[DarkHorse]

From this:....................................................................................To this:
............
(paging remydog...)


The next big step is looming - springs, seats, lockers and various electrics projects aside, the next significant jump is 2.0L front brake calipers and rotors, requiring 8mm spacers behind the discs, and 16" XL7 rims.

I have everything waiting to go, except the spacers that are getting made up in the next week or so. Rims are blasted and ready for powdercoating:

They are 16x7" (180mm wide) with a measured 10P offset.

The big uncertainty I have at the moment is tyres. The 31x10.5 Treps I've had on the car most of the time I've owned it have been great, and they're almost cactus now anyway... that's the sort of thing I'm thinking of anyway, but they're not made in the sizes I'm looking for. Don't really want to go more extreme than that (Simex etc) as the car still spends quite a lot of time on the road and I do some long highway trips. I am also looking slightly more reasonable in terms of tread pattern as well, but still MTs (Bighorns, KM2s, STTs etc) Not particularly fussed about directional design or not, I'll just find a cheap matching sized non-directional spare.

Size is the first big question - the philosophy of this build has always been to push the boundaries of the car and my own knowledge and abilities, make it better bit by bit, every change or update an upgrade. I'm not really interested in building the most sensible, most functional, easily engineerable, blah blah blah. I've been running 31s for a while, so in the spirit of the build I'm looking slightly bigger. In imperial terms 32s or 33s. Complication is that I don't really want to go much wider, as 13+ inches wide is going to be more of an inconvenience than a benefit. I'd like to keep width to around 10.5 or 11" - 255, 265ish, or if I can get the diameter in a narrower width I'll consider it. Can I run 265s on a 7" rim?

The immediate flow-on from increasing size of course will be further deterioration of gearing, both hi and lo. I'm pretty much on the limit of tolerability at the moment. If I do go bigger, I'm considering the Undertaker as a solution:

1.5:1 transfer, which will bring me back to lower than standard, so I might then have to look at 4.6 diff gears, but will cross that bridge when/if I come to it. Waiting on a shipping quote.

I'm also willing to do a little chopping around arches if necessary, and I'm starting to think about slightly longer rear control arms to gain an extra 10mm or so behind the back doors.

Finally, price is a consideration. I'd like to keep a set of 5 to around $1250, especially considering the Undertaker, shipping and drive-shaft mods are going to cost well over $1500. So that probably counts out STTs, MTZs or KM2s for a start. I am very willing to consider a second-hand set in good nick as well.

So... a very basic starting shortlist:
Maxxis Bighorns - 265/75 or 265/80 Q
Federal Couragia MT - 235/85 or 265/75 Q
Bridgestone Dueller M/T - 265/75 S
KM2s - 235/85 or 265/75 Q
MTZ - 265/75 Q
Goodyear Wrangler M/T or MT/R - 235/85 or 265/75 Q
ProComp XTerrains or Muds

And a few others I know nothing about but came across:
Yokohama Geo M/T
Kumho KL71
Michelin XZL

So... advice time - I'd love any recommendations, cautions, previous experience good or bad, anything I might have missed in my considerations about sizes especially...

Any help much appreciated!

Cheers!

[SierraDan]

Maxxis Creepy Crawlers 255/85r16. (33.5x10)



When you get them, tell me where/how so i can get some

[GRPABT1]

Look up the Deestone "mud clawer" it's kinda like a the traditional BF KM1 pattern and cheap like the federals.

The only problem I can see it the wheels being 16X8's. You will be able to run less pressure without bead leaks on a 7" wide rim if you intend to stick to 10.5" wide tyres. I'm not that educated on big tyred Vitaras but what would be stopping you from running a wider tyre? Is it rubbing or just a preference?

Also, depending on your terrain you might find that an extreme tyre like the pedes or swampers will get you further in a smaller size than a less aggressive radial negating gearing issues which in my opinion more than makes up for any lack of road manners or noise.

[got_bar_work]

SierraDan wrote:

Maxxis Creepy Crawlers 255/85r16. (33.5x10)



When you get them, tell me where/how so i can get some

That's what I wou love to put on mine for hard short trips and comps

[got_bar_work]

With that offset even a 10 " wide tire at 33" is going to get real close and personal with the chassis
I have backed my steering stop out heaps with my 31 treps on 10p and it's still close
I recon at 33 u should go to a -13

[got_bar_work]

Also as it flexes up u will also be in the inner guard on the back

[DarkHorse]

GRPABT1 wrote:

Look up the Deestone "mud clawer" it's kinda like a the traditional BF KM1 pattern and cheap like the federals.

The only problem I can see it the wheels being 16X8's. You will be able to run less pressure without bead leaks on a 7" wide rim if you intend to stick to 10.5" wide tyres. I'm not that educated on big tyred Vitaras but what would be stopping you from running a wider tyre? Is it rubbing or just a preference?

Also, depending on your terrain you might find that an extreme tyre like the pedes or swampers will get you further in a smaller size than a less aggressive radial negating gearing issues which in my opinion more than makes up for any lack of road manners or noise.

Thanks, I'll look them up.

Rims are 7" wide, sorry - typo. Trying to stay reasonably narrow mainly for clearance, but also for steering resistance, protrusion and less 'floaty' tendancies in mud.

The road manners/noise vs gearing is a debate I'm still having with myself...

Thanks!

[DarkHorse]

got_bar_work wrote:

SierraDan wrote:

Maxxis Creepy Crawlers 255/85r16. (33.5x10)



When you get them, tell me where/how so i can get some

That's what I wou love to put on mine for hard short trips and comps

Would be nice, but I don't comp mine, living in suburban Sydney there's no such thing as a short trip really, and I'm only running one set of rims so I need the tyres to be legal.

[monley]

Have you had a look at procomp x-terrain's?

http://www.procomp.com.au/Default.asp?MenuId=PC_TYRE_XT
They come in 33x11.5 and 33x12.5 R16 to

[SierraDan]

monley wrote:

Have you had a look at procomp x-terrain's?

http://www.procomp.com.au/Default.asp?MenuId=PC_TYRE_XT
They come in 33x11.5 and 33x12.5 R16 to

Monley loves his pro comp x-terrains

[monley]

SierraDan wrote:

monley wrote:

Have you had a look at procomp x-terrain's?

http://www.procomp.com.au/Default.asp?MenuId=PC_TYRE_XT
They come in 33x11.5 and 33x12.5 R16 to

Monley loves his pro comp x-terrains

There a good tyre (apart from in really soft sand)

[GRPABT1]

For what it's worth I daily drove my zook on a set of 31" pedes which are the noisiest tyres I've ever heard and not the best on wet roads, specially with a locker, from new until they were worn right down. I would have traded more power/gearing for more noise even with those. I know run on stock tyres even with 6.5:1 transfer gearing and wonder why I never did before, and my current 34" swampers are actually rather quiet on the road but the poor gearing/power to push them and the fact they wear quick makes it a no brainer.

And personally I think the Pro comp X terrains are the most over priced and crappy offroad tyre around. The Pro comp mud is better IMO, a mate had a twin locked jeep on X terrains that was always struggling, now with KM2's it's much more capable

[neofitou]

Pitbulls

http://pitbulltires.com/rocker.php

[SierraDan]

neofitou wrote:

Pitbulls
http://pitbulltires.com/rocker.php

I wanted these too. But couldnt be bothered trying to get them.

[bohuler]

I can make some calls tomorrow and get you wholesale prices on the tires your after so that you have an idea on the markup that the tire mob you get them are sticking you with
Dave

[bohuler]

Goodyear Wrangler M/T
Bridgestone Dueller M/T - 265/75 S
Maxxis Bighorns - 265/75 or 265/80 Q
Kumho KL71
Michelin XZL
I'd steer clear from these, but thats just from a personal point. I will contact the yokohama key dealer re the Yokohama Geo M/T and the KM2's and then give Exclusive a ring and get you a Cooper STT and Federal Couragia MT price.
Dave

[DarkHorse]

got_bar_work wrote:

With that offset even a 10 " wide tire at 33" is going to get real close and personal with the chassis
I have backed my steering stop out heaps with my 31 treps on 10p and it's still close
I recon at 33 u should go to a -13

Yeah, I'm at the point where pretty much whatever I do will be making things cosy. Rim selection has sort of been goverened by the need to clear the calipers, so unless I go to 17s, which narrows my tyre choices even further...

Guards I can deal with a little, chassis will be an issue...

[Gwagensteve]

I reckon you're at an interesting point in the development of your car. I'd say, it's time to seriously consider two sets of tyres.

Let's assume you want to step to 33's. I can't think of a tyre that will work really well in all terrains at 33" that will also work well on road. I'm not sure if you have experience with a dedicated off road tyre, but their performance is so far beyond a road radial that once you've driven on a dedicated off road tyre you won't be able to go back. However, running a 33 on road will degrade your handling and braking enough that it's equally pointless running a tyre that size on road as a daily.

You've also made an interesting choice in rims. Those XL-7 rims are cool - they are great size and offset, but there is another disadvantage with 16's that isn't immediately apparent - tyres to suit 16" rims generally have a higher load rating than tyres for a 15" rim. THat might be fine for touring and on road, but in difficult terrain you'll be cursing the higher load rating.

What would I be doing? I'd be running those XL-7 rims on road with a 235 85 16, in a pattern that really suits your use when you aren't pushing the envelope. That might be an all terrain, it might actually be a "road" MT like a MT/R, it might be a "traded in" set of 7.50 R16 Dunlop Road Grippers from a commercial 79 series 'Cruiser.

That frees you up to get some real tyres on the car for off road use. I'd start by looking for some reasonably priced used beadlock rims (or internal headlocks if you are a masochist) It's not possible to get the most out of any tyre without beadlocks.

Then start looking around for some used off road tyres. I'd be looking at 34 9.5 15 swampers, 34 10.5 LTB swampers, 33 12.5 15 swampers (these are tall and narrow and work like crazy if they are in good nick) Simex's if you don't care about rock performance, Silverstone extreme's, whatever - theres a large range of tyres available if you don't care about road performance.

Ripping up your road tyres off road doesn't make sense. Wobbling about on off road tyres on road daily doesn't make sense either.

Steve.

[got_bar_work]

U should be able to get a 16 x7 in - offsets
If ur going a undertaker go all out and go some 34-35

[got_bar_work]

I'm with steve
Get some 235 85 for road then some 34 swampers for off road
Then come up the wattos for a drive
U won't need the under taker off road if u have tc gears
Auto would be better
The biggest problem a lwb vit has off road is ramp over
So the taller the tire u can get under there the better
Am I right in saying bias tires are better at that as well as I think they have stiff side walls but really soft tread
So when u let them down u don't loose all ur hight like u do with radials

[DarkHorse]

bohuler wrote:

Goodyear Wrangler M/T
Bridgestone Dueller M/T - 265/75 S
Maxxis Bighorns - 265/75 or 265/80 Q
Kumho KL71
Michelin XZL
I'd steer clear from these, but thats just from a personal point. I will contact the yokohama key dealer re the Yokohama Geo M/T and the KM2's and then give Exclusive a ring and get you a Cooper STT and Federal Couragia MT price.
Dave

Cheers Dave, that'd be awesome. Would love prices on anything, websites don't seem great on that and no-one answers phones on Sundays! Not sure I want to know what the retail mark-up is, but anything I can do to get around it is a positive!

Why not keen on the Bighorns?

Thanks all for your feedback, some good food for thought.

Deestones look alright, but without real world feedback or even a retail dealer to chat to I'm a bit hesitant to risk an unknown.
Pitbulls look awesome, but Rockers start at 35s, MadDogs at 38, and the Growlers stop at 31...
I'll add Pro Comps to the shortlist, although the difference between the XTerrains, Muds and Extreme Muds looks kind of marginal...?

[GRPABT1]

Not all bias tyres have super stiff sidewalls, simex are pretty stiff and some of the swampers are, some aren't. I find my TSl's aren't too stiff at zook pressures but the LTB's and TSL SX I believe have a stronger sidewall construction?

[monley]

DarkHorse wrote:

I'll add Pro Comps to the shortlist, although the difference between the XTerrains, Muds and Extreme Muds looks kind of marginal...?

Yep! I wouldn't go near the muds tho. They seem to have a really weak side wall compared to the x-terrain's My mate has a set of procomp muds on his JK wrangler and has has put a huge hole in the side wall of one of them.

I run my tyre's at 8psi when i go wheeling, but the other night i went down to 2psi - no issues at all

[Fatzook]

DarkHorse wrote:

They are 16x7" (180mm wide) with a measured 21P offset (probably 22?)

No they aren't. They're 10P.

[bohuler]

FYI, Silverstone 31/10.5R16 have not been imported into australia for the past 2 years. I have had a shit fight with the importer cause one person told me that they were in the factory then when I rang up to order them another person who knew what they were talking about said they havn't imported that size :p Having said that, you can import them yourself, but that would take you above your budget
Generally 4x4 tyre mark ups are anywhere from $60 to $100 a tyre. In that markup is the labour cost (removal and refitting), disposal of old tyre (ours cost is $5.50, but if your just disposing of the tyre the retail dispoal price is $10) and the balancing. Some nasty tires can take up to 150g or more of lead
I totally agree with Gwagensteve. When I update my GV tyres (im going to copper stt's and internal beadlocks love buying it all at wholesale ) i will be running another set of road tyres for daily use. (probably a set of falkens). I ran my sierra on a set of km2's daily and I just sold it with 101,000ks on the front set of km1's and 61,000ks on the other set of km2's, but it is a sierra and doesn't quite have the weight to wear out a set of tires
Dave

[DarkHorse]

Thanks Steve, was hoping you'd chime in here.

The car is at an interesting stage for a number of reasons - as a project and a learning experience I am keen to keep developing and improving, but I've kind of reached the point where further improvement is beyond the realms of normal road-going mods, and any upgrading has fairly major knock-on effects - the brake upgrade being only the first example (calipers require spacers and rims, rims require tyres, tyres will require clearancing, arms, blah blah blah.)

I have never used dedicated off-road tyres, in fact my MT experience is limited to the Treps, hence asking for advice here. I'd love to run two sets, but I'm limited by a few things - budget being one, but also space and my inconsistently nomadic lifestyle (I have space for a spare set at the moment, but in 6 months time everything my well be back in storage and I'll be on the road again - 4 34 tyres is a lot of space and hassle when it comes to moving...)

How realistic would it be to find a set of beadlocks and two sets of tyres (even used) for under say $1500?

Oh, and I don't have a trailer and tracks are a good hour of cop-infested highway away, so I would be loathe to have the Swampers on for the transport sections...

The load rating on 16s is not something I'd considered - you're referring to sidewall flexibility at low pressure? Again though I'm limited by needing 16s to clear the calipers (I'm not keen on shaving calipers and staggering pad changes to make 15s work) and 17s would be worse wouldn't they? Apart from even less tyre options.

G_B_W - undertaker doesn't help clearance issues with 34-35s, they'd need more than a little trim and some much more extreme offset wouldn't they? And just transfer gears wouldn't help the fact that my car is already a slug off the line and up hills on road, even a slight increase in size is going to push it over the line of my self-delusion that it still OK... so need Hi and Lo corrected.

Not going auto. End of story.

[DarkHorse]

Fatzook wrote:

DarkHorse wrote:

They are 16x7" (180mm wide) with a measured 21P offset (probably 22?)

No they aren't. They're 10P.

Flange to flange = 180mm
.:. Centre Line = 90mm
WMS to Inner rim = 111mm
.:.Offset = 21mm

What am I doing wrong? Should only measure to flange instead of rim? That'd get it back to around 10mm?

[Gwagensteve]

Quote:

How realistic would it be to find a set of beadlocks and two sets of tyres (even used) for under say $1500?

Pretty easy if you play your cards right. I bought 5 Walker Evans Beadlocks and 4 35" Krawlers for $2160 all up.

Quote:

you're referring to sidewall flexibility at low pressure?

I stayed away from the 420 brake upgrade because of the requirement to run 16" rims, although I note that Atari has shaved his callipers to run 15's without issue. 17's won't work at under a 35" tyre IMHO. A rule of thumb is that the sidewall height (combined) should not be less than the rim diameter. So 15's = 30", 16's=32" 17's=34" 20's=40"

Yes I'm referring to sidewall flexibility - a shorter stiffer sidewall requires lower pressure to provide the same conformability as a taller, softer sidewall. On a heavy car, that's not an issue, but with a suzuki, we're running soft 15's down to 4PSI (or less)to get them to work, so a stiffer tyre has no hope of matching that ability to conform.

I can't comment only your lifestyle, but offroading onroad tyres or onroading offroad tyres is throwing money away and ending up with poor performance (somewhere) either way.


Steve.

PS offset is measured from the bead seat (inside edge) not the outside edge.

[Fatzook]

DarkHorse wrote:

Fatzook wrote:

DarkHorse wrote:

They are 16x7" (180mm wide) with a measured 21P offset (probably 22?)

No they aren't. They're 10P.

Flange to flange = 180mm
.:. Centre Line = 90mm
WMS to Inner rim = 111mm
.:.Offset = 21mm

What am I doing wrong? Should only measure to flange instead of rim? That'd get it back to around 10mm?

Its a JJ rim, so both beads are the same. So to make it easier, measure from the very outside edge of the back of the rim to the WMS. Then measure from the very outside edge of the front of the rim, to the WMS. Subtract one from the other to find the difference.

[DarkHorse]

Thanks Steve and Pete,
Thought the inconsistency in measuring points was a bit weird, but everything I read talked about a straight edge on the lip, so that's what I did.

Atari has found rims that fit, shaved calipers, and can only change one brake pad at a time to keep the calipers close. Too much fuss for me.

I do take your point about compromising either on road or off, I just don't know if it's something I can go to those lengths to get around.