[Built4thrashing]

lump_a_charcoal wrote:

I tend to believe that offroad, an auto is best.
On road, auto is best, unless it is a performance vehicle, then it should be manual, or hybrid.

Are you saying the sierra is a performance car. wondered why it loves to sing at 6000rpm


B4T

[Gwagensteve]

I quite often cover the brake whilst descending in my manual car.

Here's a couple of reasons.

A) My first low is so low that using 1st low when descending is just too slow so I'll shift to second or even third and cover the brake rather than chug down the hill at 1km/h

B) There's very good reasons to use the brakes to control a descent. In the driving we're doing, we are often heavily articulating and hitting big compound angles whilst descending. Assuming you're open or airlocked and open, If you're not using the brakes, when a wheel lifts while descending the car will fall rapidly until it touches the ground again. Not only is this scary as hell, it's also hard on the driveline (the lifted wheel turns backwards until it loads up again) and can unbalance the car leading to a roll.

Anyway, if I tried to drive a stock standard sierra down a lot of the descents we drive, it would run away like crazy- sierras don't have enough engine braking with stock gear reduction to adequately control speed on a descent. Neither do many stock geared autos.

PS I've driven a 4:1 transfer geared Vitara with 5.12 diffs and 31's and with a stock AW-4 auto it had so much compression braking that 1st low wasn't practical to use for anything except scary-steep drops. Most of the time I was in second low and using some throttle or the boredom became too much to bear.

Of course autos don't compression brake and anyone who brakes a manual going down a hill is a dick though.

Steve.

[SuziBlu]

Gwagensteve wrote:

I quite often cover the brake whilst descending in my manual car.

Here's a couple of reasons.

A) My first low is so low that using 1st low when descending is just too slow so I'll shift to second or even third and cover the brake rather than chug down the hill at 1km/h

B) There's very good reasons to use the brakes to control a descent. In the driving we're doing, we are often heavily articulating and hitting big compound angles whilst descending. Assuming you're open or airlocked and open, If you're not using the brakes, when a wheel lifts while descending the car will fall rapidly until it touches the ground again. Not only is this scary as hell, it's also hard on the driveline (the lifted wheel turns backwards until it loads up again) and can unbalance the car leading to a roll.

Anyway, if I tried to drive a stock standard sierra down a lot of the descents we drive, it would run away like crazy- sierras don't have enough engine braking with stock gear reduction to adequately control speed on a descent. Neither do many stock geared autos.

PS I've driven a 4:1 transfer geared Vitara with 5.12 diffs and 31's and with a stock AW-4 auto it had so much compression braking that 1st low wasn't practical to use for anything except scary-steep drops. Most of the time I was in second low and using some throttle or the boredom became too much to bear.

Of course autos don't compression brake and anyone who brakes a manual going down a hill is a dick though.

Steve.

Fuk your such a wanker, seriously, I think you have a schoolboy crush on me or something, everytime I say something, you quote out of context or ridicule what I say, fukwit.

[Gwagensteve]

My apologies for quoting you out of context.

For accuracy, here is your quote in context.

[quote=suziblu]skotup wrote:

Quote:

when was the last time you were impressed by some1 crawling downhill with no brake lights on?

IMO anyone doing very steep descents with brakes is a dick.[/quote]

And I'd argue that manual or auto, covering the brakes on very steep descents is a very good idea.

Sorry if you still think that's out of context.

I did notice you tried to provide some context of your own:

Quote:

Ok, if you have over run, of course use brakes

And of course, your right, but what happens of you don't have overrun? Don't use the brakes and bounce to your death? It's pretty silly to apply fast rules and blanket bullshit statements to a pretty complex area of car control.

There's a world of techniques that might be too silly for words, completely go against the "rulebook" that was mostly written in the 1970's and early 80's with diesel, drum braked, open diffed, stiffly spring cars. some technicques might only work in a particular car or on a particular hill, but that's the benefit of experience and having an open mind about what might work.

Steve.

[inbits]

I always cover my brakes aswell auto or manual my old sierra had 6.5s and 3.9 diffs and my stock vitara auto i do the same for the exact reason steve has mentioned as soon as a wheel lifts the car takes off until it has weight on it again.
But my stock auto vitara engine brakes quite well so im happy

[SuziBlu]

Of course your right Steve no drama, maybe I should buy a car and get a drivers license so I can talk with some form of knowledge, I bow to your vastly superior knowledge.

Will look in great anticipation of anything further you say, you god you.

[Fatzook]

For rock crawling ----- Auto.

For everything else ---Manual.

JMO
Peter

[Gwagensteve]

This is a forum. It's about experience, discussion and opinion. It's not about making nonsense, contrary or ridiculous statements and then attacking people who, with good reasons (even if you don't agree with them) disagree with you, although many others seem to be able to disagree with you and you just ignore them.

It might be better to concentrate on doing that before you get a license and buy a car, although I agree, that might help.


Steve.

[Fatzook]

I think I missed something

[ajsr]

oh steve your a bad little bastard lol

your going to give dave a complex at this rate

[MacDaddy]

well... that didnt take long for the Shit flinging to begin... cant you just feel the love...

Just dont make Royce come and separate you guys, or you will get sent to your room on a longgg time out...

[SuziBlu]

Im pissed, no way am I gunna say anything to "god"

I just wish he would stay over at OL where for some reason they think he knows something, its got me fukd why.

[JrZook]

SuziBlu wrote:

Im pissed, no way am I gunna say anything to "god"

I just wish he would stay over at OL where for some reason they think he knows something, its got me fukd why.

I wonder why. You do bring up some quality statements time to time............ . Keep getting your user name mixed up with BlueSuzy (who doesnt post garbage) unfortunatly.
So whats wrong with steve's comments, they seem to be informative and make sense rather then anyone doing very steep descents with brakes is a dick.

[Polar_Bear]

I can feel the love here

Gwagensteve wrote:

B) There's very good reasons to use the brakes to control a descent. In the driving we're doing, we are often heavily articulating and hitting big compound angles whilst descending. Assuming you're open or airlocked and open, If you're not using the brakes, when a wheel lifts while descending the car will fall rapidly until it touches the ground again. Not only is this scary as hell, it's also hard on the driveline (the lifted wheel turns backwards until it loads up again) and can unbalance the car leading to a roll.



Steve.

slightly off topic but i was in the same situation at work the other day.. i was driving an offroad boom lift (cherry picker) ie, no flex at all.. on a slight incline, without the diff locks on, i lifted a drive wheel.... fawkin thing lost drive and rolled uncontrollably backwards for a few metres....missing a retaining wall by literally 10mm. scary as hell? i pretty much shat my dacks

[atari4x4]

pics or it didn't happen

[Red89]

atari4x4 wrote:

pics or it didn't happen

Of the cherry picker not your dacks please

[Polar_Bear]

Red89 wrote:

atari4x4 wrote:

pics or it didn't happen

Of the cherry picker not your dacks please

dont have any of the boom lift, ive taken it off hire and sent it back, as for the dacks...they went in the bin

[atari4x4]

SuziBlu wrote:

skotup wrote:

when was the last time you were impressed by some1 crawling downhill with no brake lights on?

IMO anyone doing very steep descents with brakes is a dick.

yeah but you only drive sand where brakes aren't needed....

[SuziBlu]

Really scary hitting the brakes in sand mate.

I was referring to road type braking, not short stuff, like trucks, thru the freeway into adelaide, they have cameras, if trucks use their brakes, they are questioned why they were doing braking, if no legitimate reason, crucified.

[atari4x4]

since when was the discussion about on road driving?

[DarkHorse]

Manual for me - just feels like cheating driving an auto for anything other than DDing, and even then I hate it.

Don't care if it makes the car more capable in certain situations - I'm more interested in the driver being capable, and that means having direct control over as much as possible of what the car is doing. I drive for the fun of driving, not necessarily for the bragging rights of getting somewhere faster than someone else can - I want to know that I got there because I could, not because the car could.

Just me.

[SuziBlu]

atari4x4 wrote:

since when was the discussion about on road driving?

Dunno, I was just commenting on my thoughts of people using brakes.

i was in Oman, done a drive with 3 of us, me, driver and interpreter, we went from a high plato down a monster very rough, steep track. The driver stopped at the top, looked down, put it in angel gear, and was going to go down a very steep, narrow track without a gear selected. I got out the car, caused a hell of a ruckus, but, brakes, no way.

[Fatzook]

SuziBlu wrote:

atari4x4 wrote:

since when was the discussion about on road driving?

Dunno, I was just commenting on my thoughts of people using brakes.

i was in Oman, done a drive with 3 of us, me, driver and interpreter, we went from a high plato down a monster very rough, steep track. The driver stopped at the top, looked down, put it in angel gear, and was going to go down a very steep, narrow track without a gear selected. I got out the car, caused a hell of a ruckus, but, brakes, no way.

Is it just me, or is this written in a foreign language???

[Gwagensteve]

I don't want to bang on about this, but I'll reiterate - An auto IS NOT easier to drive than a manual off road.

Remember with an auto that by using torque converter slip, RPM and brake pressure, wheel speed and torque at the wheels are controlled independently. That's three variables before you deal with terrain effects or available traction.

Trying to balance throttle and brake to hold revs and brake load to provide the road speed you want regardless of terrain is really quite hard. The tighter the converter, the tighter the torque band of the motor and the shorter the gearing and the harder it gets. with a loose converter, tall gearing and a diesel, it's quite easy - stand on both pedals and steer.

It's quite an act of finesse in an auto converted sierra.

It's kinda like patting your head whilst rubbing your tummy... and then hopping, while reading out loud.

It's not that that it's an easy skill, it's that the result is more effective than a well driven manual.

Like I have said, if you haven't seen it done or tried it, it's hard to appreciate the effectiveness or skill required to drive an auto well on technical terrain, but it's massively rewarding. Far more so than a manual where once the clutch is out you have no control over torque at the wheels, only wheelspeed.

It is absolutely not point and shoot. That's how I find driving a manual. Sit it on the line lock, dial up the revs, pop the clutch and hope your wheelspeed matches the traction you have. There's no way of controlling torque at the wheels so if you run out of traction you have to back off and hope they hook back up. With an auto you can build up torque at the wheels with no wheelspeed (by left foot braking) and then ease the brake off and "feel" how much traction you have. If you have less traction than you thought you drop revs or add brake and keep working the balance point. It's quite an art, but it generates traction where it's very hard to in a manual car because you have to have wheelspeed in to prevent stalling.

The effect is that a 40:1 geared auto on 35's can be more effective on very steep, technical terrain than my 120:1 geared car with the same tyre size -because of the ability control torque at the wheels.

You'd be surprised the number of people that want an auto once they've seen how effective it is. don't confuse effective with easy though.

Steve.

[Fatzook]

My V6 sierra was auto. Loved it in the rocks.

And I can confirm what G-banger said about the auto being harder to drive in some offroad conditions. Just like its harder to drive with cutting brakes, rear steer etc. But thats another conversation.

[SuziBlu]

Fatzook wrote:

SuziBlu wrote:

atari4x4 wrote:

since when was the discussion about on road driving?

Dunno, I was just commenting on my thoughts of people using brakes.

i was in Oman, done a drive with 3 of us, me, driver and interpreter, we went from a high plato down a monster very rough, steep track. The driver stopped at the top, looked down, put it in angel gear, and was going to go down a very steep, narrow track without a gear selected. I got out the car, caused a hell of a ruckus, but, brakes, no way.

Is it just me, or is this written in a foreign language???

Sorry Fats, not sure what you don't understand.

I was in Oman, on top of a flat land, very high up, then we went to go down basically a goat track. The driver selected angel gear (neutral) and was going to go down on the brakes. I jumped out of the car.

Whats not to understand ?

[atari4x4]

but what does that have to do with auto's VS manual's offroad?

[SuziBlu]

Just a comment on brakes rather than gears going downhill.

Ok, I fuked up, I rescind my comment. Brakes are wonderful going downhill.

[Gwagensteve]

I'm really not trying to pick a fight here SuziBlu, but your insistence that using brakes when descending is a no-no flies in the face of most of our experience.

You've stated before that the vast majority of your driving is in sand.

I agree, from the small amount of driving I have done in sand, it's very clear that using brakes is a terrible idea (at all, least of all downhill)

For those of us that do lots of track driving though, the old school method always used to be 1st low and feet on the floor for very steep descents. That's how I was taught in the early 1990's during driver training.

The thing is that nearly 20 years later, I think it's nonsense. Lots of things that were taught back then aren't true at all now- 20 psi was "low" tyre pressure, coil springs were rubbish, efi was an unnecessary complexity, autos were no good for anything, and suzukis weren't capable.

Maybe we're able to generate lots more traction than we could back then, but there's very, very few hills I can't stop on under brakes with complete safety.

Sure, some very greasy wet descents don't hold enough traction for the brakes to work, and there might be a small advantage in keeping the wheels turning over (but ironically, locking the brakes and letting the junk build up in front of the wheels works too) and sure, I've come down enough hills sliding and picking up momentum, but in my experience, all I'm trying to do is let the wheels turn enough to give me some steering control so I can point the car into a bank or rut. If I'm going to be a passenger, I really want the car to be jammed into something so it can't rotate or fall off a track.

There's no way I will stop a car quicker by not braking. I will maintain steering control by not braking, and there's a place for that. Once the car is where I want it on the track though, I'm going to brake (or even engage reverse and punch it)

However, this applies to wet, greasy drops only. The rest of time, I brake, pop in and out of gear, stop, get out and have a look - whatever - because I have enough traction to allow the car to sit on the brakes.

It's not at all uncommon for me to start a descent in 1st low, get bored, cover the brake, and shift up to 2nd or third all under the brake pedal and then potter down at lower revs using the brake.

In short, If the car will hold on the hill in gear, there's no problem using the brakes - there is enough traction to stop the car.

If the car won't hold on the hill, other than steering control, using brakes or engine braking only makes very little difference. Either method is applying more retardation than the car has traction, so the car is going to move faster than the wheels are turning. It's scary either way. I'll sometimes use a hit of throttle to steering the car into a rut, but after that it's not important.

Steve.

[SuziBlu]

Steve,

I was actually making the comment on "driving" downhill, not at all bouncing down tracks.

In sand, heading down razor backs, you are just as likely to end for end her if you hit the brakes, you can help a touch by working the hand brake, but your just as likely to skid anyways.

If your going down a 3' incline, as I see some vids of people doing, I can see no way of doing that without really good brakes, but as I see it, that is not a hill, a hill where you can overheat your brakes and have fade, then your up shit creek.

From as far back as I can remember driving, started when I was about ten, was drummed into me, use the engine as your first preference for braking, and the clutch to start only.

I just see an incline, or rocks as different to a hill, as a way out there, over the top, understanding, ride your brakes going down into Tamworth from the great divide, theyd melt.

Sometimes I wish I could be as eloquent in type as I am in words.