]

lump_a_charcoal wrote:

Howabout fitting a 1.3 transfer case and putting crawler gears in?

Would probably be cheaper...

Have considered this. I beleive its too big, and will hang below the chassis rails (as I would have to rotate it to get the centred outputs), even with tunnel mods.

Also, some entry level competitions (which I use this vehicle for) require the original type transfer case. Yet to see a competition with restrictions on engine and transmission choice. This same reason also makes a secondary reduction case or "dual cases" a no go option...

[2stroker]

What about 4.8 LJ50 diff ratio and a 1.7 LJ50 transfer. 5 speeds are not as hard to do as you may think, how much do you want one.

[303zuke]

Either of the Sierra transfer cases (with light switch or without) are too big to fit in the LJ transmission tunnel and you would have to cut out the crossmember the case sits on. Centreing the driveshafts wouldn't be as much of an issue, as you'd just fit NT Sierra axles with your LJ80 (or 50) diff centres.

Your options are limited (under your Comp rules) to the transfer and/or diff ratios. There were 2 sets of factory ratios for the LJ case. The LJ80 has a high range of 1.562 and a Low of 2.571. The LJ50 softtop has Hi of 1.714 and Lo of 3.013. Fitting an LJ50 transfer will lower your hi range by 10% and Low range by 17%, increasing the spread between ratios.

When the Rocklobster/Rockhopper came out in the 80's by creating a hybrid ratio gearset from the 2 factory gearsets for the Sierra, the LJ gurus rapidly looked at the LJ case to see if the same could be done with it. Unfortunately, as the secondary reduction gears for low range are so similar in the 2 sets (32/22 Vs 32/21), there was very little reduction to be acheived by welding a hybrid counter gear.

For Diff ratios you have a couple of options from your stock LJ80 ratios of 4.556. As you've noted, the LJ50 has 4.875 diffs, but there is also Super Carry Van gears of 5.125. These will lower your gearing by 7% and 12% respectively. Too low? See my next post

[Highway-Star]

Its already running a LJ50 Transfer, with the 4.5 stockman diffs. I have some 4.8 LJ50 diffs here, but I am not prepared to fit them without an overdrive, as it will put a nail in the coffin of highway driving (I don't trailer it, it gets driven to the required locations). It rolls on 31" tyres.

Whats the first gear on the 5 speed 1L boxes if anyone knows for sure?
because the LJ 4 speed is 3.8, and if I go backward on this; fitting one, then going 4.8 diffs will be allot of work for no real gain...

The other option might be a divorced overdrive unit? I don't know where I would get one from though I would have to check this does not count as "dual transfers" though


303zuke, yeah a few of us have looked into "rocklobstering" LJ cases already , but so much work, for essentially no gain
Those 5.12 super carry diffs don't seem too easy to find anyway, know people with LJ50's who'd like some, but cannot find any getting wrecked.

I have gone as far as looking at custom made gears for the guts of an LJ transfer (ie same as aftermarket Sierra gear). But trying to achieve extra low range, without lowering high range seems near impossible (for any significant gain). To achieve this you need a smaller pinion for the low range pair, and there is a finite limit this can be reduced to standard, before it starts getting smaller than the shaft. Then there is the issue that the large gear of the pair cannot be made larger, as it will then not fit through the large bearing hole in the case (unless the output shaft can be completely assembled and disassembled in the case )


I am in no rush, something I would like to look at improving at the end of the year, but planning ahead is good

[tanshi]

the stockman in question already has a 50 case in it. If it didnt need to be driven to comps it would have 50 diff gears in it. In a similar vane if i could actually find super carry diff gears i would have them in my 50. I would love to get hold of a set of the super zuki gears from the 80s so i could have them coppied. it would solve alot of problems, but this isnt helping with the auto question really

[lump_a_charcoal]

Try some of the Taswegians on the board, I know a while back they had a penchant for cutting up Carry vans...

[303zuke]

The 5 speed can be done a couple of ways, but it depends on the gear shift lever if you want to modify your transmission tunnel.

The simplest mechanical way, but ugliest cosmetically, is to make a hybrid box from the type 3 1.0lt Sierra (also Maruti) 4 speed and the 1.3lt 5 speed. This box is longer and the gear lever comes out of the top rear of the box unlike the LJ remote shift. To make the box, it is a simple matter of lifting the whole gear set from the 5 speed case into the 4 speed housing to get the correct bellhousing for the F10A. You will have to cut a hole for the gear lever to come up through the trans tunnel, and I think that's ugly (and to me, the major drawback with something like a Corolla conversion ). The mainshaft is longer than in the LJ box, so you will have shorten the jackshaft to the trans case and change the g/box yoke end as the 5 speed has bigger splines than the LJ.

To keep your original gear lever in the original place, you will need to make a hybrid box using the type 3 1.0lt Sierra 4 speed and the SK410 Super Carry 5 speed. Although the Super Carry also runs a F10A engine, the bellhousing pattern is wrong because it tilts the engine over for underfloor clearance in the van and the bellhousing pattern is rotated. So you need all the 5 speed gears from inside the Carry box, the upper and lower front cases from the Sierra (or Maruti) and the rear case from the Carry with all the Carry gear selector shafts. It is a bit of a mix and match process (and your looking for 2 "Hen's Teeth" gearboxes), but it allows you to use the original shift housing from the LJ80 gear box and keeps the interior of the car looking all original.

With either of the 5 speed conversions, the the bodies of the boxes are larger than the LJ80 box, so the gearbox "cradle" that mounts the rear of the box to the chassis will need to be fabricated. Yes, your 1st gear (3.652) will now be 5% higher than the LJ80 1st gear (3.835), but you will have a 20% overdrive 5th to make up for you lower Transfer and Diff ratios. And the whole conversion is Suzuki Genuine Parts. I like that part best.

[303zuke]

Highway-Star wrote:

Whats the first gear on the 5 speed 1L boxes if anyone knows for sure?
because the LJ 4 speed is 3.8, and if I go backward on this; fitting one, then going 4.8 diffs will be allot of work for no real gain...

LJ80 ratios:
1st: 3.835
2nd: 2.359
3rd: 1.543
4th: 1.00
Rev: 4.026

Super Carry 5 speed:
1st: 3.652
2nd: 1.947
3rd: 1.423
4th:1.00
5th: 0.795
Rev: 3.466

I had 5.125 diffs, LJ50 T/case and Super Carry gears as above in this LJ80 on 30x9.5s, and it was all good. Great off road and a dream on the highway. Lo 1st was 56:1 compared to 44:1 stock.

[Highway-Star]

Oh nice!
That hybrid box sounds much much nicer.
Even with the 3.6:1 1st, if I then fitted a the 5.12:1 diffs, I would go 56:1 crawl, an upgrade from my 52:1 crawl (and better than just whacking in 4.8's with the current 4 speed (55:1). Not a huge amount, though it also lowers my 100km/h revs from 5200rpm (at the moment) to 4700rpm, which should be quite sweet for the F10.

The maruti box shouldn't be too hard to find, but the super carry again...damn! I guess super carry's are now an endangered species
Why does the front casing have to come from a type 3 or maruti? do the early F10 boxes not fit up to the carry rear housing, or the 5 speed gears not fit inside?
Another random thought stemming from that would a 5 speed from a 1.3L carry also be usable as a donor? of course still with the 1.0L Sierra front half?

Shame the 5.6:1 ratio diffs cannot be had in LJ50/80/SJ410 size, they would be awesome with a 5 speed box


Thank you 303zuke

[2stroker]

The type three is a much larger box than the earlier box, it will accet the 5 speed internals.

Be carefull when buying an LJ50 transfer, 303 zuke says it but did not spell it out for everyone - LJ50V has the same ratio as an LJ80 only the LJ50 soft top has the 1.714 and Lo of 3.013

[Highway-Star]

2stroker wrote:

The type three is a much larger box than the earlier box, it will accet the 5 speed internals.

Be carefull when buying an LJ50 transfer, 303 zuke says it but did not spell it out for everyone - LJ50V has the same ratio as an LJ80 only the LJ50 soft top has the 1.714 and Lo of 3.013

ah OK cool. You have a PM 2stroker
If the casing is bigger, I'm guessing the LJ gearbox cradle system will need modification, if not replacement? Either way I don't care, I like the sound of this solution, and am starting to put feelers out for parts

Yeah, some LJ50 hardtops seem to have one, and some the higher ratio cases... . My stockman already had the 50 case fitted, so I was set

[Gwagensteve]

F6A and F10A have (slightly) different bellhousing bolt patterns.

Steve.

[303zuke]

303zuke wrote:

With either of the 5 speed conversions, the the bodies of the boxes are larger than the LJ80 box, so the gearbox "cradle" that mounts the rear of the box to the chassis will need to be fabricated.

[quote=Highway Star]If the casing is bigger, I'm guessing the LJ gearbox cradle system will need modification, if not replacement?[/quote]

I know there is a lot there to read, but I did mention this!

The LJ80 gearbox is essentially the same as that used in the Type 1 and 2 1.0lt Sierras (and also used in the ST80 and ST90 "Carry" Van), with just a longer output shaft and the gear lever on the top of the box. The Type 3 Sierra (and SK410 "Super Carry" and MG410 Maruti) introduced the larger box that can use the 5 speed gears, although in the Type 3 and Maruti only 4 are installed and 1st gear is not quite as low as in the 5 speed gearset.

[Highway-Star]

303zuke wrote:

303zuke wrote:

With either of the 5 speed conversions, the the bodies of the boxes are larger than the LJ80 box, so the gearbox "cradle" that mounts the rear of the box to the chassis will need to be fabricated.

[quote=Highway Star]If the casing is bigger, I'm guessing the LJ gearbox cradle system will need modification, if not replacement?

I know there is a lot there to read, but I did mention this!

The LJ80 gearbox is essentially the same as that used in the Type 1 and 2 1.0lt Sierras (and also used in the ST80 and ST90 "Carry" Van), with just a longer output shaft and the gear lever on the top of the box. The Type 3 Sierra (and SK410 "Super Carry" and MG410 Maruti) introduced the larger box that can use the 5 speed gears, although in the Type 3 and Maruti only 4 are installed and 1st gear is not quite as low as in the 5 speed gearset.[/quote]

So you did
woops!



Steve, so the difference would be like between a G13 and G16 for example, and easily adapter plated?
If the hunt for 5 speed bits turns out too hard, the auto still could be a nice option (assuming it doesn't sap the power right out of the little motor).

[303zuke]

Highway-Star wrote:

If the hunt for 5 speed bits turns out too hard, the auto still could be a nice option (assuming it doesn't sap the power right out of the little motor).

Seeing as we can't "sell" you a hybrid Super Carry box and you're still thinking Auto, the F10A should handle it alright, even though it has a fair bit less power than the F6A-T. The F10A puts out 33.5Kw@5500 and 73.5Nm@3000, while the Epi Turbo F6A pumps out a whopping 47.1Kw@6000 and 98Nm@4000.

I always wanted to put either an F5A or F6A into an LJ!

Gear ratios for the Sierra/Jimny Auto:

1st: 2.727
2nd: 1.536
3rd: 1.00
Rev: 2.222

Interestingly, while looking up this info in a Jap 660 Turbo Jimny (Coily Sierra) brochure, I saw that they have 5.125 diff gears. Do any of the engine importers in Bris bring in 660 Turbo half cuts? Could you put in an order with them specifically for diffs if you don't turn up a Super Carry or 2?

[Fatzook]

303zuke wrote:

. Do any of the engine importers in Bris bring in 660 Turbo half cuts?

These are almost impossible to come accross in japan. I have a mate at an importer. Whenever there are vit front cuts coming in he calls me first. Always!! But he has only managed to get one F6a sierra front cut in the past 2 years, and it was VERY untidy, and still went for $1500.00.

You would be better off sourcing your R&P's from aussie vits.

[Highway-Star]

303zuke wrote:

I always wanted to put either an F5A or F6A into an LJ!

Gear ratios for the Sierra/Jimny Auto:

1st: 2.727
2nd: 1.536
3rd: 1.00
Rev: 2.222

Interestingly, while looking up this info in a Jap 660 Turbo Jimny (Coily Sierra) brochure, I saw that they have 5.125 diff gears. Do any of the engine importers in Bris bring in 660 Turbo half cuts? Could you put in an order with them specifically for diffs if you don't turn up a Super Carry or 2?

I still like the idea myself, and was considering it a while ago for my LJ81, but have decided against it for that car for numerous reasons. However if one was found at the right price for my 80V, I'd be onto it
But for now, I am happy with the F10.

I contacted some people in Brisbane importers back then, and they all were like what Fatzook just said, haven't seen any. However If I really wanted one, I'm sure I could find one...


I have someone to contact today who reckons they can get me the diffs . They are in adelaide though

[tanshi]

Hey if you can find more than two sets some where, i will split the shipping with you.

[want33s]

My brother in law is a Carry freak and has shitloads of spares, he has enough bits in his shed to build three whole vans.... God knows why when he only does about 1500km per year in it......

I've asked him about diffs and he has two he's willing to sell but is unsure of their ratio.
He's going to check them and get back to me sometime today.

[tanshi]

there were different sized ones as well. so might be an idea to ge a crown wheel diameter measure ment too. im interested if they turn out to be the right ones.

[Highway-Star]

want33s wrote:

My brother in law is a Carry freak and has shitloads of spares, he has enough bits in his shed to build three whole vans.... God knows why when he only does about 1500km per year in it......

I've asked him about diffs and he has two he's willing to sell but is unsure of their ratio.
He's going to check them and get back to me sometime today.

Be really appreciated if you can get back to me on this. Early Carry vans are still 5.12 ratio, though they are LJ20 size centres (ie crazily small!). Its a case of making sure they are the right ones I guess

Yeah Tanshi, I have sent this place an email, and am waiting on word from them


Edit: the size being discussed that fits LJ50/LJ80 is approximately 160mm OD on the crown wheel, and the mating surface for the housing is ~ 200mm.

[want33s]

This chart may be of some assistance...
http://www.4x4.in.th/specification.html

[303zuke]

Another point to consider with the Super Carry diffs are the hemisphere centres and splines. The Super Carry "3rd member" (boy, I hate that term!) is the same size as the LJ50/80/1.0 Sierra, so bearings and hemispheres will all swap around. The SC diff centre isa 2 pinion style and will be fine for all but the most over-tyred/thrashed LJ, but you can swap in a 4 pinion centre if you want. The side gears are 26 spline, so the whole diff will slot right into the rear of an LJ80 Stockman or 1.0 Sierra without any other changes, as these are also 26 spline. The front of the 50/80/Stockman and Sierra are 22 spline, so you will have to either change over to a 4 pinion centre, or do it the easy way, and just replace the side gears.

Although a 1.0lt size diff, the side gears used in the SC 2 pinion centre are the same as those used in the 1.3 Sierra rear diff. The 26 spline gears are P/N 27341-83000, while the 22 spline fronts are 27341-83100. The beauty of the 2 pinion carrier is that you can change the side gears without disassembling the centre or upsetting the ring and pinion backlash. The crosspin holding the pinion gears can be removed over the ring gear, then remove the pinion gears, the remove the side gears.

All you have to do now is find someone on the forum who has put Cro-Mo axles in the front of their 1.3 and wants to swap their 22 spline gears for a pair of 26 spline gears. How hard could that be?

[want33s]

Barry got back to me about the diffs and as far as he can tell the tooth count is 41/10...=... 4.1:1... Sorry.
I'll check them myself as soon as i can get to his place but it won't be for a week or so.

[Highway-Star]

303zuke wrote:

All you have to do now is find someone on the forum who has put Cro-Mo axles in the front of their 1.3 and wants to swap their 22 spline gears for a pair of 26 spline gears. How hard could that be?

That would be me
I have the bits here

I can't see the 2 pinion being a major problem, the front one in my Sierra never gave me an ounce of trouble. And as long as the F10 is the engine, its not getting a stupid amount of horsepower through it.



Your Fine Want33's, appreciate any help at all. No stress, as I said above, its something I'd like to do at the end of the year, this is all planning ahead, and research .

[Highway-Star]

Digging up this thread..... I have some new bits . 5 speed making time.

So I have had a look at the Super Carry box, and the bit that has me totally bamboozled is the shifter. Its seems that the far right (facing front of vehicle) shift rail is 3rd/4th, the middle one is 1st/2nd, and the far left one is 5th/R. Also the shift rails shape will in no way accept the LJ linkage shift (I probably should have taken a picture). Am I supposed to use different shift rails or change something?

303zuke I have quoted this text of yours, because it says you retain the carry selector shafts. If this is the case, is there something I am not understanding properly?

303zuke wrote:

To keep your original gear lever in the original place, you will need to make a hybrid box using the type 3 1.0lt Sierra 4 speed and the SK410 Super Carry 5 speed. Although the Super Carry also runs a F10A engine, the bellhousing pattern is wrong because it tilts the engine over for underfloor clearance in the van and the bellhousing pattern is rotated. So you need all the 5 speed gears from inside the Carry box, the upper and lower front cases from the Sierra (or Maruti) and the rear case from the Carry with all the Carry gear selector shafts. It is a bit of a mix and match process (and your looking for 2 "Hen's Teeth" gearboxes), but it allows you to use the original shift housing from the LJ80 gear box and keeps the interior of the car looking all original.

[303zuke]

Highway-Star wrote:

Digging up this thread..... I have some new bits . 5 speed making time.

So I have had a look at the Super Carry box, and the bit that has me totally bamboozled is the shifter. Its seems that the far right (facing front of vehicle) shift rail is 3rd/4th, the middle one is 1st/2nd, and the far left one is 5th/R. Also the shift rails shape will in no way accept the LJ linkage shift (I probably should have taken a picture). Am I supposed to use different shift rails or change something?

303zuke I have quoted this text of yours, because it says you retain the carry selector shafts. If this is the case, is there something I am not understanding properly?

303zuke wrote:

To keep your original gear lever in the original place,.... you need all the 5 speed gears from inside the Carry box, the upper and lower front cases from the Sierra (or Maruti) and the rear case from the Carry with all the Carry gear selector shafts. It is a bit of a mix and match process

It is all to do with mixing the components around to make the Hybrid work. You've just looked into the selector opening and seen that it isn't the same as the LJ80 set-up, but you must remember that you DON"T USE the front upper and lower of the Super Carry box, the selector rails come out and you rearrange them sand mix them with the Maruti/1.3 5 speed selector forks. I'm sorry I didn't go into every specific detail cause I didn;t think you'd go out and buy all the boxes and get started on you own (and also because I'd done this conversion nearly 20 years ago and couldn't recall the lot straight off the top of my head!) But anyway, I've done some reading up on it, and I'll explain it over a couple of posts.

BTW while you've got the 3 boxes sitting together, can you get a pic of the bellhousing ends to show that while the bolt pattern is the same, the SC rotates it to drop the block on it's side, and that is why you can't just use the SC box to make the 5 speed in an LJ?

[Highway-Star]

303zuke wrote:

Highway-Star wrote:

Digging up this thread..... I have some new bits . 5 speed making time.

So I have had a look at the Super Carry box, and the bit that has me totally bamboozled is the shifter. Its seems that the far right (facing front of vehicle) shift rail is 3rd/4th, the middle one is 1st/2nd, and the far left one is 5th/R. Also the shift rails shape will in no way accept the LJ linkage shift (I probably should have taken a picture). Am I supposed to use different shift rails or change something?

303zuke I have quoted this text of yours, because it says you retain the carry selector shafts. If this is the case, is there something I am not understanding properly?

303zuke wrote:

To keep your original gear lever in the original place,.... you need all the 5 speed gears from inside the Carry box, the upper and lower front cases from the Sierra (or Maruti) and the rear case from the Carry with all the Carry gear selector shafts. It is a bit of a mix and match process

It is all to do with mixing the components around to make the Hybrid work. You've just looked into the selector opening and seen that it isn't the same as the LJ80 set-up, but you must remember that you DON"T USE the front upper and lower of the Super Carry box, the selector rails come out and you rearrange them sand mix them with the Maruti/1.3 5 speed selector forks. I'm sorry I didn't go into every specific detail cause I didn;t think you'd go out and buy all the boxes and get started on you own (and also because I'd done this conversion nearly 20 years ago and couldn't recall the lot straight off the top of my head!) But anyway, I've done some reading up on it, and I'll explain it over a couple of posts.

BTW while you've got the 3 boxes sitting together, can you get a pic of the bellhousing ends to show that while the bolt pattern is the same, the SC rotates it to drop the block on it's side, and that is why you can't just use the SC box to make the 5 speed in an LJ?

I'll get a picture tonight.
Both the gearboxes I need popped up in the last month or so, so that's why I am doing it. The parts presented themselves, and ignoring that would be crazy, as my road gearing is mega bad at the moment (as it is I have a longish highway drive to do in it in just over a week).
Any help is really appreciated!