[31zook]

gregc wrote:

I guess other options could be:

1. BenT spacer that is 1.5mm thicker
2. Drill / Holesaw out the back of the selectable hub (not ideal though - affects sealing).

Either way - sounds like a good plan 31zook. Hurry up and get it done so mud_muncher can start breaking something else.

After talks with an LJ guy he said that Sierra rear ARB side gears fit in a jimny front airlocker, just need to machine down the spigot. So Mud_muncher might be able to run unbreakable 26spline in his.

I think I'm going to get a 22spline set made up as I would prefer to not break R&P, or carrier, and have my axle as a weakest link. This is due to me already having an airlocker in, and not wanting to pay for someone to machine down, figure out, re-install my freshly locked diff.

Dan is coming over tomorrow to see if a lowrangeoffroad Sierra chromo CV will fit in a Jimny knuckle once and for all

[Gwagensteve]

31zook, I think you might regret going down that path, for a few reasons.

A) Our experience with DT's is that the hub bolts are the weak link once the front is 26 spline throughout. We've broken nothing else to date in a front end. Jimny R&P should be stronger (when going forwards) than sierra. We've not broken a carrier either.

B) It takes 20minutes to change out hub bolts trackside, and with the exception of not being torqued with a torque wrench, the repair is as good as new, and for this reason, we're not frantically looking for a hub bolt upgrade. Breaking something further into the diff is a pain. A broken axle lodged in the locker would take over three hours to fix trackside, so your day is over. Bear in mind a DT CV doesn't come out through the spindle hole, so the knuckle has to come off to get the CV out.

C) Necking the axle down at the diff end will concentrate its twist in the area around the spline. You would have to have the axle machined down to it's 22 spline diameter for as much of its length as possible and neck up at the CV. At the end of the day, it makes the inner axle only as much stronger than stock as the material upgrade. That seems like a lot of money to spend and messing around to be stuck at 22 spline. I'm totally convinced it will fail and you'll end up at 26 spline eventually, you'll have just paid twice.

Just my 2C.

Steve.

C)

[31zook]

So hub bolt break before Jimny R&P? Can you prove it?

[gregc]

31zook wrote:

I think I'm going to get a 22spline set made up as I would prefer to not break R&P, or carrier, and have my axle as a weakest link. This is due to me already having an airlocker in, and not wanting to pay for someone to machine down, figure out, re-install my freshly locked diff.

I hear what you are saying about not wanting to pay for the air locker install a second time, but it might be worth pricing your axels before deciding to go this way.

Our full floater axels were pretty costly, and definately not the thing you want to be breaking if you can avoid it.

I would prefer to blow up the ring and pinion - not good for a trail repair, but much kinder on the wallet.

[zooky08]

Not many Jimny r&p are on the market, so what happens when you can't find another one in a hurry. Your stuck then.
If axles break at least you have stock ones to get you back up running if need be.
But this way it does work out expensive. I say go for 31zook. You can be the guinea pig

[Gwagensteve]

31zook wrote:

So hub bolt break before Jimny R&P? Can you prove it?

No I can't, but by deduction, it makes sense.

Jimny's break axles easily, but I don't know of anyone who has broken a front R&P

A Jimny front R&P is close in size to a Sierra front R&P

A Jimny front R&P is high pinion and therefore stronger than a "regular" low pinion diff of the same size when used in a front application by about 20%

We're not breaking low pinion gear sets in Sierras with DT axles.

I think it would be safe to assume hub bolts will fail before the R&P or a DT axle.

Breaking aftermarket axles on the basis you don't want to machine a side gear seems silly.
Breaking aftermarket axles on the basis you can put a stock axle back in if it breaks is also silly IMHO

Steve.

[31zook]

Would the rest off the diff seem strong due to the CV's being so weak?

Are high pinion diffs actually stronger? How is it so?

I'm just not convinced that you could break a 22 spline diff in the front, with only 31s.

As far as I know AJSR ran 34s and birfields... No breakages...

Is that due to you guys only driving slippery clay and mud?

[Gwagensteve]

Yes, high pinion diffs are actually stronger when used in the front.

Quote:

...as you pointed out another advantage of using a reverse rotation gear set in the front is that it is stronger . The front diff runs in reverse so that with a standard rotation gear set you are running on the coast side of the gears. You lose approximately 20 to 30% of the potential strength because of this. .... On a standard rotation gear set in the rear or a reverse rotation in the front, where you are running on the drive side of the gear, the gears are pulling themselves together and hence not loading the bearings as much. This is why if you do differential repair work in a 4 wheel drive business you work on front diffs about three times as often as rear diffs.

AJSR held his 22 spline diffs together because A) correct, we don't have much traction down here, and B) because of his driving style. He doesn't tend to drive into something and load it up, he tends to hit stuff pretty quick and bounce over it. He's CroMo now though. He was as surprised as us that he got away with 22 splines as long as he did.

Truth be told, I haven't seen a 22 spline axle break, the CV's always went long before the axle, and none of us (except AJSR) bothered with rings. With a DT CV though, I have no doubt the 22 spline axle will be the weak link. bear in mind also a 22 spline stock front axle is about the same length all the way along - it doesn't neck up or down. (except for the seal) A 22/25 spline hybrid will neck up towards the CV and that will restrict its ability to twist, undoing some of the advantage of the improved material selection. 25/26 spline axles don't have to change diameter either.

[Highway-Star]

31zook wrote:

So hub bolt break before Jimny R&P? Can you prove it?

I doubt this can be proven unless we buy a fleet of Jimny upgrade the axles, and set about breaking stuff The hope we get a enough of a consistent result to make a call...


I have spent hours, actually more like day and days trying to determine mathematically the theoretical "strength" of some Suzuki diff gears. Its nigh impossible, there are some slightly design theories on how hypiods should be designed, then there is different failure modes (teeth yielding, fracturing, fatigue etc etc), not to mention the unknown material used. I have even wondered about what scope there is for custom cut diff gears out of better grade steels to add diff strength, yeah it would cost a truck load, but beats doing an axle swap .

Axle shafts and bolts are somewhat easy in comparison to determine, but that doesn't really give you an answer on which would go boom first.

Oh, just to throw a spanner in the works, I have a dead Jimny front diff gear in the shed, and I have killed hub bolts on my Sierra, basically I have seen every part of a Jimny front end (or equivalent from another model) get killed at some point... Or rear end actually....

[zooky08]

So what is the deal then. What can us Jimny drivers that are front locked, get our front end stronger. I'm very interested and i will spend what ever I have too, so I have a fairly strong front end.
I no Jimny r&p are weak as. Just ask monkey
So 26 spline are going to be stronger then 22 spline axles.
Once having strong cv and axle, hub bolts the weakest point then?
I'm happy to replace hub bolts then pulling apart/ rebuilding front diffs all the time.
No I havnt broken a cv yet and I know I shouldnt be worrying about this until the day does come to breaking one, but it'll be good to have some knowledge when the situation does come.

[Gwagensteve]

zooky08 wrote:

I no Jimny r&p are weak as. Just ask monkey

I think we need more information on this failure. Did the R&P fail in reverse? Where they damaged in reverse then failed under power? Was the pinion seal leaking at the time of failure (a sign preload has relaxed screwing gear setup)

I'm not saying that Jimny R&P's are indestructible, but they should be stronger than a Sierra front R&P, and they don't fail often.

Rears, however, do seem to be made of cheese - they week to fail much more often than sierra R&P's.

Swapping to a sierra ( or vitara) R&P would be difficult as the steering gear would have to be reworked to compensate for the low pinion front diff. I know it has been done, but it certainly adds a lot of hassle to the job.

Steve.

[tanshi]

Gwagensteve wrote:

zooky08 wrote:

Rears, however, do seem to be made of cheese - they week to fail much more often than sierra R&P's.
Steve.

this gives me the impression that the material used in Jimny gears is weaker, thus wouldnt you think that the fronts would be made of the same shit.???

[zooky08]

If my head remembers right, I'm sure monkey destroyed his rear r&p When going forward.
I'm with tanshi, wouldn't you think they both be made out of the same material.

[Gwagensteve]

Oh that's quite possible - there's lots of assumptions in all of these ideas. I'd still never make a custom part weaker than a factory part though. You don't want the custom part to be the bit that fails.

Steve.

[SierraDan]

I'd want all my breakable bits to be outside the wheel bearings.
So the locking hub or bolts.

[zooky08]

SierraDan wrote:

I'd want all my breakable bits to be outside the wheel bearings.
So the locking hub or bolts.

This is what I want. Bolts are easy to replace. Axle cv or r&p aren't so cheap to replace.

[monley]

Not sure of this is true or not, but I have been told that Suzuki have had case harding issues on there gears sense early 2000. Maybe that's why jimny stuff is so weak? This is only what I have been told. I have no proof that this is true tho....

[31zook]

Okay guys, Sierra chromo's fit. With sierra FWH hubs on (BenT's kit), there is the tiniest little bit of rub on the selector. Dan pointed out that If it rubs it might select or deselect the hubs, proving quite annoying

I'm so sure that I won't break a 22 spline axle, that I'm going to just do it and if I break a 22 spline I'll buy the read gear set and get bigger axles made. If made from HyTuff, I think I'll still break the bolts first.

I'm yet to get prices, but is anyone keen, I'm going to put a total guess on it costing around $500-800 total.

[SierraDan]

Pics





Here you can see on the end of the CV the slightest rub on the selector.

[31zook]

With a 22spline end, these will also fit a stock Coily.

Thanks for pulling your car apart for me dan

[SierraDan]

Yeah no worries. It had been a while since i had a perve on the zooks shiny bits.

[mud_muncher]

31zook wrote:

Okay guys, Sierra chromo's fit. With sierra FWH hubs on (BenT's kit), there is the tiniest little bit of rub on the selector. Dan pointed out that If it rubs it might select or deselect the hubs, proving quite annoying

I'm so sure that I won't break a 22 spline axle, that I'm going to just do it and if I break a 22 spline I'll buy the read gear set and get bigger axles made. If made from HyTuff, I think I'll still break the bolts first.

I'm yet to get prices, but is anyone keen, I'm going to put a total guess on it costing around $500-800 total.

So you are planing on getting 22 spline axles, used with double tough sierra cv's? I currently use vitara hubs with no spaces (i grinded down the lip) I do have a set of drive flanges which I could try to keep the hubs permately locked in and the stub can stick out the end. I am def keen total cost should be under 1k with the double toughs, yes?

[Fatzook]

31zook wrote:

With a 22spline end, these will also fit a stock Coily.

Thanks for pulling your car apart for me dan

I thought coily and jimny were different widths?

[31zook]

As far as I know mud_muncher yes. Under a 1K.

Really pete, I thought they were the same...

[31zook]

mud_muncher wrote:

31zook wrote:

Okay guys, Sierra chromo's fit. With sierra FWH hubs on (BenT's kit), there is the tiniest little bit of rub on the selector. Dan pointed out that If it rubs it might select or deselect the hubs, proving quite annoying

I'm so sure that I won't break a 22 spline axle, that I'm going to just do it and if I break a 22 spline I'll buy the read gear set and get bigger axles made. If made from HyTuff, I think I'll still break the bolts first.

I'm yet to get prices, but is anyone keen, I'm going to put a total guess on it costing around $500-800 total.

So you are planing on getting 22 spline axles, used with double tough sierra cv's? I currently use vitara hubs with no spaces (i grinded down the lip) I do have a set of drive flanges which I could try to keep the hubs permately locked in and the stub can stick out the end. I am def keen total cost should be under 1k with the double toughs, yes?

I had another thought today, what if we used the Sierra hub/wheelbearing assembaly and a Jimny knuckle? I think the four bolts would line up and we could just run standard sierra hubs without adapters. I have a few Sierra hubs, I'll give it a try when I get a chance.

[Zook_Fan]

If rubbing is the only concern why not put another 3mm spacer behind the hub?

[SierraDan]

Why not run no spacers? By using a Sierra spindle/hub?

[tanshi]

31zook wrote:

mud_muncher wrote:

31zook wrote:

Okay guys, Sierra chromo's fit. With sierra FWH hubs on (BenT's kit), there is the tiniest little bit of rub on the selector. Dan pointed out that If it rubs it might select or deselect the hubs, proving quite annoying

I'm so sure that I won't break a 22 spline axle, that I'm going to just do it and if I break a 22 spline I'll buy the read gear set and get bigger axles made. If made from HyTuff, I think I'll still break the bolts first.

I'm yet to get prices, but is anyone keen, I'm going to put a total guess on it costing around $500-800 total.

So you are planing on getting 22 spline axles, used with double tough sierra cv's? I currently use vitara hubs with no spaces (i grinded down the lip) I do have a set of drive flanges which I could try to keep the hubs permately locked in and the stub can stick out the end. I am def keen total cost should be under 1k with the double toughs, yes?

I had another thought today, what if we used the Sierra hub/wheelbearing assembaly and a Jimny knuckle? I think the four bolts would line up and we could just run standard sierra hubs without adapters. I have a few Sierra hubs, I'll give it a try when I get a chance.

depends on the size of the step at the back of the spindle, sierra is 80mm. vitara is 90mm. if jimny is the same size as vitara then the spindle would be able to slop around and rely on the bolts to hold it.

[31zook]

Thanks Darren. And yeah I was just throwing our ideas.

Bigger spacer is on the cards

[gregc]

are these things broken yet?