[atari4x4]

Fatzook wrote:

Hey Macbear. A few posts back you said your car runs better on E10? now that its been re-tuned.. How was it re-tuned? (Not having a go mate, its a serious question)

Because AFAIK, the ECU in the GV and all suzukis made in the last 10-15 years are a fixed program, with a VERY small scope for self correction. Certainly not enought to account for a 10% ethanol mix.

Where did you have it retuned? Did they fit a piggyback fuel ECU?

Your 'Re-tune' may have just been a good old service and cleaned out the gunk from the motor and perhaps thats why it is running better??

peaceout

wait your turn, i asked first

atari4x4 wrote:

MacBear wrote:

when i recently had it retuned, i found it ran even better, so it all comes down to getting the right tuning setup...

how did they retune it, do you run a aftermarket ECU?

[Fatzook]

atari4x4 wrote:

Fatzook wrote:

Hey Macbear. A few posts back you said your car runs better on E10? now that its been re-tuned.. How was it re-tuned? (Not having a go mate, its a serious question)

Because AFAIK, the ECU in the GV and all suzukis made in the last 10-15 years are a fixed program, with a VERY small scope for self correction. Certainly not enought to account for a 10% ethanol mix.

Where did you have it retuned? Did they fit a piggyback fuel ECU?

Your 'Re-tune' may have just been a good old service and cleaned out the gunk from the motor and perhaps thats why it is running better??

peaceout

wait your turn, i asked first

atari4x4 wrote:

MacBear wrote:

when i recently had it retuned, i found it ran even better, so it all comes down to getting the right tuning setup...

how did they retune it, do you run a aftermarket ECU?

I asked louder

[ajsr]

you two are just bastards and are going to give poor old mcbear a complex at this rate

[atari4x4]

Fatzook wrote:

atari4x4 wrote:

Fatzook wrote:

Hey Macbear. A few posts back you said your car runs better on E10? now that its been re-tuned.. How was it re-tuned? (Not having a go mate, its a serious question)

Because AFAIK, the ECU in the GV and all suzukis made in the last 10-15 years are a fixed program, with a VERY small scope for self correction. Certainly not enought to account for a 10% ethanol mix.

Where did you have it retuned? Did they fit a piggyback fuel ECU?

Your 'Re-tune' may have just been a good old service and cleaned out the gunk from the motor and perhaps thats why it is running better??

peaceout

wait your turn, i asked first

atari4x4 wrote:

MacBear wrote:

when i recently had it retuned, i found it ran even better, so it all comes down to getting the right tuning setup...

how did they retune it, do you run a aftermarket ECU?

I asked louder

that was very considerate of you to write it in such a large font so he can read it

[MacDaddy]

Fatzook wrote:

Hey Macbear. A few posts back you said your car runs better on E10? now that its been re-tuned.. How was it re-tuned? (Not having a go mate, its a serious question)

Because AFAIK, the ECU in the GV and all suzukis made in the last 10-15 years are a fixed program, with a VERY small scope for self correction. Certainly not enought to account for a 10% ethanol mix.

Where did you have it retuned? Did they fit a piggyback fuel ECU?

Your 'Re-tune' may have just been a good old service and cleaned out the gunk from the motor and perhaps thats why it is running better??

peaceout

Ummm no... i have been miss quoted i think, i said, " When i switched to Premium, 95ron, i felt a difference, but when i recently had it retuned (with 95ron), i found it ran even better, so it all comes down to getting the right tuning setup... ", i dont know how they tune it, i am just learning about ECU's and how they work... i add my own Ethanol, in the form of Metho, to my tank every 3rd refill, helps to remove moisture, and possibly cleans the fuel system a bit, but i use other additives for that... i had my GV done at a major service recently, so yes they changed every oil, replaced parts, and cleaned and tuned, i am not full bottle on how ECU's work, i dont even know if settings can be changed, or if they are a part of the tuning process... i learnt from the old way of tuning engines, so i am still learning about ECU's, all i know is that it had a tuneup, not sure how they did that, but it sure feels alot better, as if some settings have been changed... maybe someone can explain that... thankyou for your serious question... i have seen other ECU's on ebay, but unless they do some amazing stuff, i am not gonna stuff around with the ECU...

[MacDaddy]

ajsr wrote:

im pretty sure I did explain properly if you reread the post
sorry if I hurt your feelings

Ah... ok... i didnt see it because it was in my quote...

Ok so you need more of it to produce the same energy/bang as unleaded... do you have any figures that says how much more is needed to produce the same energy as unleaded, in say a quantity of 1L ?

I thought Ethanol only affected some rubber compounds, at a certain percentage... is it metal corrosive too ?

Well if Ethanol does burn cleaner, then they are going green... to a certain extent, he he...

So for general auto usage, it runs hotter because it runs lean, why does it need to run lean ?
So in a way i was partly correct about it burning cooler, but only if you adjust air/fuel ratio's, and have a major retune... can that be done for general auto usage ?

I do think Ethanol is a great product... but unless my Zook engine is designed to run 85% Ethanol, i wont be doing that any time soon...
I think they will need to add something to Ethanol, to make it a viable product that everybody will gladly use...
I would be ok using something like an E5, regularly, but unless i got info from Suzuki directly, to say E10 is ok, i may not use an E10...

I remember when i used to do, and fly, model airplanes, with those small 0.25cc engines, they used an Ether type fuel with a plant oil mix, not sure if that was Ethenol based, and i dont know if that would work in auto engines, but maybe they could do a similar mix... just thinking out aloud...

And NO, you didnt hurt my feelings... just dont make it personal... arnt we all supposed to be mates here, with a common interest/love, just different opinions...

[MacDaddy]

SuziBlu wrote:

ASJR,
Mate, who is saying to run on pure ethanol.

we all have opinions, and seriously, have you tried running a small percentage of ethanol in your car, tuned accordingly.

It does make a diff, major diff, I have run up to 50% ethanol, and the performance was amazing, it may have issues with earlier fuel systems, ie its non conformance with "general" fuel systems, rubber, etc, but there is no denying its power enhancement.

It will use more, but then, power is expensive. Want more power, tune to ethanol standards.

Here here !

[SuziBlu]

[TZAR]

from the suzuki owner manual

[atari4x4]

my vitara owners manual has the same text regarding ethanol fuel.

[SuziBlu]

Is the recommendation because of the EMC or because of the fuel lines. All holdens since 2000 can run any blend, the fuel lines are fully upgraded to ethanol blends. I do believe there is or was E85 in some of the bigger towns, (sydney & melbourne) and they are gearing up to that.

[royce]

[SuziBlu]

So, tell me, how does one engine management system work out the difference between the northerm fuel, and the southern, the temp ranges bertween the very hot desert and the very cold snow country.

There are some very extreme differences to be considered, an that is without taking into consideration density of air mas tween low land and the alps.

Your engine that is controlled by a computer can handle these variances with ease.

So, why is it so hard to consider that it can take into account, a fuel that has a different 02 level, desert, snow, lowland, alps, sorry Royce, I do not thank you understand.

[atari4x4]

IAT sensor

[royce]

SuziBlu wrote:

So, tell me, how does one engine management system work out the difference between the northerm fuel, and the southern, the temp ranges bertween the very hot desert and the very cold snow country.

There are some very extreme differences to be considered, an that is without taking into consideration density of air mas tween low land and the alps.

Your engine that is controlled by a computer can handle these variances with ease.

So, why is it so hard to consider that it can take into account, a fuel that has a different 02 level, desert, snow, lowland, alps, sorry Royce, I do not thank you understand.

The MAF sensor telles the ecu how much oxygen is being fed into teh engine, that takes into account hot or cold, high or low altitude

it cant cope with teh fuel cause it hasnt been told how to cope with it, its told when this this and this happens do this, this action is worked out by engineers with more smarts than you or I with a lot of equipment, its not calculated on the fly

only the most complex of ecus are now only being built to chase a certain mixture output and level of ignition advance rather a set instruction, but they still arent going to know to totally change the mixture they can only go off oxygen content in the exhaust

[Gwagensteve]

Royce does understand Suziblu. "Flexfuel" EFI that can calculate based on its inputs and outputs what blend of fuel is being used is relatively new and very much more complex than typical suzuki EFI.

The "huge range" of conditions you speak of aren't really that huge - IAT and 02 sensing provide trim - not a whole new map. The temperature of the air coming into the engine makes very little difference once the air has entered the cylinder, for example. Hell, under full power, the engine doesn't even look at the O2 sensor - it just goes to it's full power map that will shoot for generally about lambda 0.9 based on throttle position and the amount of air entering the engine. That's pretty basic.

Why 0.9 and not 1.0? for safety - OEM's might run at lambda 1.2 or leaner on cruise (trimmed by the O2 sensor), but under power they will run rich to prevent detonation even with crook fuel, scorching IAT etc.

That might mean that some of that safety margin can be exploited by using ethanol, but that's a risk. It's not magic.

Steve.

[Rhino]

[atari4x4]

^^^^ so what they're saying it is shit?

[Fatzook]

atari4x4 wrote:

^^^^ so what they're saying is it's shit?

What they are saying is its better for the environment, but not your car

[ajsr]

or your wallet

[Fatzook]

ajsr wrote:

or your wallet

Or your reputaion on Auszookers

[ball]

atari4x4 wrote:

^^^^ so what they're saying it is shit?

That's what I said 2 pages ago

[atari4x4]

i knew that from the title of the thread, it's amusing seeing all the justification & blue waffling going on.

[Joe]

atari4x4 wrote:

i knew that from the title of the thread, it's amusing seeing all the justification & blue waffling going on.

Haha i told Kate's 14 year old nephew to google that today he just gave me a funny look and walked away

[atari4x4]

he'd be scared for life....

[zookfun]

ive seen 100 octane 10%ethanol at a couple of servos around the place too.

[MacDaddy]

I just looked in my GV manual, about fuel, and fuel types... the Manual is dated, May 2000... and it says my GV can run up to E10, if it has similar or higher octane rating...
And it can run 5% blends of Methanol, but any more than 5% Methanol, and bad things start to happen... see pic below -

[SuziBlu]

Ok, so I don't understand, it all seems strange to me.

The 02 sensor can tell 02 free in the exhaust, and tell the computer to richen or lean the mixture, but not if its from oxygenated fuel ??

I didn't know the MAF sensor had altitude, density and temp sensors in it.

Cool.

[JrZook]

SuziBlu wrote:

I didn't know the MAF sensor had altitude, density and temp sensors in it.

Cool.

MAF sensor dont need to. As it stands for Mass Air Flow, the amount of actual air flow is based on altitude (air density) and air temperature of the air. This sensor is a direct measurement of the amount of air entering the engine. With a MAP (manifold absolute pressure) the amount of air entering the engine is in-directly calculated using the air pressure (density) and air temperature.

To calculate how much fuel is required in the mix a measure of fuel density is used (0.739g/cc) this combined with the amount of air or density of the air entering the engine you can calculate the required injector pulse width to give you your desired air/fuel ratio.

Regardless if the fuel used is oxygenated or not, the O2 sensor will still give you a lambda reading from the end result of combustion, It can compensate slightly to achieve the desired target AFR but only at cruise and low loads

Dan

[Fatzook]

So what you are saying is, that even IF the O2 sensor could detect the extra oxygen in the exhaust as a result of usinging E10 fuel, and could trim AFR's to suit the new fuel, this would be irrelevent as soon as WOT was achieved?

I'll stick to my 98RON thanks. My shitbox spends ALOT of time at WOT