[squibby]

fully sick coily wrote:

hey every one just after some ideas for a winch bar
i am only using a 4000lb winch as it is all i can afford atm

I could be wrong, and I'll bet 10 other members are gonna quote me and say I don't know what I'm talking about but... but I keep hearing 6000lbs quoted by everyone all the time with no real basis in my meager research anyway. Just do a few googles, a few websites suggest 1.5 times the vehicle weight, Your sierra weighs what, 2200lbs? And as some others have said, a lot of times you don't get stuck stuck, you are more likely to have got grounded on your diffs, doesn't take much to tug your sierra off again.

HOWEVER... the one you got pictures looks like you can't fit much rope on the drum, becuase it is indeed an ATV/boat winch. So you gonna need more rope. Maybe you could budget a bit more and go for the smallest cheapest 'full size' winch. I got the Tigerz 11 5000lbs. I'll bet its on sale at the moment. I'm not recommending it, I'm just saying thats an example. If you wanna go boat winch, it's better then nothing I reckon it's got the power, just maybe not ideal.

We drive cheap little lightweight suzuki's. Lets enjoy the advantages instead of fitting the same size winch you'd fit on a freelander or some other mid size 4wd. Sierras light even for a car, never mind a 4x4.

[joel]

squibby wrote:

fully sick coily wrote:

hey every one just after some ideas for a winch bar
i am only using a 4000lb winch as it is all i can afford atm

I could be wrong, and I'll bet 10 other members are gonna quote me and say I don't know what I'm talking about but... but I keep hearing 6000lbs quoted by everyone all the time with no real basis in my meager research anyway. Just do a few googles, a few websites suggest 1.5 times the vehicle weight, Your sierra weighs what, 2200lbs? And as some others have said, a lot of times you don't get stuck stuck, you are more likely to have got grounded on your diffs, doesn't take much to tug your sierra off again.

HOWEVER... the one you got pictures looks like you can't fit much rope on the drum, becuase it is indeed an ATV/boat winch. So you gonna need more rope. Maybe you could budget a bit more and go for the smallest cheapest 'full size' winch. I got the Tigerz 11 5000lbs. I'll bet its on sale at the moment. I'm not recommending it, I'm just saying thats an example. If you wanna go boat winch, it's better then nothing I reckon it's got the power, just maybe not ideal.

We drive cheap little lightweight suzuki's. Lets enjoy the advantages instead of fitting the same size winch you'd fit on a freelander or some other mid size 4wd. Sierras light even for a car, never mind a 4x4.

yep you have no idea what your talking about.
a sierra grounded on both diffs in soft mud + suction + potential slope + angle (bull bar may be pushing mud like a dozer blade) etc etc etc will make the actual weight of the "pull "a lot more than your claimed weight guestimations.
there is a reason it is a atv winch.
fully hektic get a 4000 pounder, break it when you get into a last resort situation than post up in the wanted section for a real winch.

[Fatzook]

Here is a better way to look at it.

A 700cc 4x4 auto quad weighs 300 kg. Add a person and fuel, thats 450kg. For this, a 4000lb (1800kg) winch is suitable. Now thats exactly 4 times the weight of said quad and rider.

So you could use this as a SAFE method of calculating your winch needs.


A sierra is 1000kg minimum. That multiplies out at 9000lb. Personally, I like the idea of an 8000lb with rope ( not cable) but I've never had to deal with the sort of sticky clay based mud that is prevelent in NT and VIC.

[joel]

Fatzook wrote:

Here is a better way to look at it.

A 700cc 4x4 auto quad weighs 300 kg. Add a person and fuel, thats 450kg. For this, a 4000lb (1800kg) winch is suitable. Now thats exactly 4 times the weight of said quad and rider.

So you could use this as a SAFE method of calculating your winch needs.


A sierra is 1000kg minimum. That multiplies out at 9000lb. Personally, I like the idea of an 8000lb with rope ( not cable) but I've never had to deal with the sort of sticky clay based mud that is prevelent in NT and VIC.

perfect pete.
and most 9500 ib winches are in the same housing as a 6500ib., with not much more weight.
also i would choose the wire rope, and heres why, unless you are winching all the time, wire will last longer.
the sythetic rope, while stronger and safer when it snaps, is a lot more maintanance intensive, uv lights degrades it (sunlight) dust dirt and grime degrades and weakens it, chaffe degrades it.
wire rope is a bit more fit and forget. just wash evry now and than.
but its a personal choice.

[DarkHorse]

joel wrote:

...uv lights degrades it (sunlight) dust dirt and grime degrades and weakens it, chaffe degrades it.

All of which is true for wire rope as well just at a generally slower rate, with of course the addition of water and oxidisation as ongoing hazards. The degradation of the fibre core is also a problem because you can't see it happening.

When FSWR (wire) goes, it goes hard. Plasma rope is less dangerous when it gives up.

[joel]

^^ for the amount of times most would use a winch, i think standard wire is the better option, but it all comes down to preference.

[2stroker]

Joel said:

" a sierra grounded on both diffs in soft mud + suction + potential slope + angle (bull bar may be pushing mud like a dozer blade) etc etc etc will make the actual weight of the "pull "a lot more than your claimed weight guestimations"

Fixed:

" a sierra grounded on both diffs in soft mud + suction + potential slope + angle (bull bar may be pushing mud like a dozer blade) etc etc etc will have been driven into that situation by someone trying to see how good their winch is"

Get the biggest winch you cn afford, if you are smart you will rarely use it anyway.

[fully sick coily]

Ok
this has been very usefull thanks

max

[ms1991]

just bought a 6000lb tigerz with dyneema rope for my vitara, probably cop some shit from you blokes for saying its not big enough but nothing a double line pull couldnt fix..

also I really think it depends on what terrain your driving and your mind set,
If you go out and love your bog holes then yeah maybe opt for 9000lb minimum purely for the the fact that theres alot more dead weight for the winch to pull..

But if you enjoy challenging hill climbs that might be a little loose or slippery but alow you to get some sort of traction down but not enough to progress over that tree root or whatever, then something like a 6000lb is fine.

also recommend trying not to wheel alone, have atleast one other car with you incase it all turns to shit.

[SierraDan]

I reckon 6000lb would be okay for most stuff. Just dont be silly and go out by yourself and decide to drive into a swamp haha.

I'm looking toward the 10000lb for speed more than anything.

[ajsr]

suprisingly the 6000lbs winches are usulally some of the fastest, the reason being they use the sme motors in a lot of cases as the 8=9lb jobs but higher gearing hence less lb pull but faster speeds.

when your talking the real cheap shitter perment magnet motor jobs this is not the case however as they only run a small motor and a fair bit in the way of gearing

[SierraDan]

Yeah okay. Ill have to look into it then. Because $350 or whatever the 6000lbs are at these days is almost too hard to pass up.

[SierraDan]

I think ill go with the 9000lb or 10000lb. Faster line speed at same/similar load/amps than the 6000lb.
9000 and 10000 are the same everything except somehow its able to cope with another 1000lb?

[squibby]

joel wrote:

yep you have no idea what your talking about.

Yeah I thought as much . But then again my winch isn't twice as big, twice as expensive or 30% heavier. And I have change left over for a block and extra rope and other winching accessories so that when I really get stuck I can still reach that tree in the distance, have the protection to use it safely, and can double up to 10,000lbs with the block I bought.

Sure it'd be nice to hang a 10,000lbs - 12,000lbs winch with steel cable out front about 30cm ahead of my front wheels. I can abuse it and give it hell when I need to, but for the other 98% of the time my rig handles like a boat.

[zukenutter]

Haha, interestingly funny read.
I have always felt that winches were a bit like a diff lock, gives you a false sense of confidence and you end up in situations that would otherwise have been avoided in most instances. I understand the justifications but winches have always been a waste of money in my mind for most wheeling.

Common sense sees the smart off roader wheeling with company so a snatch'em strap and a long handle shovel would suffice for most recoveries, has always been fine for me.

That said, and moving on... for most recoveries a hand winch and snatch block will do the job.
Being that a hand winch can do the job why not use a 4000lb winch? As 2stroker and some others have said often/usually a small amount of pull is all that's needed to regain forward progress. If more torque is required a snatch block will double the pull to 8000lb (or have I misunderstood this sort of mechanics?).

I have a 4000lb'er waiting for my attention. My plan is to use the Hayman Reece hitch as a quick release mount point on the rear, I'll make a similar hitch for the front and the winch will be kept in the cab until needed.

I do think a powerful winch is great for some serious pulling/recoveries but the guys who are saying 6000 and up is the only way to go should keep in mind that not everybody has to climb the stupidly angry hill or bottomless mud pit but would like a light weight pull for the odd unexpected situation.

[joel]

^^ things are different down mexico way i spose, but i wouldnt put my faith in a snatch strap and a shovel or a 4000Ib winch up here. if you cant self recover up here you may as well slit you wrist and not travel to far from home and miss out on all the extraordinary remote awesome places up here.

like this, no good bringing a knife to a gun fight.......

[zukenutter]

^^^ Yeah Darwin/NT probably is a bit outside of my previous comments. Was just trying to make the point, as you also highlight that many people have different needs, so to rag on someone for considering a 4000 is not necessarily good advice.

[GRPABT1]

I had a hand winch when I first bought my zook. I used it once. That was motivation enough to buy and electric, that shit is hard work!

[zukenutter]

GRPABT1 wrote:

I had a hand winch when I first bought my zook. I used it once. That was motivation enough to buy and electric, that shit is hard work!

Apparently it's good for the soul.

[joel]

zukenutter wrote:

^^^ Yeah Darwin/NT probably is a bit outside of my previous comments. Was just trying to make the point, as you also highlight that many people have different needs, so to rag on someone for considering a 4000 is not necessarily good advice.

not ragging on poor ol fully sik, but the cost of a 4000IB being not to far off a 600I, its just good advice to tell him to save a bit longer.
i reckon if its a "last resort" tool. like he said, a hand terfa winch would be the go.

[got_bar_work]

After having a 1200p winch on my vit I would never go back to not having a winch
I have done some serious winches In my vit
I went down a track that i couldn't turn round on the hill or back out so I had to go to the bottom and turn round and winch it out
5 h it took to get me and my father in law gu out
The bottom was a meter high step
If we didn't have a electric winch it would have been a long walk back to town to get help
I don't think a 6000 pound would have draged me up that step

[Gwagensteve]

Just some comments about winching in general.

How much attention have people paid to the line speed of their winches at maximum load? From my experience, most people will stop winching before line speed drops to anywhere near where the winch is at peak load. For example, at peak load, a 6K warn pulls at 3.4 metres per minute. That's absolutely creeping and I'd say that most vehicle's electrical system/terminals/cabling won't sustain that for very long at all. (i.e 465A of current draw for a 6K, 480A for an XP9500**) and most users would assume something terrible was going to happen to their winch if it pulled that slowly for any period of time.

In any case, winching functions seem to fall into a couple of categories - "assist" winching, where the car isn't actually stuck, but doesn't have enough traction to move in the direction you want it to, and "recovery" winching, where the vehicle is bogged/jammed/rolled.

I think that what people are referring to when they are advocating small winches is "assist" winching. From my experience with victorian conditions, I'd say assist winching really requires a high line speed because whilst you're winching you're generally driving. This is where the old 8274 high mount was so good. Assist winching requires a very good brake because when you stop winching the last thing you want is for the winch to unwind back to the spot you were already in. You also need plenty of rope because you'll always want the longest possible pull to avoid having to strap the car off to another tree whilst re rigging the winch.

When you are recovery winching, speed is less important, but pulling power is important. Snatch blocks to double capacity are feasible to use in this application, where they are a PITA for assist winching.

** So another note about load ratings vs amp draw. Those people advocating 10K and 12K winches might be surprised to learn that whilst their winches are theoretically capable of huge ratings, their electrical system might not be able to support anything like that. If there is a bottleneck, and you can only deliver, say, 175A to the winch, both an XP9500 and an M6000 (warn) will only deliver 2000lb of capacity. Even a 15000lb Warn only manages 4000lb at 175A.

I've seen a few cars melt battery terminals when winching. Alternators frequently die. Cars often struggle to restart. Those of you who are using a winch as a "last resort" should put plenty of thought into alternator, battery, and terminal choice and quality. You'd be surprised how often I've seen a car on a tight which cable with a dead electrical system.

IMHO a hand winch is a "last resort" and that's what I carry. An electric winch is a luxury. My hand winch doesn't get used very often because I never go 4WDing alone and I have a fairly capable car. I also don't care about panel work so I'll take bigger risks to drive a line without recovery than someone with panels they care about.

Also, you don't get to choose how much load capacity you need when you are winching. It is what it is. A basic recovery on a medium track might need masses of winch capacity if you have, say, fallen into a deep set of ruts and both diffs are on hard ground. If you weren't by yourself a quick snatch backwards might work, but if you are by yourself and have a front mounted winch only, you might need every bit of a 6K winch to get out. We had a stuck car on the tour this year that lost electrical power in a bog hole. The hole wasn't super difficult but it was rutted and tight. It was extremely difficult to winch out of forwards due to the geometry of the pull, and impossible for the stuck car because even though it had a winch, it had a dead electrical system. However, it could have been hand winched out backwards in 10 minutes or so to a spot where it could have been worked on.

All sorts of random and impossible to predict stuff happens in the bush. IMHO 4WDing is about understand that and having enough gear/knowledge to work around a solution. Going out with a too-small winch or a winch of poor quality is
only ever going to compound the number of things that could go wrong.

Just some thoughts.

Steve.

[alien]

good novel steve =) somewhat re-affirmed my opinion that a hand winch is a better candidate as a recovery tool. (my main reason being you can hook it up anywhere, not just on the front).

Moph on here had a little electric boat winch in his sierra which nearly pulled him out of a bog hole he was chassis deep in. We hooked it to the back of his car and anchored it to a nearby tree - it pulled him back a tiny bit then ran out of guts (and even my zuk snatching wouldnt get it out). In the end the solution was to spend 3hrs digging in the mud and packing under the wheels as well as a few metres down the track for a reverse recovery from my zuk.

If he'd carried a hand winch it would have been out in 15mins =) lol

[SierraDan]

What about driving up a 3m 85° wall?

Edited

[got_bar_work]

More right foot

[SierraDan]

Edited. Read again.

[Gwagensteve]

SierraDan wrote:

What about driving up a 85° wall?

That's assist winching assuming the car isn't also dragging on something. Load on the winch will be somewhat less than the weight of the car, so assuming a sierra, something under 2k.

Grimbo took video years ago of Tim Hardy on the last waterfall of upper Helldorado. It couldn't be driven (at that time) with his wheelbase, and he had a very faulty winch that wouldn't pull to save itself. His technique was to hook the winch up and pull it as tight as it could go, then drive until the car went vertical sitting on its back wheels, then winch the front wheels back down onto the rock, then drive the car vertical again, and repeat.

It was a pretty cool bit of video. I don't have it, but for reference, this is the waterfall (with Brent from Trailtough's crustacean).



Steve.

[alien]

he must have had a lot of faith in the brake on the winch!

[Gwagensteve]

From memory, I'm not even sure the brake was holding - it certainly looked very sketchy.

Steve

[zukenutter]

Steve I think you've cleared this discussion up by adding "Assist" winching and "Recovery" winching. Now this thread is getting better.

JrZook carries a cable puller similar to the one below. It reminded me of some recoveries I saw using these back in my Suzuki 4WD Club of NSW days. Very effective, super cheap, and compact. I think this is a great lightweight option for the odd "ASSIST" winching.